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[Discussion] Badge Appeals

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Topic Starter
Kron05
Badge Weighted Seeding in its current state has a flaw. With BWS having become a standard for osu! tournaments, and osu! staff handing out badges like candy, it's important to address this flaw.

If you can't be bothered to read the whole thing, just read the headings and the bold text.

The Problem

  1. Tournaments typically use a mathematical formula to artificially "rank up" a player based on his/her badge count, called BWS.
  2. However, BWS by itself does not take into account a player choosing to gain ranks.
  3. Players with badges have little incentive to gain rank, because badges continue to count against them even after ranking up.
  4. This leads to some players further deranking, while other players who choose to rank up after winning badges are doubly punished.

Proposed Solution: Badge Appeals

  1. A player who has ranked past 55% of a badge's upper limit may appeal the badge, and disregard it in BWS by DMing a host. (That's the sentence that would go on a tournament forum post)
  2. The actual percentage can be changed, but some hosts I've talked to agree 55% is fair.
  3. With a 55% "buffer", as written above, a player could rank past 5,500 to appeal a badge from a 10k-50k tournament.
  4. With a 55% buffer, a player could rank past 2,750 to appeal a badge from a 5k-25k tournament.
  5. More examples can be found on this spreadsheet.
  6. Hosts are NOT expected to hunt down tournament forum posts. Players who wish to appeal badges are expected to provide a link to the forum post of the badge.

A couple of hosts have already used other badge appeal methods. Huge thanks to those hosts, and I hope to see more hosts use badge appeals in future tournaments! :D If there are any questions, I'll definitely be responding to this thread or any Discord DMs.
Jessechugaga
KRON WE STIILL DON'T GOT THE TLDR THIS IS TOO LONG
Topic Starter
Kron05
JESSE THE BOLD TEXT IS EFFECTIVELY THE TLDR
xenonius
"lower limit" in this post is the lower number, right? wouldn't that be the upper limit?
Topic Starter
Kron05

xenonius wrote:

"lower limit" in this post is the lower number, right? wouldn't that be the upper limit?
Oops changed. I always mess up the phrasing lol
Jessechugaga
how to upvote forum post
Kondi
I think that if the tournament host is to go as far as to check the upper rank limit in the tournament the badge is from, they could also check more details on the forum post with very little extra effort. Which I think would allow for example separation of team tournaments from solo tournaments when considering badges. If that happens, then a badge that is not from a team tournament but from a normal 1v1 could have the buffer at like 25% or 30% instead (I think we can all agree that those badges are way harder to win). Also, the draft tourneys could have like 75% imo. I don't know if that's realistic or reasonable at all, it's just an idea, but if there's any changes in BWS meta, I think that if there can be any improvements made with little effort added, that would be really cool.
Dem
I agree.
MagBlood
add option to appeal badges 3 years old or older
layne
Posting here if anyone else wants to respond or address this.

An issue with this system is that for certain instances (specific ranks/badge upper limits/badge counts), ranking up would cause your BWS rank to decrease. Take Unknown Beat, for example (check the spreadsheet in OP for this example): at rank #8,000, his appealed BWS rank is #731, and at rank #5,500, his appealed BWS rank is #4,436. This same phenomenon can be observed in Kron05 and DUPLICATION's examples.

The effect of this can be demonstrated by furthering Unknown Beat's example. If Unknown Beat wanted to play in, say, a #2,000-#15,000 tournament and was currently at rank #8,000 (specifically, anywhere from #5,501-#31569), he could farm/rank up to #5,500 and his appealed BWS rank would decrease enough to allow him to play.

Common sense-wise, it makes very little sense to me why ranking up should effectively derank you in terms in BWS. If anyone can explain why this is okay, I welcome such an explanation.
Luminiscental
Posting here if anyone else wants to respond or address this.

An issue with this system is that for certain instances (specific ranks/badge upper limits/badge counts), ranking up would cause your BWS rank to decrease. Take Unknown Beat, for example (check the spreadsheet in OP for this example): at rank #8,000, his appealed BWS rank is #731, and at rank #5,500, his appealed BWS rank is #4,436. This same phenomenon can be observed in Kron05 and DUPLICATION's examples.

The effect of this can be demonstrated by furthering Unknown Beat's example. If Unknown Beat wanted to play in, say, a #2,000-#15,000 tournament and was currently at rank #8,000 (specifically, anywhere from #5,501-#31569), he could farm/rank up to #5,500 and his appealed BWS rank would decrease enough to allow him to play.

Common sense-wise, it makes very little sense to me why ranking up should effectively derank you in terms in BWS. If anyone can explain why this is okay, I welcome such an explanation.
nik
waa waa i cant play in lower rank tourneys cause i won too many
loveleft
loo me!!!!
Luminiscental
loo vlef!!!!
shdewz
Osu
glec

shdewz wrote:

Osu
very informative, thank you
Topic Starter
Kron05

moof wrote:

Posting here if anyone else wants to respond or address this.

An issue with this system is that for certain instances (specific ranks/badge upper limits/badge counts), ranking up would cause your BWS rank to decrease. Take Unknown Beat, for example (check the spreadsheet in OP for this example): at rank #8,000, his appealed BWS rank is #731, and at rank #5,500, his appealed BWS rank is #4,436. This same phenomenon can be observed in Kron05 and DUPLICATION's examples.

The effect of this can be demonstrated by furthering Unknown Beat's example. If Unknown Beat wanted to play in, say, a #2,000-#15,000 tournament and was currently at rank #8,000 (specifically, anywhere from #5,501-#31569), he could farm/rank up to #5,500 and his appealed BWS rank would decrease enough to allow him to play.

Common sense-wise, it makes very little sense to me why ranking up should effectively derank you in terms in BWS. If anyone can explain why this is okay, I welcome such an explanation.
To continue using UB as an example, I don't think his BWS rank should be rank #731 to begin with, but I couldn't come up with a way to smoothly bring him back down without using another mathematical formula that's kinda outside my mathematical knowledge, and would also be more daunting for hosts to use (we've discussed that part in DMs)

The counterargument ends up being that it makes less sense that badges continue to stack against you if you do rank up. The gap also discourages a player from deranking again after ranking up, so UB for example can't hop between 4k BWS tournaments and 10k nonBWS. What you end up with, despite this gap, is still an improvement to what we already have in BWS.
Floth
This would be nice to encourage badged players to farm because their bws rank might be lowered if they do, so I think this should be a normal rule in tournaments.

+upvote
Swerro
the very few players this applies to deserve to be their current BWS rank and/or even higher, they are that good
loveleft

Swerro wrote:

the very few players this applies to deserve to be their current BWS rank and/or even higher, they are that good
except me dude..
Elzix
derank cringe
Luminiscental
swerro be spitting straight fax sksksksk
tateyama
i can't play in five digit tournaments anymore and completely sweep the competition waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Sampo
agree with nik completely

thought over it again, don't agree with nik completely

a more punishing percentage like 60-80% would still "punish" derankers for deranking but not discourage ranking up
Julius Erving
no badge appeals arent good lol
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