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[Proposal] Make a limit for longest combo in osu!std&CTB map.

posted
Total Posts
22

What do you think longest combo should be.

24(Aimod)
21
21.88%
48(twice than ai mod)
9
9.38%
96(4*Aimod)
8
8.33%
100(3 digits)
5
5.21%
120(5*Aimod, fruits filled half of screen)
5
5.21%
240(10* Aimod, fruits reached the top)
2
2.08%
1000(4 digits)
2
2.08%
2000(may start breaking some skin)
4
4.17%
No Limit
40
41.67%
Total votes: 96
ts8zs
2,123 posts
Joined May 2011
Topic Starter
ts8zs
CTB gameplay exprience could be ruined by a long combo in a osu!std map.

ss/14928427/7748

due less NC helps improving osu!std map exprience not that much.
I think a limition for long combo is necessary.

Aimod said it should be under 25 combo.
but sometimes we needs more combo than that.
I'd like to consider it as 120 combo as max.due it just reached the half of the screen.

I think we'd better to make it as rule to prevent the fruit reaching the top.


or just ask ppy for a hard limit of fruit height may a better idea? IDK
Last edited by ts8zs , edited 12 times in total.
honne
155 posts
Joined February 2014
honne
should be for debate in ctb and I don't think limiting std is the solution.
Chiru-kun
800 posts
Joined January 2018
Chiru-kun

BlastTheKidd wrote:

should be for debate in ctb and I don't think limiting std is the solution.
std and ctb ncing are two very different experiences imo (as a std mapper). so i think no change should be done for std. unreasonable ncing shold be argued in the ranking process anyway. 48 is unrealistic in reaching ranked. also, limits to 24 will negate stream experience for maps like blue zenith or ascension to heaven.

if possible, can we limit the amount of fruits remaining on the platter instead? or have the game automatically calculate the for some number of fruits, they auto-fall down and the rest of the combo keeps stacking as if a new stack?
ts8zs
2,123 posts
Joined May 2011
Topic Starter
ts8zs

renzthegreat wrote:

BlastTheKidd wrote:

should be for debate in ctb and I don't think limiting std is the solution.
std and ctb ncing are two very different experiences imo (as a std mapper). so i think no change should be done for std. unreasonable ncing shold be argued in the ranking process anyway. 48 is unrealistic in reaching ranked. also, limits to 24 will negate stream experience for maps like blue zenith or ascension to heaven.

if possible, can we limit the amount of fruits remaining on the platter instead? or have the game automatically calculate the for some number of fruits, they auto-fall down and the rest of the combo keeps stacking as if a new stack?
126 is already happend...
beatmapsets/1082123
Zelzatter Zero
3,984 posts
Joined October 2016
Zelzatter Zero

ts8zs wrote:

126 is already happend...
beatmapsets/1082123
I've changed the mode to ctb, testplayed it with AT, and oh god they did not auto-fall until NC comes which is at 03:02:618 -

There's a rule that prohibits red lines abuse due to Nightcore being obnoxious (or more generally with this context, a rule made for seemingly unrelated aspect) so I think this would too
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
There is a guideline for Easy and Normal difficulties regarding combos:

RC wrote:

Ensure that your combos are not unreasonably short or long. Combos should reflect patterns expressed in the song, such as bars of music or vocal/instrumental phrases.
I honestly don't know why this guideline only exists for those difficulties since Hard, Insane and Extra diffs should have reasonable combo length too. Applying this guideline to all diffs should solve the problem, as long as mappers and BNs follow it.

Edit: I think this should be implemented regardless of this side effect in ctb since super long or combos are not an ideal design choice in std either.
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 2 times in total.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
this is ctb limitation, so i think it should be a change made to ctb coding rather than arbitrary restrictions on standard maps. it would be like banning horizontal repeats because of hyperdash abuse or something.
ts8zs
2,123 posts
Joined May 2011
Topic Starter
ts8zs

Nao Tomori wrote:

this is ctb limitation, so i think it should be a change made to ctb coding rather than arbitrary restrictions on standard maps. it would be like banning horizontal repeats because of hyperdash abuse or something.
And such long combo more than 96 (It means this a 1/4 stream over 6 section) is unnecessary as my opinion.
Like soft-whistle for kick could be replace by normal-hitnormal or drum-hitnomal, is long combo a necessary method for mappers' purposing?

