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Regarding the "No Fail" Mod

posted
Total Posts
7
flowl
15 posts
Joined April 2019
Topic Starter
flowl
If someone makes it to the end of a map without ever having their hp fully drained, then I believe that the game should treat the replay/scoring as if the player wasn't using the NF mod, even if they were.

That way when you put on NF because you have low confidence in your playing, you don't have to replay it without NF once you realize that you can finish the map just fine.

It could also help more skilled players who are trying to get through very difficult parts of the map and are afraid of failing but end up not failing. But those players when trying to recreate the run now without NF end up fumbling under the new pressure of not having the NF safety net, the player gets shaky.
CmdRed
1 post
Joined August 2019
CmdRed
It's true that removing the hp drain would make the maps easier to play, but it's the constantly lurking health bar and the possibility of losing that makes finishing the map feel much more rewarding.

It also indicates if a map is far too difficult for new players, and helps them to learn the basics before playing challenging maps. Also, if your pondering the possibility of the only the skilled players getting this NF buff, then that would cause less skilled players to feel disadvantaged, and there's also the problem of deciding who is skilled enough to get the buff.

Additionally, if this buff were added there would be no reason for a player to not use the game mode, since it benefits the player with no expense.

NF is more like the practice mode in osu rather than a ranking gamemode.

Hopefully this makes some sense as to why the change would do more harm than good.
Zelzatter Zero
3,975 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero
^

The NF mod itself already has the punishment for new players who rely too much to this mod: If you play with maps that has skillset far out of comfort zone with a terrible accuracy, and do it for a bunch of time, it will decrease your overall accuracy since the mod actually submit scores unlike RX or AU. Making the score unsubmitted when HP reaches 0 in this case will take advantage for newbies and make experienced players feel disgraced when they accidentaly fail at the end of a map.

I don't see how it should be implemented at all.
Last edited by Zelzatter Zero , edited 1 time in total.
Lights
683 posts
Joined December 2016
Lights
I feel like this has been brought up a million times.

but no, no-fail should not be viable for serious play, removing the tension of pass / fail subjectively lowers difficulty. players should not be allowed to use a safetynet unpunished in rankings, otherwise it becomes objectively incorrect not to use that safety net.

Use the safety net with a penalty or accept that you can't have a safety net ranked score attempts if you ever want to make any serious headway through the rankings
flowl
15 posts
Joined April 2019
Topic Starter
flowl

Zelzatter Zero wrote:

^

The NF mod itself already has the punishment for new players who rely too much to this mod: If you play with maps that has skillset far out of comfort zone with a terrible accuracy, and do it for a bunch of time, it will decrease your overall accuracy since the mod actually submit scores unlike RX or AU. Making the score unsubmitted when HP reaches 0 in this case will take advantage for newbies and make experienced players feel disgraced when they accidentaly fail at the end of a map.

I don't see how it should be implemented at all.
I feel like this can be an argument "for" my case actually. even if NF didnt cut your score if you didnt loose HP, players still won't play maps too far out of their skill level because their poor performance in advanced maps would result in the player having a very poor accuracy overall.
Full Tablet
2,542 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Lights wrote:

but no, no-fail should not be viable for serious play, removing the tension of pass / fail subjectively lowers difficulty.
Not having the tension of passing/failing can also subjectively increase difficulty. Some people do better under pressure, others do worse.

Lights wrote:

Players should not be allowed to use a safetynet unpunished in rankings, otherwise it becomes objectively incorrect not to use that safety net.
The failing/passing system is independent from the scoring/ranking system, and both shouldn't interact. If a player is doing badly during a play, they should get a low score that reflects the performance of the play; and the scoring system shouldn't look directly at the fact that the player triggered the fail condition during the play (instead, what caused the fail condition to trigger should have a negative effect on score). Forcing the player to quit playing is unnecessary and actually hurts the accuracy of the ranking system (since it hides potential scores which could be used to judge the player's skill and ranking).

Since the ranking system looks only at the best performance plays a player has on record, instead of worst performance plays, or some kind of average performance value, there is no objective reason to hide low performance plays either.

There is also the issue that the failing/passing system judges the performance of a play differently from how the scoring/pp system sees them. You could be doing mediocre for most of the map, while still keeping you alive, and get a very low pp value; and also you could be doing perfectly on a map, but fail a few notes in a row and die, and still get a relatively high pp value (assuming you used no-fail).

In my opinion, not being able to fail should be the default mode, and the fail/pass system should be a mod just like Sudden Death and Perfect are.
Last edited by Full Tablet , edited 2 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,312 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

Full Tablet wrote:

...
^ This

But to address simply,

CmdRed wrote:

It's true that removing the hp drain would make the maps easier to play
That is not true. The map is just as hard to play. The difference is that you are not going to get the lower pp you deserve if you suck, keep hp drain, and fail.


Zelzatter Zero wrote:

Making the score unsubmitted when HP reaches 0 in this case will take advantage for newbies and make experienced players feel disgraced when they accidentaly fail at the end of a map.
But who are you to force you own ideas on players regarding how they should play? Let them choose.
Last edited by abraker , edited 5 times in total.
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