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[Proposal (Osu Standard)] Intuitive Reverse Arrow Movement?

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OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360
Proposal: Adding a Rule
A reverse arrow should point to the direction the slider-ball will go after hitting the reverse. If a slider overlaps itself, it should move off of itself enough to tell that it is an overlap and the reverse should be facing where a player will intuitively go when following the slider (disregarding slider leniency).

This should be added to the ranking criteria to prevent unreadable reverses or sliders that point reverses where they shouldn't go.

Okay Example

Not Okay Example

Proposal applies to Standard --> Overall section of the ranking criteria.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
do any ranked maps (or maps headed for rank) do the "not okay example"?
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
because op doesn't know how to upload images or use image tags properly...


Okay Example


Not Okay Example
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

pishifat wrote:

do any ranked maps (or maps headed for rank) do the "not okay example"?


This map does.

its a new mapper's map, but I think it would help guide new mappers about how to make slider shapes.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
honestly i could have sworn this was covered in a rc rule somewhere or another
xenal
537 posts
Joined August 2017
xenal

Nao Tomori wrote:

honestly i could have sworn this was covered in a rc rule somewhere or another

I would assume this is covered by "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end." This is supposed to disallow a slider body to go back to perfectly overlaps itself. Because reverse arrow facing the wrong way implies the slider goes back on himself, even if it's for a very very short moment, my opinion is that this rule applies.

Imo there is no needs to add a rule if it is only to guide new mappers because new mappers shouldn't be experimenting with this complex slider mechanics so early in their mapping in the first place. No ranked maps does it, so they also shouldn't be guided to think this is a normal thing as well.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

xenal wrote:

Nao Tomori wrote:

honestly i could have sworn this was covered in a rc rule somewhere or another

I would assume this is covered by "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end." This is supposed to disallow a slider body to go back to perfectly overlaps itself. Because reverse arrow facing the wrong way implies the slider goes back on himself, even if it's for a very very short moment, my opinion is that this rule applies.

Imo there is no needs to add a rule if it is only to guide new mappers because new mappers shouldn't be experimenting with this complex slider mechanics so early in their mapping in the first place. No ranked maps does it, so they also shouldn't be guided to think this is a normal thing as well.


I feel like it should be an rc edit to the rule you mentioned then because technically the not okay example is readable, it just flips the reverse arrow.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
xenal, "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end." does not mention anything about reverse arrow, just the path the slider takes. Even if you argue reverse arrow is part of the path, that wouldn't work. Reverse arrow is indicates direction of path and it is located on the path, but it is not the path.

Even if the reverse arrow is pointing in the wrong direction, the path is still technically clear and visible because a veteran player should know that the presence of an arrow indicates a reversal of direction. It's unexpected that it is pointing in the wrong way, but it can't indicate anything else. It's a reading gimick that works according to current ranking criteria.
Last edited by abraker , edited 10 times in total.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

abraker wrote:

...Even if the reverse arrow is pointing in the wrong direction, the path is still technically clear and visible because a veteran player should know that the presence of an arrow indicates a reversal of direction. It's unexpected that it is pointing in the wrong way, but it can't indicate anything else. It's a reading gimick that works according to current ranking criteria.


Going on this logic I think this should be a rule for lower diffs (Easy, Normal, Hard) because it should be facing where the cursor goes.

It could also be a guideline for Insane and Experts.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
looks good to me if it's not covered already
xenal
537 posts
Joined August 2017
xenal
Apparently because people can't use the common sense rule anymore I guess you can throw that rule in.

RC wrote:

The slider reverses arrow must point in the direction where the slider ball will head. Manipulating sliders to obtain a slider reverse arrow pointing in the different direction than the intended one should not be used. Don't be firetrucking dumb.
Last edited by xenal , edited 1 time in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker

xenal wrote:

RC wrote:

The slider reverses arrow must point in the direction where the slider ball will head. Manipulating sliders to obtain a slider reverse arrow pointing in the different direction than the intended one should not be used. Don't be firetrucking dumb.


I argue that it would still be allowed under this RC. At the very instant the slider ball reaches the end of the slider it can still be considered to be going in that direction. Yay for discontinuities!



But honestly I like OsuMagic360's proposal best
Last edited by abraker , edited 4 times in total.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

abraker wrote:

xenal wrote:

RC wrote:

The slider reverses arrow must point in the direction where the slider ball will head. Manipulating sliders to obtain a slider reverse arrow pointing in the different direction than the intended one should not be used. Don't be firetrucking dumb.


I argue that it would still be allowed under this RC. At the very instant the slider ball reaches the end of the slider it can still be considered to be going in that direction. Yay for discontinuities!


I imagine the rule could be something like
"The slider reverses arrow must point in the direction where the slider ball will head. A slider must travel in the reverse arrow's direction for at least 1/4 of a beat. Manipulating sliders to obtain a slider reverse arrow pointing in the different direction than the intended one should not be used."

You could also turn 1/4 to 1/8 or make different difficulty guidelenes per difficulty (1/1 for easies and normals, 1/2 for hards, 1/4 for insanes, and 1/8 for extras and higher.)[/quote]
Last edited by OsuMagic360 , edited 2 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
How will that work with kick sliders?
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

abraker wrote:

How will that work with kick sliders?


Make slider arrows point eachother (or at least roughly towards eachother). It makes the most sense to me.
Last edited by OsuMagic360 , edited 1 time in total.
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
Sliders aren't intended to have their arrows manipulated to go in the opposite direction, and if anything there's a reason why it's not seen on ranked mapsets. This is something anyone should know not to do if they were mapping for rank, it's kind of a gimmicky thing you'll see on maps that are intending to break the following rule

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Do not edit the .osu file to modify difficulty settings or insert break times in ways that are unintended for each respective game mode. Other .osu file edits such as stack leniency, slider velocity, and skinning settings are acceptable.


