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General RC Proposal "TV Size"

posted
Total Posts
23
Capu
osu! Alumni
351 posts
Joined March 2013
Topic Starter
Capu
With the recent discussion inside the Taiko ranking queue, regarding this map and topic, plenty of people came to the conclusion that the current Ranking Criteria needs some adjustments.

"TV Size: A song where the particular version is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening, ending, or insert song. Fan-made works are not included in this."
TV Size songs, such as Openings or Endings, are always cut down to about 1 and a half minute. To repeat, they are CUT, to become way shorter than their original version. However, some songs are just short. They do not extend the 2 minute mark. The full song is just short. If it's not cut and used in Shows or something alike, they should not get the "TV Size" mark and it should especially not be enforced to be used, as it is just not correct.

Imo this needs an addition.

From
"TV Size: A song where the particular version is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening, ending, or insert song. Fan-made works are not included in this."

To
"TV Size: A song where the particular version is used in a television program, web series, or direct-to-video series, such as an opening, ending, or insert song. Fan-made works are not included in this.
Songs that are naturally short and did not get cut for this exact purpose should not get marked as TV Size"

I'm sure the wording can be improved, so please feel free to add your thoughts and suggestions!
Greenshell
Beatmap Nominator
328 posts
Joined July 2016
Greenshell
I support this wholeheartedly, finally a good proposal to metadata RC
Hivie
osu!taiko Paragon
1,002 posts
Joined March 2019
Hivie
Yes, I support this, a TV size mark seems redundant for a song that's naturally short
Last edited by Hivie , edited 1 time in total.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
I strongly support this proposal as it alters the metadata of the original song despite having like 0 difference from the commercial tv version.
Axer
434 posts
Joined October 2015
Axer
The wording seems fine to me, I support this.
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
Supporting too.
rawr x3
77 posts
Joined November 2019
rawr x3
I strongly agree this should be put as will alter metadata and help with the RC in taiko and in general.
Staze-
72 posts
Joined October 2013
Staze-
I support this proposal
Volta
1,622 posts
Joined March 2014
Volta
+1
kanpakyin
Global Moderator
4,233 posts
Joined June 2010
kanpakyin
This is a good one to clarify things and avoid confusion.
Last edited by kanpakyin , edited 1 time in total.
[R]
1,058 posts
Joined November 2013
[R]
yas
Gamelan4
164 posts
Joined March 2017
Gamelan4
I agree with this. Have to mention that some songs are made specifically for that TV show, so the "full version" is actually that "TV Size" version. By the natural definition of the term "TV Size", people with not the enough knowledge of the RC (who haven't read how the RC defines that term) assumes that is just a term used for songs that were cut to fit the size requirements to be on said TV Show. If we end up adding a TV Size marker to a song that has no actual TV Size version, that becomes misleading and not following the correct metadata of the song just for the need to follow a standardization rule.
Hoshikuz
1,269 posts
Joined March 2017
Hoshikuz
Just adding to tags will be still good
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
using tv size on a song that was literally aired as a tv size anime opening with a video makes perfect sense lol it doesnt really matter what the full version is (plus its in tags already for the map in question so i dont see how moving that to title to better represent the song's purpose in an up-front way is bad). also not having tv size conversely makes people expect a long version, not... the tv size length... so using tv size on tv size length anime opening songs makes perfect sense
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
I don't agree with this proposal. I understand where it's coming from but I think in the long run makes it more complicated and introduces unneeded ambiguity.

Specifying it only is for cuts means if a TV size is released first and a full version much later, the tv size could end up unlabelled until a full version is released. This is true even in anime where the full version is often released 2-3 months after the TV Size has aired. There would usually be no way to know for sure for those 2-3 months whether the TV version is a cut or not.

Considering osu!'s culture of trying to rank anime openings as soon as possible, this wouldn't be good at all, and would result in inconsistency where the TV version ranked straight away would go unlabelled but later maps of it would.

This is also concerning for obscure songs or cartoon openings. The full versions are often obscure, hard to find, or only released on limited edition CDs (sometimes records, thanks Nickelodeon) years later. Changing the TV size rule to cuts only would require hunting down said full versions or doing a good deal of research to verify whether they exist or not. Every time.

The current set up only requires if you check the version matches the TV version, and if it does, it's TV Size, end of story.

The change would require both checking if it matches the TV size version, if longer versions exist, and verifying that information.

While in some cases it'd be beneficial, I don't think it's enough of a net positive to implement.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 1 time in total.
hypercyte
Elite Mapper
741 posts
Joined October 2016
hypercyte
Personally don't agree either. It would bring about ambiguity when it comes to new TV Size shows and could lead to unnecessary dqs of a tv size tag..

