This thread is more of a brainstorm, rambling, chatting thread, I currently don't need any direct help as such
When I set out to play Osu! I made it my goal to get so good at this game that I will be able to play Mazzerin maps, especially this one:
However, I also started working on my first map yesterday and found that I really enjoy mapping. So I made myself a mapping goal/plan and I'm here to ask for people's opinion on how likely I am to find someone that will make the extra difficulty for my planned 6th ranked map...let me explain.

Currently, I suck at mapping, that's just a fact, but I'm committed to changing that. My plan right now is to get 5 songs ranked within a couple of months (2-3 months, I'm a security guard currently furloughed on Corona so I have all the free time in the world until the nightclubs open again, I can pretty much map full-time if I wanted to), with the 4th being a metal map and the 5th being tech.

So far so good...but here comes the difficult part.

I want to map this beautiful piece of music as my 6th:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7c2BkMegYwA

I see tremendous potential in this song. I think it is a musical masterpiece of the highest order, criminally under-appreciated and in need of more exposure. I also think it lends itself to becoming one of the hardest maps in Osu!, up there with Technical Master and the likes.

Problem is, it will be probably take me a year to get the skill to play something like that, even if I keep improving at the fast pace I currently do (and if I slow down it will take way longer than that) and it would take me many, many years before I'd be able to map such a difficult and technical song for Extra difficulty (and anything less does it a disservice).

That means I either need to wait until like 2022 before I could even think about mapping this or I need a collab artist.

Unfortunately, there are probably very few people out there that would be willing to put so much work into a stupidly hard 8* tech+rock map with insane guitar solos for pretty much 8 minutes straight, with variable BPMs and possibly even time signatures.

The only thing I could think of to compensate for this is to make 2 difficulties for that person's 1, so that at least my efforts if not my results will be comparable to this hypothetical mapping master. I would make the 4* and the 5* versions, they would make the 'true' difficulty (whatever that ends up being, I would guess 8-9*).

So my question is as follows:

Do you think there's ANYONE out there that would be willing to undertake such a monstrous collab project with a small-time mapper with only a handful of ranked maps? Also, would I even deserve any credit in the shadow of such a person?

I'm not going to be that guy that just goes around and posts threads 'PLZ MAP DIS SO GUD' I want to actually do something to make it happen, but this is the best I can do within the foreseeable future.

I'm asking this question because if you said 'yes' (sincerely of course) that would give me a huge boost and a lot of motivation to keep practicing. The thought that I could see the likes of White Cat, Tuna, idke, cookiezi etc. playing this map in the not-so-distant future excites me a lot.

If it's a 'no'...well, at least I'm not getting my hopes too high .

What do you think?

While, yes, it is theoretically possible to rank 5 maps in 2-3 months, it is practically impossible since learning mapping itself takes about that time, plus the modding + finding 2 Beatmap Nominators (explained at the end of this post, along with some other things) to get your map ranked which can be problematic if you don't have reputation, and even more problematic if the map is somewhat controversial. What I'm saying here is that the timeframe you put is too small, maybe consider 6 months to 1 year or even more time.

Before getting to the main point, which is the song you want to map, I want to clarify that you don't need the skill to play anything you map. For example, I can play 5* maps at most, but I can map 7* or higher without much problems. All you need to know is what is reasonable and what isn't.

Now, about the song itself, it would be pretty hard to map. It wouldn't be impossible, however for a beginner mapper this would be pretty painful. Try some simpler things first, songs that aren't too long and doesn't have much of a complicated rhythm. Consequentially, you can apply the knowledge to more rhythmically complex songs. TLDR just keep mapping

You also mentioned that since you don't think you would be able to map the top diff, you would ask for a GD (guest difficulty) and, I can't guarantee you someone would make, but you could always try Beatmap Projects (pls read the rules tho).

So... In my opinion, yes, you can rank 5 maps, you can map this song, however you gotta be patient and stay motivated. Mapping takes time and effort and it's pretty common to see people give up, but you need to stay strong. Additionally, you can always map any song you want independently of your mapping skill. If you think it's good enough, post your maps to Modding Queues (also read rules) and wait for people's feedback (which you cannot take too personally). If the map is good enough to the community, BNs may also nominate it.


now i'm gonna explain some terms


Alright, this should be all. That's pretty overwhelming information but I hope you understand. If you have any questions, just reply or hit my DMs.

