i'm not saying all of the lyrics, but the iconic ones. let's take for example colors by flow. the most recognizable lyric is "jibun wo" yet when you search it up, there won't be any results. this wouldn't apply to all songs, but songs that have a certain iconic lyric (like miiro having tatoe in it)
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[proposal] include lyrics in the tags
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Topic Starter
How would you determine whether lyrics are iconic or not and which part of the lyrics should be included though? This just seems like another thing that would cause lots of disagreements and discussions for no reason.
sounds great to me, the tags should include anything commonly referenced about the map/song imo
@Serizawa I don't think you need to be so strict about this, if there are any minor disagreements u can probably default to the more tags option anyway. this would be realised as only a guideline or small note in an existing guideline i imagine
@Serizawa I don't think you need to be so strict about this, if there are any minor disagreements u can probably default to the more tags option anyway. this would be realised as only a guideline or small note in an existing guideline i imagine
Making guidelines for optional things isn't good because it devalues other actually useful guidelines that should be followed in most, if not all, cases. It could be added to the already existing tag guideline at most but shouldn't be a requirement.
it's only "optional" because not every song has super memorable lyrics like this. if this were part of a guideline, you always should tag memorable/iconic lyrics--- sometimes that means precisely zero tags would be added and the guideline is still followed.
I mean you agree this would be helpful for searching right? so let's just find a good place and way to say it. I think it would fit fine into that general tagging rule for now
I mean you agree this would be helpful for searching right? so let's just find a good place and way to say it. I think it would fit fine into that general tagging rule for now
Making it not optional for songs that have lyrics is a problem because of the reason I mentioned in my first post: It's not really possible to define which part of the lyrics is memorable/iconic. Yes, it might be helpful for searching but should be up to the mapper (like most tags).clayton wrote:
it's only "optional" because not every song has super memorable lyrics like this. if this were part of a guideline, you always should tag memorable/iconic lyrics--- sometimes that means precisely zero tags would be added and the guideline is still followed.
I mean you agree this would be helpful for searching right? so let's just find a good place and way to say it. I think it would fit fine into that general tagging rule for now
Topic Starter
well i think everyone should decide on what they mean by iconic lyric. i think there's one than more definition, whether it be a repeating lyric, or a lyric that's been popularized. i think this applies more to western songs, although it can apply to japanese songs.Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Making it not optional for songs that have lyrics is a problem because of the reason I mentioned in my first post: It's not really possible to define which part of the lyrics is memorable/iconic. Yes, it might be helpful for searching but should be up to the mapper (like most tags).
+ lyric channels on youtube (mainly the ones for tik tok songs) have this thing in the title, where it states the title and artist but then a random lyric, like this:
Doja Cat - Say So || Why don't you say so?
this could be used as an useful guide on deciding which lyrics should be included in tags
that's not what I said, and wouldn't make sense because not every song is going to have super memorable/catchy lyrics. a good guideline for this would say "you should tag memorable or catchy lyrics", which says precisely nothing about all "songs that have lyrics".Serizawa Haruki wrote:
Making it not optional for songs that have lyrics is a problem
as for the definition thing I don't think we need one in the RC, "memorable" and "catchy" are English words that can be interpreted easily, I can't imagine any fuss being made over exactly which lyrics "count" as either of these
unrelated to this discussion but I think this is a terrible thing, mappers should have no personal say in how you can or cannot find their map when they upload it to a public listingSerizawa Haruki wrote:
but should be up to the mapper (like most tags)
Topic Starter
personally i just try to include iconic lyrics of a song in the tags somewhere. if osu had more english songs, then this rule would probably be in effect. it's sort of hard to find iconic lyrics of a japanese song because most of us don't know japanese. most iconic japanese lyrics are simple words, like "tatoe" or "nanimo"clayton wrote:
unrelated to this discussion but I think this is a terrible thing, mappers should have no personal say in how you can or cannot find their map when they upload it to a public listing
As long as I like your idea, I don't really think it should be in the RC at all.
Remember the time when some Brain Power sets has the literal lyric in the chorus for tags? People mostly will do it for memes rather than making the song recognizable for the mass (because at that point they already were), which means it's optional and acceptable. Same thing goes to your "Tatoe" in MIIRO sets and "gera gera" in Kan Saete Kuyashiiwa.
It's already fine for our common sense, just don't make it feels like we're forced to do that.
Remember the time when some Brain Power sets has the literal lyric in the chorus for tags? People mostly will do it for memes rather than making the song recognizable for the mass (because at that point they already were), which means it's optional and acceptable. Same thing goes to your "Tatoe" in MIIRO sets and "gera gera" in Kan Saete Kuyashiiwa.
It's already fine for our common sense, just don't make it feels like we're forced to do that.
This would be an awful guideline the last thing we need is more idiotic discussions about whether random lyrics in the song are important enough to be in tags or not. People can put them if they want to otherwise they won't and then the trade-off is supposedly that less people can find their map and play it.
> more idiotic discussions
have there been such discussions before? can u give example
I was under the impression most people would know how to agree what counts as "important enough"
have there been such discussions before? can u give example
I was under the impression most people would know how to agree what counts as "important enough"
DeletedUser_6709840
Tags are objective to credit contributors to a map/song, list artists, lists genres, and that's it.
