M3ATL0V3R wrote:

1. Yes and I disagree that its ideal to try to master farm maps and ignore the fundamentals
2. The video talks about how "Its more likely you will hit a skill wall you won't know how to get past cause you're kinda ignoring your fundamentals" if you focus too much on farming or playing farm labelled maps
3. If you refer to the phd video at 2:58 fundamentals are defined as "the ability to process and play circles in their most basic state" When I refer to fundamental patterns i'm referring to the 3 or 4 circle patterns which I've mention before which are circles in their basic state. In other words fundamental patterns is just the long form of saying fundamentals, its the same thing.
4. I've already explained that there is no such thing as different skillsets. All maps are made of the fundamentals. Learning 1 thing to a high level and branching out is nonsense. Different things in life require different approaches. In the phd video fundamentals are compared to a learning language "if you can't understand and process basic sentences in a language perfectly every time, you shouldn't even be thinking about reading harder sentences". Also I think you misunderstand what I mean by balanced, I dont mean equally good at every type of map. Its exactly like referring to a weapon as well balanced, the weight is in the right places in order to maximize its use. A balanced player is one who has practiced in a way to maximize their strengths. If you want to be a speed player you cant just play speed 100% all the time. There are other types of maps that are needed to balance your skills.

1. Please don't straw man my arguments. I never said anything about ignoring fundamentals. My main argument is that your definition of fundamentals is wrong
2. Yes, you'll hit a wall if you only play maps that are challenging for you to FC. I was not talking about that, I was saying you could play easier farm labelled maps. Again, you are not understanding what I am saying nor are you fully understanding what the video is talking about
3. Circles in their most basic state is simply a circle and slider by themselves, not combined into a basic pattern. Not long after the quote you quoted he says "all the different patterns in this game are built of simple circles and sliders". All you did was cherry pick and misinterpret what he says to suit your narrative. All-in-all, you don't actually understand what he's talking about which is evident from how obtuse your explanation of fundamentals has been so far
4. I don't think there's anything for me to say here. If you actually believe (for example) that the skillset needed to play a tech map is exactly the same as the skillset needed to play farm maps, there's no saving you.

Almost wrote:

I don't think there's anything for me to say here. If you actually believe (for example) that the skillset needed to play a tech map is exactly the same as the skillset needed to play farm maps, there's no saving you.[/list]

Almost wrote:

1. Please don't straw man my arguments. I never said anything about ignoring fundamentals. My main argument is that your definition of fundamentals is wrong
2. Yes, you'll hit a wall if you only play maps that are challenging for you to FC. I was not talking about that, I was saying you could play easier farm labelled maps. Again, you are not understanding what I am saying nor are you fully understanding what the video is talking about
3. Circles in their most basic state is simply a circle and slider by themselves, not combined into a basic pattern. Not long after the quote you quoted he says "all the different patterns in this game are built of simple circles and sliders". All you did was cherry pick and misinterpret what he says to suit your narrative. All-in-all, you don't actually understand what he's talking about which is evident from how obtuse your explanation of fundamentals has been so far
4. I don't think there's anything for me to say here. If you actually believe (for example) that the skillset needed to play a tech map is exactly the same as the skillset needed to play farm maps, there's no saving you.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

4. I never said they are the same. Tech is made of different set of fundamentals but there is definitely some overlap, especially for high bpm smaller spacing jump farm maps. In a video by Tonehh he says you need a diverse skillset and explains that ALL "skillsets" are related to each other and improving in one area always improves the others in one form or another. This shows that there is no separated skillsets.

-s12 wrote:

Toneeh isn't the arbiter of truth. I think he's wrong.
Every skill CAN overlap if the map in question demands it, but this is almost never the case.
Which is why I'll never be able to stream 200bpm consistently if I keep working on EZ.
Sure, I might be 100% confident in my ability to read the patterns in the map, but that doesn't matter if I can't even fc the stream section at 180bpm. If I wanted to fc said map, my objective should be to focus on speed and stamina, not reading, not aiming, not finger control, not accuracy.