Or we may see a long combo stream competition.
Last edited by ts8zs , edited 3 times in total.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Can there be a game option that does not have the fruits stack instead? Is that the only issue?
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
ts8zs
2,123 posts
Joined May 2011
Topic Starter
ts8zs

abraker wrote:

Can there be a game option that does not have the fruits stack? Is that the only issue?
I think there already have issues in feature request like this one is from 6 years ago:
community/forums/topics/231759
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
https://github.com/ppy/osu-stable-issues/issues Try requesting it here, with emphasis on the consideration of changing ranking criteria to fix the issue and this thread referenced.
Last edited by abraker , edited 1 time in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
even without considering conversion to catch, some long combos in standard are kinda ridiculous, combos longer than a few measures don't usually represent anything digestible to the player and ignore all the game mechanics of why combos exist in the first place.

I think Serizawa's idea is best here. maybe reword that guideline to be inclusive of a few other common reasons for NCs
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

clayton wrote:

I think Serizawa's idea is best here. maybe reword that guideline to be inclusive of a few other common reasons for NCs
this existed before and was removed for being largely ignored. if people can justify their long combos with something like "this section of the song is represented by this long combo", which has been done on the ranked maps with crazy long combos, they'd be able to bypass the guideline

a way around this is setting a hard # cap for combo or measures, though replies to this thread make me think that wouldn't be welcomed either

so while i agree that some combos can be ridiculous, im not sure what to do about this. would people be open to a max of like 4 measures for a combo? or should we try a vague "dont make combos long" guideline again?
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I don't think it's the RC's problem if people ignore the RC.

hard caps are probably not a good idea as you said, unless they're very large, at which point they become unuseful. but if people can "justify" long combos just by saying it represents the song, maybe we need a better description of how combos are to be used?

the concrete reason I'd say that type of long combo usage is wrong is because it throws aside the health, scoring, and skinning mechanics specifically built for combos, and also ignores the super common consequence that splitting combos by pattern makes them easier to read and nicer to look at (or more "digestible" like I said in last post). idk if adding these suggestions to RC would do anything though if people are just gonna keep ignoring it.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
i imagine it's been ignored because people enough people disagree with it. if people agreed with restricting combo usage, we wouldnt have this concern

that, or the majority isn't speaking loudly enough
Serizawa Haruki
1,696 posts
Joined June 2015
Serizawa Haruki
There are many guidelines that are being largely ignored but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist, it's just that people don't care about them or don't want to follow them for some reason.

Anyway, adding clearer reasons as to why combo length should not be excessive as suggested by clayton would be useful so that justifying very long combo usage takes more than just saying that it represents a section of the song (which is very vague and barely counts as an actual justification).
Last edited by Serizawa Haruki , edited 3 times in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I have doubts about not "speaking loudly enough" because there seems to be a bit of backlash on every map I can remember that has long combos. it's just that said backlash isn't enough to persuade the mapper or its nominators in every case, and of course if they ignore suggestions put forward by the RC and receive no punishment, there's nothing left to stop it from happening

so... yeah, agree with haruki

this thread's OP should be edited if the new concern is about long combos in standard for reasons concerning standard gameplay.
Last edited by clayton , edited 1 time in total.
Dialect
1,535 posts
Joined May 2018
Dialect
i mean if uc has a good map with long combos then other mappers can too
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I think the argument here is that such examples aren't what most people want to see. reasons in previous posts
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
What would even define long in this case? Numerically? That would be unfair for stream maps. Time? Would be unfair for maps with very low density.

I feel like the initial issue brought up is one that should be fixed game side, as it's not really reasonable to restrict design choices in one mode based off how it converts to a totally different one. Catch already has its own combo rule to account for the fruit on the catcher.

Gonna archive this in a few days if no new discussion or conclusions are met, since the thread was mostly abandoned.
Last edited by Noffy , edited 2 times in total.
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
for my thing I'd call a combo too "long" when it no longer represents any meaningful grouping for a player-- so when it's not showing any visual pattern, not assisting scoring or health stuff, not aiding reading via downbeat NCs, etc

anyway yeah it has nothing to do with the thing OP points out, which isn't something RC would cover. i think u can close this now, I might open a new thread later with the stuff in my posts
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy
Ok sounds good 👍 archiving this one
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