Thank you for the answer.

So are you saying that even with dedication and the willingness to sink the hours in, I still couldn't move that fast because I rely on other people to get the maps ranked (BMs, modders etc.)? That is obviously not something I can control, but as for my part, you might be surprised how quickly I can learn things if I'm really driven. It took me about a month to go from playing the tutorial to getting B's and A's on some 4* songs and many more passes, so I'm confident I can learn fast.


I appreciate that I currently could not map something like this, but would you say I still couldn't map it after 5 ranked maps and 6 months (or more) of mapping experience? If you take a look at my current WIP map, you can see that it's exactly the sort of map you recommended I start with: short and rhythmically simple (other than it having some sneaky time signatures, but I already fixed that). I wouldn't even touch How Darkness Spread right now lol. That's why I made myself a target of 5 ranked maps, the Napra song being the 6th.


I've already put my map up for multiple modding queues and already worked on my first set of feedback.

I've also already read all the articles you linked, but thank you anyway As you can see, I'm quite committed.

I can get why you would assume you could make good maps as fast as you were able to climb difficulty levels by playing. However, in contrast to playing wherein the more you play=the better you get, you actually don't get good at mapping just by mapping more. You have to look at what makes a beatmap decent and consider all the components that contribute to it being considerably rankable, like playability, spacing emphasis, rhythm choice, structure, flow, aesthetics, a whole lot more, along with what's considered acceptable and what's frowned upon and controversial. It also take a lot of time to form your own unique style of mapping. Not trying to downplay you, but I don't think there is a single person who has ranked a map in their first 2-3 months of mapping, and I don't think you can, too.

As for BNs, they are hella picky when it comes to nominating maps. Most won't even look at your map if they see that you only have very few pending/WIP/graved maps since it's a sign of inexperience. They have pretty high quality standards and it takes a lot of time to make a map that will fit their standards. Same goes for most modding queues as well, however there's also a good number of queues aimed towards beginners. Putting your maps in said queues will be a great help to notice what you're doing right/wrong as they are more experienced in mapping.

On top of learning how to place circles good, you also have to learn how to hitsound your maps, which is a very tedious process (for me, at least). I guess you can request ppl to hitsound your maps, but that's not very likely if you're a new mapper.

If you haven't yet, you should watch pishifat's videos on mapping. They really helped me when i started mapping

Anyways, good luck man. Hope I didn't sound too aggressive lol

Naaah you're good dw, not even close to aggressive.

I get what you're saying and it makes sense. I wasn't sure what to expect, to me, 3 months sounds like an eternity.

Most of my time is spent gaming atm due to the current circumstances so 3 months for me (assuming things stay the way they are) is a lot more actual hours spent doing this than most people would be willing to invest so as I said to Blackeei, you might be surprised how quickly I can learn if I really want to (and I really, REALLY want to right now ).

Since modders and BNs are slow apparently, I will try to work on multiple maps and join every queue that at least tolerates beginners. If a BN looks at my profile they will see no ranked maps yet, but:

1. There has to be a first, right? So they can't be too elitist about it (I would hope). Everyone has to start somewhere. When I say 'elitist' I don't mean that they should lower their standards for me, I just mean what you were saying: inexperienced, so they won't even look at it, which I think is stupid (WE DON'T WANT MORE PEOPLE WORKING ON BEATMAPS SCOFF )

2. They will see that at least I'm dedicated as a beginner, they will see that all of my maps have multiple modding discussions and that I'm very active, so they might 'give me a chance'.

As for style, I'm a Mazzerin fanboy so my dream is that one day he will notice me and I can learn something from him (idk how that would even happen but yaknow, a man can dream right?).

About controversial stuff, Mazzerin himself was very controversial at the start from what I gathered. I'm not saying I'm here to set new standards, but I am the sort of guy that will try to willingly ignore conventions if I think they are stupid (which I don't right now, not experienced enough yet). Even from my limited knowledge of the Osu! community I can tell that sometimes they start controversies about things that are perfectly legit, like Vaxei, White Cat and Mazzerin, so to me, controversial alone doesn't necessarily mean bad.