Maybe if I completely master every other skillset than speed and stamina I might be 5% better off than I would have initially, but what almost COMPLETELY ACCOUNTS for my inability to play said map is because of speed and stamina (95%-99%), NOT EVERY OTHER SKILLSET.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

1. You are saying you can play farm labelled to develop all your fundamental skills. I disagree because by design they rarely test certain basic patterns because those patterns are not rewarding in terms of pp. If you don't play all basic patterns you may hit a wall because missing skill in those patterns can hold you back.
2. You cant play only farm labelled maps, even easy ones, because by my definition they are missing fundamentals. They are farm maps because they are missing certain patterns (fundamentals) by design.
3. Incorrect, circles/sliders do not matter when they are by themselves. You need at least 3 circles to capture a pattern at a fundamental level without loosing detail. The second circle captures the x,y location and beat location. The first circle captures cursor speed and angle of attack as you are travelling to the second circle and the third circle does the same capturing cursor movement after the second circle is hit.
4. I never said they are the same. Tech is made of different set of fundamentals but there is definitely some overlap, especially for high bpm smaller spacing jump farm maps. In a video by Tonehh he says you need a diverse skillset and explains that ALL "skillsets" are related to each other and improving in one area always improves the others in one form or another. This shows that there is no separated skillsets.

1. According to your definition of fundamental skills, you can't. But since I think your definition is rubbish and doesn't even follow the logic of the guy you're quoting from - yes they can. Fundamental skills are simply trained from playing easier maps. That's it.
2. There are many many types of farm maps in this game. You mentioned that farmers can't play squares? Well my 2nd highest pp play is a farm map with lots of squares. Farms maps don't have to be only made up of 1-2 patterns and I'm sure that all the farm maps together would have all your 'basic patterns' in them.
3. A 3 or 4 circle pattern is just made up of simple circles and sliders. The way you read anything in this game is by breaking it up and treating all jumps as individual jumps.
4. You can look at the story that Tonehh was telling. The reason he was getting bottle-necked was because he did not have fundamental skills in streaming in the first place. Then he only played maps that were way out of his league which meant he still had no fundamental streaming skills. He was also saying he was trying to focus on his speed but his measuring stick was how well he performed on a map that was out of his league so of course his results seemed to have plateaued. In essence, the narrative of his story was incorrect. If he was working on increasing his speed, his measuring stick should've been how fast he was streaming or how long he can stream fast streams. Don't get me wrong, all skillsets are related in someway shape or form but that doesn't mean playing everything at the same time is efficient.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

4. I never said they are the same

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

I think that the higher you get in rank you go the more the different skills in the game start to overlap. You won't need to learn EZ to stream 200bpm but being able to read AR 8 or even 8.5 will help you make your reading consistent, especially if the low AR maps have stream like patterns. That being said I think learning some skills will have little of an effect on others.

Building skills in osu is like building a pyramid, to build higher you need to build up related skills that are near where you want to build your peak. The higher the peak, the more that skills that are further away need to be built up

Almost wrote:

1. According to your definition of fundamental skills, you can't. But since I think your definition is rubbish and doesn't even follow the logic of the guy you're quoting from - yes they can. Fundamental skills are simply trained from playing easier maps. That's it.
2. There are many many types of farm maps in this game. You mentioned that farmers can't play squares? Well my 2nd highest pp play is a farm map with lots of squares. Farms maps don't have to be only made up of 1-2 patterns and I'm sure that all the farm maps together would have all your 'basic patterns' in them.
3. A 3 or 4 circle pattern is just made up of simple circles and sliders. The way you read anything in this game is by breaking it up and treating all jumps as individual jumps.
4. You can look at the story that Tonehh was telling. The reason he was getting bottle-necked was because he did not have fundamental skills in streaming in the first place. Then he only played maps that were way out of his league which meant he still had no fundamental streaming skills. He was also saying he was trying to focus on his speed but his measuring stick was how well he performed on a map that was out of his league so of course his results seemed to have plateaued. In essence, the narrative of his story was incorrect. If he was working on increasing his speed, his measuring stick should've been how fast he was streaming or how long he can stream fast streams. Don't get me wrong, all skillsets are related in someway shape or form but that doesn't mean playing everything at the same time is efficient.

1. Yes you train your skills by playing easier maps. No, you cannot train all fundamentals with farm only.
2. That's not a farm map precisely because of the squares so you are basically arguing my point. Yes its short and yes its mostly jumps but I think most people would not call that pattern farm. There's only 3 HDDT FCs with a decent amount of playcount on the map and the map awards a measly 700pp at the top end.
3. Yes and individual jumps are composed of the relationship between 2 circles. Then as you are reaching that circle you are preparing you hand for the next one (the third circle). The fundamentals are made up of considering at least 3 circles at any one time.
4. Again I never said you should play everything at the same time, I said you need need to play a variety to achieve balance and avoid skill walls like tonehh hit, there is a difference. See my pyramid analogy. I disagree with you saying Tonehh had no fundamental streaming skills. He did have some skill playing streams to a degree but he needed to improve his streaming skills to improve his speed.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

1. Yes you train your skills by playing easier maps. No, you cannot train all fundamentals with farm only.
2. That's not a farm map precisely because of the squares so you are basically arguing my point. Yes its short and yes its mostly jumps but I think most people would not call that pattern farm. There's only 3 HDDT FCs with a decent amount of playcount on the map and the map awards a measly 700pp at the top end.
3. Yes and individual jumps are composed of the relationship between 2 circles. Then as you are reaching that circle you are preparing you hand for the next one (the third circle). The fundamentals are made up of considering at least 3 circles at any one time.
4. Again I never said you should play everything at the same time, I said you need need to play a variety to achieve balance and avoid skill walls like tonehh hit, there is a difference. See my pyramid analogy. I disagree with you saying Tonehh had no fundamental streaming skills. He did have some skill playing streams to a degree but he needed to improve his streaming skills to improve his speed.