What I mean is, not all new anime songs have a confirmed release for a full ver (even though it's very likely).

An example I've noticed before is the kaguya-sama "Chika" ending. I thought the "TV Size" was the full length for quite sometime before the full version was announced and released around when the anime ended. This may have caused unnecessary dqs under the proposed RC wording.

I think it's best to mark anything used in a TV show as a "TV Size" since it's the size used in the show. Simply a marker to identify it's from a show.
Last edited by hypercyte , edited 2 times in total.
Annabel
Beatmap Nominator
565 posts
Joined October 2013
Annabel
hi, gonna repost my thoughts from the bn server here.

i heavily disagree with this proposal because:

1) it's misleading

&

2) it's a lot more trouble than you initially think it is



1) as nao said, and the point i was trying to make on the bn server is that it doesn't make sense to not use a tv size marker on a song that was literally made for a show, to be that size. it's more misleading to not have it because then it's questionable as to why this particular song didn't have it, and what other songs will be forced into the same category.

-> for inferno's case, not using tv size gives people the expectancy that it would be longer than 1:30m (tv size) but.. it's just the same length.. that was used in the show..

2) standardization exists for this very reason. nobody can tell the future, what if someday a longer version of inferno exists? then how would the two versions be differentiated? it would be totally inconsistent. changing the tv size rule like this opens up doors for problems, and misinterpretations. (ie having to look and see if there's a full version, the specific length of a song, etc)

i feel as though songs like inferno are a special case, which don't appear to happen that often. creating a clause like this for something that happens so rarely does not seem beneficial in the long run because it messes things up for pretty much everything else the other 99% of the time.
Hoshikuz
1,269 posts
Joined March 2017
Hoshikuz
I understand what you want to say
but I think it has other troubles

eiri- wrote:

not using tv size gives people the expectancy that it would be longer than 1:30m (tv size) but.. it's just the same length.. that was used in the show..


How about cut songs? They don't have any marker but even it can be shorter than 1:30m

eiri- wrote:

nobody can tell the future, what if someday a longer version of inferno exists? then how would the two versions be differentiated? it would be totally inconsistent. changing the tv size rule like this opens up doors for problems, and misinterpretations. (ie having to look and see if there's a full version, the specific length of a song, etc)


https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmaps/artists/73
How about Leaf's songs?
https://i.imgur.com/XKz661e.png
This album was released in August 2018 (C94), then we shouldn't use (extended ver.) marker, as the official one doesn't have it.


yes we should discuss this at this link :|
Nitrous
1,206 posts
Joined October 2015
Nitrous
TV Size is a community jargon as being a short or cut version of a song. It doesn't make sense as to why it would be enforced to songs that aren't from television shows to begin with from an outsider's perspective. Adding "tv size" to tags would make sense if we're trying to disambiguate a full version of a song from a cut version of it that is within 1 minute length.

As for my case, I disagree using "TV Size" on this set Shimakaze (CV: Hayami Saori) - Jiyuu no Akatsuki as it is from a video game. There exists a full version of it too.

In short, I agree with this proposal.
MBomb
MBomb
In pretty strong disagreement with this proposal, for reasons similar to what Noffy said. Cartoons especially, the song was most likely made for the cartoon in a lot of cases, but you never know for sure (and even if it was, you never know for sure that a full version wasn't made later on). I think the logic of "if it was used in a TV show opening or ending, it should use TV Size" is quite common sense, whereas this needlessly complicates things.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
these arguments are dumb because it just depends how you interpret the "TV Size" tag

the words "TV Size" undeniably mean that the song is the size used from TV, but what's not clear is whether that "size" is different from the size of the full song. proposal says "yes, it means it's different", current RC does not imply this.

here's the solution: pick one and run with it because clarity comes from consistency here. this thread is so overthought

(and to "pick one", just see what the common understanding has been for years...)
MBomb
MBomb

clayton wrote:

these arguments are dumb because it just depends how you interpret the "TV Size" tag

the words "TV Size" undeniably mean that the song is the size used from TV, but what's not clear is whether that "size" is different from the size of the full song. proposal says "yes, it means it's different", current RC does not imply this.

here's the solution: pick one and run with it because clarity comes from consistency here. this thread is so overthought

(and to "pick one", just see what the common understanding has been for years...)


I mean it's not exactly been years, since the metadata ruling was only changed less than 2 years ago iirc, but yeah, honestly I think just sticking with the current RC makes sesne as it's a lot more simple generally and easier to comprehend.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
past the "agree" spam at the beginning, people made some pretty strong counterarguments against the proposal. most important is likely the one about full versions being released later than original air date, since that'd lead to varied metadata for the same song after a full version is released

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