Of course, if my first dozen of maps get criticized, that's probably because I fucked up, not because I'm some mapper revolutionary, but later I might get a bit tough headed if I get some success and I think I know what I'm doing (which I don't yet).

thefightingman wrote:

1. There has to be a first, right? So they can't be too elitist about it (I would hope). Everyone has to start somewhere. When I say 'elitist' I don't mean that they should lower their standards for me, I just mean what you were saying: inexperienced, so they won't even look at it, which I think is stupid (WE DON'T WANT MORE PEOPLE WORKING ON BEATMAPS SCOFF )

It's one of the more difficult things to get started with. I'd like to think that most BN aren't biased with their decision making, but it's also clear that experienced mappers with direct connections to BN will be able to get theirs ranked much faster and possibly, easier. For example, Monstrata is a really popular mapper that has sadly quit a few years ago. He's extremely talented, but has some incredibly low effort shitpost maps that constantly get ranked when half of them barely meet the ranked standards. Otherwise, he's made some incredibly popular maps today such as his Aspire 2016 entry, A-L-I-E-N, Amazing Break, etc... Regardless, there's a clear bias for his work as nearly everything he puts out is instant ranked even if it's meant as a joke. This includes maps like Bill-Nye the Science Guy Chinese edition.

However, there's also many unknown mappers that have put out extremely popular ranked/loved maps before. What you really need to do is to do something that will grab the attention of people, and beatmap nominators. Unique storyboard, hitsounding, etc...

Also being the first to map a popular song can bring you a lot of attention as well, since it's likely people will search for it and only find your map.

Regardless, it's definitely possible to build up hype and reputation around your work even if you're new. Dream big and be active and passionate in what you're doing

Thanks so much for your answer!

I know absolutely nothing about storyboards, not even as a player since I always play with 100% background dim (what can I say, I'm a sad tryhard lol). Is that REALLY necessary?

Of course, I'll do hitsounds (once I figured out how they work xD).

About hype: I need 5 hypes if I want my maps to get ranked, right? How would I go about generating that? Can I just put my own map on in the middle of a 4* lobby (assuming it's been thoroughly modded and I'm confident it's fine) and ask for hypes? Is that an acceptable thing to do?

thefightingman wrote:

I know absolutely nothing about storyboards, not even as a player since I always play with 100% background dim (what can I say, I'm a sad tryhard lol). Is that REALLY necessary?

Yes.

Just like how combo colors and custom hitsounds, storyboard has been given little attention to players, but that's where the beauty of the map appears. Storyboards requires lots of effort with very limited features in the editor to the point that people have to make a third-party program to do but still not enough. I'd like to say that storyboard is the most underrated part of this game that half of the community may not even know who 11t, Exile-, Damnae, or PoNo are. R.I.P 11t ;-;

thefightingman wrote:

About hype: I need 5 hypes if I want my maps to get ranked, right? How would I go about generating that? Can I just put my own map on in the middle of a 4* lobby (assuming it's been thoroughly modded and I'm confident it's fine) and ask for hypes? Is that an acceptable thing to do?

Yeah lobby is one of the answer, but if your map is actually good (not just decent), 10+ hypes are literally nothing special. You can also get hypes by asking for mods in Modding Queues, but the chance is slightly lower since people there have standards.

If it's underrated then why is it necessary? I genuinely could not care less about storyboards as a player, the few times I turned them on they were just distracting me from the game and caused way too much visual clutter. I would like to go ahead and state I actively dislike storyboards. Plus, downloading a storyboard is extra space and when you have hundreds of maps that adds up very quickly. I only care about the music and the map, all the visual fluff is irrelevant (to me).

I understand that you like them, but are they genuinely essential to get my maps ranked? I could be convinced to pay someone to make a storyboard for my first map (just to get me noticed), but if I have to do it for every map then my enthusiasm just got a big hit, because that sounds like way too much work even for me. I assume I would need to learn video editing, photoshop and whatnot and honestly fuck that shit.

Maybe it's some 5 digit+ thing, when you go back to an easy map for fun/S ranks/top score you turn on storyboards, because you're so good that even with all that visual clutter you can still easily FC the song. My 5 digit friend does that sometimes when he comes down to my level, but when I see him play anything difficult he always plays with a black screen.