Additionally when i said "farming is not a different skillset" I meant that there is only one skillset in osu and its made up of your ability to play ALL of the fundamental patterns

1. Yes, based on your definition of fundamentals.
2. It's a farm map. A farm map is simply any map that gives way more pp than the skill required to play it. Just because it has squares doesn't make it difficult to play. Just because it isn't filled with HDDT scores doesn't mean it's not a farm map. There are HR and no mod farm maps.
3. As your prophet DigitalHypno said "all the different patterns in this game are built of simple circles and sliders". As I said before, you made this shit up on your own. Your fundamentals is just a combination of pattern processing and cursor control skills.
4. Dude, the guy said himself he couldn't stream lol. The reason his scores got better was simply he actually started to learn all the other aspects of streaming. His speed itself probably didn't improve much at all. The main culprit behind everything, he was using the wrong measuring stick.
5. All you're basically saying is that osu! is just one skill. The thing is, that 1 skill can be broken down many ways. You can get good at 1 aspect of the game but that won't neccessarily make you better at another aspect. For example, you can play DT all you want but that won't neccessarily make you better at HR. There are definitely some overlaps but if you spend too much time playing HR, you will eventually lose the ability to play DT if you neglect it. Skillsets can be made more and more specific. You can be good at playing tech maps but at the same time be horrible at playing farm jump maps which can all be placed under the umbrella of AR9 on all those maps. The formula to improving at this game is very simple: If you want to play a certain way or improve at a certain skill, you just have to play more of that certain skill in the way you vision yourself playing it. That's it. You don't need to complicate things with your basic patterns mumbo jumbo.

-s12 wrote:

I don't know what "fundamentals" constitute, but I think we can all agree starting out with simple (easy) maps is a good idea, and then gradually play more complex patterns and or get better at playing the simple maps faster and more accurately. That's pretty much it. You decide what you want to focus your time and attention on and hopefully get where you want with that.

Almost wrote:

1. Yes, based on your definition of fundamentals.
2. It's a farm map. A farm map is simply any map that gives way more pp than the skill required to play it. Just because it has squares doesn't make it difficult to play. Just because it isn't filled with HDDT scores doesn't mean it's not a farm map. There are HR and no mod farm maps.
3. As your prophet DigitalHypno said "all the different patterns in this game are built of simple circles and sliders". As I said before, you made this shit up on your own. Your fundamentals is just a combination of pattern processing and cursor control skills.
4. Dude, the guy said himself he couldn't stream lol. The reason his scores got better was simply he actually started to learn all the other aspects of streaming. His speed itself probably didn't improve much at all. The main culprit behind everything, he was using the wrong measuring stick.
5. All you're basically saying is that osu! is just one skill. The thing is, that 1 skill can be broken down many ways. You can get good at 1 aspect of the game but that won't neccessarily make you better at another aspect. For example, you can play DT all you want but that won't neccessarily make you better at HR. There are definitely some overlaps but if you spend too much time playing HR, you will eventually lose the ability to play DT if you neglect it. Skillsets can be made more and more specific. You can be good at playing tech maps but at the same time be horrible at playing farm jump maps which can all be placed under the umbrella of AR9 on all those maps. The formula to improving at this game is very simple: If you want to play a certain way or improve at a certain skill, you just have to play more of that certain skill in the way you vision yourself playing it. That's it. You don't need to complicate things with your basic patterns mumbo jumbo.

-s12 wrote:

I don't know what "fundamentals" constitute, but I think we can all agree starting out with simple (easy) maps is a good idea, and then gradually play more complex patterns and or get better at playing the simple maps faster and more accurately. That's pretty much it. You decide what you want to focus your time and attention on and hopefully get where you want with that.