This kind of clear explanation on the topic at hand would be good.

The only thing to briefly touch on this without actually mentioning it was the rule mentioning "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end".

I think it'd be a good call to add a separate rule about using slider nodes incorrectly/inappropriately. There's no clarity on this specific matter and it has been done before in cases with just nodes which is a whole different can of beans to open.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

OsuMagic360 wrote:

I imagine the rule could be something like
"The slider reverses arrow must point in the direction where the slider ball will head. A slider must travel in the reverse arrow's direction for at least 1/4 of a beat. Manipulating sliders to obtain a slider reverse arrow pointing in the different direction than the intended one should not be used."
[/quote]

first part wouldn't work because what's visible depends on slider velocity

"both 'travel in the reverse arrow's direction for 1/8'"



second part more usable despite being more vague. could say this:
The section of a slider's body before the reverse arrow must have a clearly visible slider track.

this means the most stupid u can do is https://i.imgur.com/mjLxNFb.png (which doesnt look good so why would people do it?)

this also sounds stupid so i want more suggestions
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360
first part wouldn't work because what's visible depends on slider velocity...second part more usable despite being more vague. could say this:
The section of a slider's body before the reverse arrow must have a clearly visible slider track.

this means the most stupid u can do is https://i.imgur.com/mjLxNFb.png (which doesnt look good so why would people do it?)

this also sounds stupid so i want more suggestions[/quote]


First Part: Counteracting the most stupid and basing it on SV, you could say A reverse arrow must be at least 1/4 of the length that the first part of the slider is and must not directly overlap. (this correlates with RC "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders that overlap themselves without straightforward slider borders and sliders whose individual sections are unreadable cannot be used."

Second Part is fine

Revised Rule: A reverse arrow must be at least 1/4 of the length that the first part of the slider if the first part of the slider is 1/4 or slower and be at least 1/2 of the length if the first part is 1/6 and faster and must not directly overlap. The section of a slider's body before the reverse arrow must have a clearly visible slider track.

*Note that this is based on 180 BPM like the rest of the Ranking Criteria.

If anyone would like to revise this than please do so.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
this stuff about timing is way too specific for a rule
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

clayton wrote:

this stuff about timing is way too specific for a rule


I guess it could be changed to a guideline if the word must was changed to should.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
words suck for this, lets use a picture
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
Sounds great. It's interesting considering there aren't visual examples for this already under "Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end".

Also a lot of other things could use visual examples on the RC but aren't going to be specified here I guess.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

BlastTheKidd wrote:

Also a lot of other things could use visual examples on the RC but aren't going to be specified here I guess.


there was a reason why the rc didnt have images... but i forgot what it was years ago so if images makes things more convenient and removes the over-wordiness of the rc, i'd rather give it a try.
but yeah, outside of this reverse arrow thing, other image additions should go in their own thread(s)

if including an image, here's what i'd do for this topic:
Avoid slider reverse arrows that do not follow the visible slider path. These misrepresent the direction of a slider.


link would be a wiki redirect
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
+1
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
+1
Xinnoh
Elite Mapper
1,962 posts
Joined April 2014
Xinnoh
Can I get some clarification on where this proposal is going to be applied?

I would assume as a rule for E/N/H and a guideline for I/X since any other format doesn't make sense.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
i was assuming a rule for all, like the "every slider must have a clear path from start to end" rule
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

Sinnoh wrote:

Can I get some clarification on where this proposal is going to be applied?

I would assume as a rule for E/N/H and a guideline for I/X since any other format doesn't make sense.


I think that would be how it could work.

pishifat wrote:

i was assuming a rule for all, like the "every slider must have a clear path from start to end" rule


It could either be like above or an extension to the "every slider must have a clear path from start to end" rule
Halfslashed
Global Moderator
438 posts
Joined July 2014
Halfslashed
Having it as an extension of the "every slider must have a clear path from start to end" rule would probably clear up ambiguities - the way the post was worded I thought certain object placements were going to be restricted.
DeletedUser_5153421
DeletedUser_5153421

OsuMagic360 wrote:

pishifat wrote:

do any ranked maps (or maps headed for rank) do the "not okay example"?
This map does.

its a new mapper's map, but I think it would help guide new mappers about how to make slider shapes.
im not new? wat (im so confused)

anyywayyys yeah i know that maapper and well, i don't think they were reading the rules, necessarily. Just intentional manipulation of slider ends (to make reverse arrows go in a direction you didn't think it was going to go) should be off the table.
Last edited by DeletedUser_5153421 , edited 2 times in total.
OsuMagic360
534 posts
Joined June 2018
Topic Starter
OsuMagic360

icytors wrote:

OsuMagic360 wrote:

pishifat wrote:

do any ranked maps (or maps headed for rank) do the "not okay example"?
This map does.

its a new mapper's map, but I think it would help guide new mappers about how to make slider shapes.
im not new? wat (im so confused)

anyywayyys yeah i know that maapper and well, i don't think they were reading the rules, necessarily. Just intentional manipulation of slider ends (to make reverse arrows go in a direction you didn't think it was going to go) should be off the table.

I didn't mean to signal out this diff. I accidentally linked the discussion directly which defaults to the highest diff because the original diff was deleted I think.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Sinnoh wrote:

Can I get some clarification on where this proposal is going to be applied?

I would assume as a rule for E/N/H and a guideline for I/X since any other format doesn't make sense.
added like that https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3608
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
These look so good and clearer for the majority. I like this.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
merged
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