Oops I really don't even think of what I said first, storyboard is not necessary, you can even rank anything without the help of storyboard.

But even with that it doesn't stops everyone from appreciating storyboard. Most players play with 100% dim, but there are still people who plays with 0% dim cuz just like I stated before, that's where the rest of the beauty and effort come from. For you, visual may not important, but for us mappers, it is. If people doesn't care about visual then why even bother wasting effort to put combo colors or custom hitsounds? And even more to just a storyboard?

An uninvited stranger suddenly appear.

I just wanna say that experienced mapper have advantages because they are ... well, experienced. Not only because people already recognize them, but because they know how to map better than unexperienced one. So, being new to mapping and aiming to rank don't have these advantages.

What people mostly disagree with you here is you aim to rank 5 beatmap in 2-3 months, because rank 5 beatmap in 2-3 months require alot of hard work, especially the polishing (aka need asking alot of mod. When I said alot, that's mean ... really alot). Some people here already told you why.

As for your question about another mapper that willing to take a collab with small timer mapper, of course there's a chance. However, keep in mind that they have theirs consideration like "I don't like the music" or "Not worth my time" etc etc.

Just keep enjoy mapping. Aim it to rank for motivation, but don't expect too high. If you can reach your goal, then that's a good news. Good luck!

Cuma Iseng wrote:

An uninvited stranger suddenly appear.

Bro, you and everyone else who at least somewhat knows what they are talking about is officially invited to this thread thanks for stopping by.

I can appreciate that my aim is unrealistic, but not because I can't do it, but because I rely on others to get it to ranked status and to get feedback on improving (both the map and myself) who are busy with other stuff. That said, I'm 100% confident that were it not for these limitations I could wow all of you on how quickly I can learn (it's kinda my 'thing' and I've done it before many times).

About visuals: Obviously not everybody is like me and people like yourself enjoy visuals and that's totally fine of course. With more experience I think I will be able to incorporate more visuals into my maps. In the meantime I want to focus on what actually gets a map to ranked, style points come later.

That said, hitsounds are not visuals and I do think they are important and ofc I will put work and effort into those as well.

Also, when Zelzatter Zero said that 10 hypes are nothing special if the map is good, how would people even find it (so that they could hype) without me actively promoting it?

thefightingman wrote:

Also, when Zelzatter Zero said that 10 hypes are nothing special if the map is good, how would people even find it (so that they could hype) without me actively promoting it?

You just get it even without doing anything as long you're in the Known Mappers category such as: Sotarks, Monstrata, fanzhen0019, Kibbleru, Cheri, HabiHolic, etc etc etc...

But for us no-names, we have to get the hypes through modders in Modding Queue and sometimes random users just shoot some. If you really want some hypes then yea, as ZZero said lobby is a good place to get some or in #modreqs, #modhelp or asking random player to play your maps / give a hype.

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SB:
And I don't really understand why there's no mapper who didn't even bother pointing out why SB is a good thing. Like, if you really love the song and you want them (the players) to feel the same, that's where the storyboard comes in to do the job. Think about it, what's the point of the music videos of every song you play in YT? It's to send a visual message to the people right?

Personally, I'd like all of my ranked maps to have storyboard in them.

As I said, I play with 100% background dim because I'm a sad tryhard. I get way more out of an extra 1-2% acc in terms of dopamine than some fancy storyboard in the background. If I want to watch a music video I'll watch a music video. If I want to click circles I'll click circles. I can't do both at the same time.

thefightingman wrote:

As I said, I play with 100% background dim because I'm a sad tryhard. I get way more out of an extra 1-2% acc in terms of dopamine than some fancy storyboard in the background. If I want to watch a music video I'll watch a music video. If I want to click circles I'll click circles. I can't do both at the same time.

Maybe for you, but not for all of us. If you ever watch any Project Diva or Osu!Tatakae!Ouedan/Elite Beat Agents (the game which osu! nowadays is inspired of) gamplay you will know what we mean, when in that game you are obligated to literally play with 0% dim and bunches of PV rendering in real time regardless of lags. In fact, storyboard exist initially because people want to experienced those things, as this game in originally a PC emulator of Osu!Tatakae!Ouedan/Elite Beat Agents.

Yes, visual is annoying, but it doesn't mean you must not have one.

make friend bn