Lyrics have nothing to do with identifying a song on osu! even if they're well known because sometimes songs will share lyrics. It's literally like putting "Tatoe" in your mapset tags because it says it in the song but then you get maps with it in the title in your search. Essentially, that makes putting lyrics in the tags useless.
This is similar to the debate whether "deathstream" and "stream map" should be put in tags for players to identify a type of map they're looking for. Most would agree it's stupid because it has nothing to do with the song. The tags are meant to identify the song. For a system like the lyrics to work, it would have to have it's own database for people to search songs by lyrics. Completely defeats the purpose.
Lyrics have nothing to do with identifying a song on osu! even if they're well known because sometimes songs will share lyrics. It's literally like putting "Tatoe" in your mapset tags because it says it in the song but then you get maps with it in the title in your search. Essentially, that makes putting lyrics in the tags useless.
This is similar to the debate whether "deathstream" and "stream map" should be put in tags for players to identify a type of map they're looking for. Most would agree it's stupid because it has nothing to do with the song. The tags are meant to identify the song. For a system like the lyrics to work, it would have to have it's own database for people to search songs by lyrics. Completely defeats the purpose.
this a problem with untyped text-based tags overall, the only way you can fix the fact that certain tags will completely or partially overlap with other mapsets' metadata is by completely redoing the tags system to be typed and databased (which I'd love to see! but isn't the point of this thread)Wei Wuxian wrote:
It's literally like putting "Tatoe" in your mapset tags because it says it in the song but then you get maps with it in the title in your search.
so I don't think this is a good argument here.
There have been plenty of similarly stupid discussions, for example a recent veto over diffname "Mamma Mia!" - the point is that no people will not agree what is "important enough" and you will end up with BNs arbitrarily deciding that random lyrics in the preview point of a song are extremely important and MUST BE IN TAGS OR ELSE and vetoing things based on that which is a complete pain in the ass. It isn't really possible to define "important" in terms of lyrics, especially because the vast majority of maps are of songs that the mapper doesn't understand or speak the language of (or doesn't have coherent lyrics). Things like tatoe are obvious, maybe jibun wo as well, but for something like b/1977424 I would argue "Don't hold me up now" would be important enough to put in tags but the ranked version doesn't even have it audible in the preview. beatmapsets/32046#osu/105003 "Doushite" might be important enough? it's hard to decide when a lyric is defining enough that people will recognize the song based on it.
Topic Starter
hmm, i see. i think it could possibly become a guideline, but with lenient regulations to prevent situations like with guilty kiss. another easy way is to search the iconic lyrics themselves on youtube. example, searching up "i got the horses in the back" on yt will lead you to old town road, and same with colors and miiro. and another problem is misinterpreted lyrics, especially in songs in which you can't understand a word (for example, mumble rap). would you put the misinterpreted lyric in the tags, or not?Nao Tomori wrote:
There have been plenty of similarly stupid discussions, for example a recent veto over diffname "Mamma Mia!" - the point is that no people will not agree what is "important enough" and you will end up with BNs arbitrarily deciding that random lyrics in the preview point of a song are extremely important and MUST BE IN TAGS OR ELSE and vetoing things based on that which is a complete pain in the ass. It isn't really possible to define "important" in terms of lyrics, especially because the vast majority of maps are of songs that the mapper doesn't understand or speak the language of (or doesn't have coherent lyrics). Things like tatoe are obvious, maybe jibun wo as well, but for something like b/1977424 I would argue "Don't hold me up now" would be important enough to put in tags but the ranked version doesn't even have it audible in the preview. beatmapsets/32046#osu/105003 "Doushite" might be important enough? it's hard to decide when a lyric is defining enough that people will recognize the song based on it.
a guideline means that it needs to be followed unless there is a good reason not to. this matter is so subjective that defaulting to having lyrics in tags (which putting it in rc does) and having exceptions argued makes less sense than defaulting to not having lyrics in tags and allowing mappers to add them if they find them important enough for the reasons i explained.
simply put there isn't a rc category for "lenient guidelines" - either it is the mapper's choice (not a guideline) or it has to be done except for extenuating circumstances (guideline). you could propose a suggestion rc category of things that should be done but are not needed, but that would lack something to compel mappers to do it, defeating the point of the category.
simply put there isn't a rc category for "lenient guidelines" - either it is the mapper's choice (not a guideline) or it has to be done except for extenuating circumstances (guideline). you could propose a suggestion rc category of things that should be done but are not needed, but that would lack something to compel mappers to do it, defeating the point of the category.
I don't think this needs to be in the rc. most mappers already include stuff like "iconic lyrics" or something memorable in tags already but other's have already referenced.
mappers should feel free to add lyrics they consider important to tags, but i think requiring it is a step over what's necessary. it's impossible to define what's an iconic lyric so enforcement is gonna be pretty inconsistent/unreliable
I'd be fine with this denied for now on the basis that mappers have to manage their own maps' tags, and not every mapper (+ not every modder) is going to have a good sense of what makes for useful and reliable metadata, so therefore you could end up with the kind of "idiotic discussions" Nao mentions if there's some minor disagreement in what counts as iconic/memorable lyrics
if it were the case that metadata were always managed by people who can uphold metadata standards, I'd say 100% tagging lyrics is a good thing and you'd never run into significant issues. so maybe I should be looking into that instead...
if it were the case that metadata were always managed by people who can uphold metadata standards, I'd say 100% tagging lyrics is a good thing and you'd never run into significant issues. so maybe I should be looking into that instead...