Pretty much this if you didn't understand what I meant.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

2. By my definition of farm maps it isn't. There is is a spectrum of how farmable you can consider a map. This map you've used as an example has jumps as its focus and yet no one can DT it easily. Jumps, especially with spacing like this map is usually not that hard to DT but since the jumps are largely wide angled it takes more skill to hit them. HR is not as hard for this map because circle size has less of an impact on wide angles than 1.5x the bpm. I would only say a map is farm if it has farm elements for the most part but you can't call a map farm if only 3 players can achieve >600pp. Also you can't call it no mod farm or HR farm either, hard patterns remain hard for whatever skill level regardless of speed. Squares are hard to farm pp from both at a low level and a high level.
3. Fundamentals are not a combination pattern processing and cursor control skills. Fundamentals are the building blocks of pattern processing and feed into cursor control skills. Fundamentals for anything in life is defined as the basic building blocks for something. For example the fundamental building blocks of chemicals are atoms. I literally took the dictionary definition and used it for osu circles. Why do you think I made it up?
4. He meant "I cant stream" in the same way people say "I cant aim" when they miss one circle. He could stream, just not at the level he should be able to. His speed actually did improve because he is playing at the same speed but getting higher acc. To master a speed you don't need to just hit it, you need to be able to hit it accurately and consistently.
5. I agree with what you said except the last part, sometimes you can hyperfocus on one skill too much and hit a wall. The best way to improve in this case is to play a related skill like tonehh did.

I agree that for new players you should just play easy maps and go from there but if advanced players ask why they hit skill walls, I think its fine to give a more complicated answer.

Almost wrote:

2. Yes based on your definition but nobody cares about your definition. Farm maps are farm maps based on how the community uses the map.
3. This is what you said previously in this thread about your fundamentals "Once you know fundamentals you break a pattern up into its parts and move your cursor in blocks of fundamental movements". I don't see how that's any different from pattern processing and cursor control?? I may be able to perform all your fundamentals but I probably still got no idea what the fuck you're talking about so no comment on that last part.
4. Well I mean no shit he did, he went from just spamming randomly to actually streaming to some degree. I made a post on his issue and he basically ticked all the boxes.
5. You only hit a wall if you just aren't polishing up your fundamentals and only playing maps that are challenging for you. If you say "I want to become a speed player" and literally just sit there only trying to improve your streaming speed, you'll improve your streaming speed but you'll have nothing else to show for it because no map consists solely of streaming speed. It's only by taking the approach of improving your speed holistically with the focus on improving the range of maps you can FC that fit your category of speed where you'll actually see some improvements. When people become stuck, it's because they are focusing on the former (this includes the more advanced players) so a simple answer will suffice.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

That's not a farm map precisely because of the squares so you are basically arguing my point. Yes its short and yes its mostly jumps but I think most people would not call that pattern farm. There's only 3 HDDT FCs with a decent amount of playcount on the map and the map awards a measly 700pp at the top end.

OranJus wrote:

? there are literally square farm maps, some examples:
beatmapsets/1073074#osu/2250747
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/744772#osu/1570203
beatmapsets/1061287#osu/2222070

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

OranJus wrote:

? there are literally square farm maps, some examples:
beatmapsets/1073074#osu/2250747
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/744772#osu/1570203
beatmapsets/1061287#osu/2222070

First and third example is exactly the same same as almost's example. Its not 3 modable, low amount of DT scores relative to how many people play the map. All scores below 700 pp

Second example is interesting because of the HRDT FC but it looks like the squares are only at the end in a short section so its not too hard to let luck roll in your favor as long as you have the skill to pull it off. Still though, no other scores with DT other than that one even though many have played it.

IryN wrote:

the higher diffs of bass slut is modable and it has mostly square jumps.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

First and third example is exactly the same same as almost's example. Its not 3 modable, low amount of DT scores relative to how many people play the map. All scores below 700 pp

MrSparklepants wrote:

I don't think I've ever seen a thread go back and forth so much.
In short, plz enjoy game.

M3ATL0V3R wrote:

2. How the community uses the map? So your saying farm maps are defined by number of plays or what?
3. Its different because patterns are not fundamental. They can be broken down into smaller pieces, e.g a star pattern can be broken down into multiple v shaped pieces. Cursor control is the general skill of being able to put you cursor where it should be, it is affected by knowing fundamentals. Fundamentals are best learned on low star maps because you can be fully conscious of those fundamental units that make up all patterns in the game.
4. So then do you agree or disagree that he improved his speed? You said "His speed itself probably didn't improve much at all" but he improved his acc dramatically on the same speed map with the same bpm by playing slower stream based maps (results at 6:00 in the video). Does this count as improving speed or not?
5. A simple answer will not suffice because they will probably end up playing easy maps with fundamentals they already have which is what got them into that issue in the first place. They need to specifically go outside of their skillset to polish the fundamentals that are missing that overlap with their current skillset. Saying "play easy maps" is not good enough advice in this case