Currently, this is how RC define a stream


some understood that, a stream could refer to its absolute minimum of three 1/4th notes. But most of us seems to disagree with that consensus. Some direct effect of this definition is how this is basically limiting the usage of a certain pattern in 4K Hard difficulties, for example


with current terminology, this breaks the following guideline on Hard:


…because the chord is currently 1/2 beat apart from each other. Many argued that this is too small to be called a "stream". It is also particularly easy to hit, but it becomes very limiting, especially if it needs to be done in order to close the gap with upper difficulties.

The original intention of this rule is to disallow dense jumpstream in hard difficulties, as it is stated here. So, we need to redefine a more concrete values as to what could qualifies as a stream.

My proposal is to add extra clause to the terminology for better understanding


alternative proposal


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With the change of the definition pattern like in the screenshot above would work for the Hard difficulty. I also think they are not "too" hard and give a good transition to the next difficulty (Insane) which is allowed to use denser jump streams.

So i support this change

Okay but this would mean that patterns like this one:



would become available to use in Hard diffs, without any limit. Sure, if there's only like, 3 or 4 of these double-simple-double note pattern put consecutively, then it may not be really hard to hit. But if there's more than 4 of these patterns in a row, then it may become quite difficult/tiring for a player of this level to hit them, especially for BPMs of 180 or over, as the RC is based upon.
So i'd say that there should be specified that patterns like these should be used sporadically, relative to the BPM of the map.

Indeed my post is not so much about what a "stream" should represent, but i'm trying to point out some of the consequences that it may have over the RC and maps in general, so with this change in the "stream" terminology, some other rules/guidelines may need to come up. Like this situation with Hard difficulty.

im here to bring more question owo

1. i think it might not appropriate using "beat" as a unit, since

NM RC

IN RC
using 1 beat is surely too short in 1/2, and 1/8 .. ugh .. other of my play skill, but i treat 1/8 as a burst, not a stream, so maybe change the unit to a specific or roughly amount of note

2. Personally, i think 1 beat is too short to define stream, 5 consecutive (1 beat) 1/4 is pretty normal in higher diffs, and refer to "Chords within 1/4 streams should be at least 1/1 beat apart from each other." , i think 2 beat will more make sense and can do what this guideline expect to do, using 1 beat will more like "Avoid using chords during consecutive 1/4 note patterns. However, using a chord in beginning or end a pattern is fine." , thats nm rc .w.

but another problem extent to 1. will 9 consecutive (2 beat) 1/2 or 1/8 too short or too long? hmm..

3. i think for either "stream" is defined to 1 beat or 2 beat , jumptrill will appear more often, for avoiding people abuse, and this patter break rc unreasonable mentioned in discord

i will suggest change rc to

and add rc

NatsukiFTW wrote:

Okay but this would mean that patterns like this one:



would become available to use in Hard diffs, without any limit. Sure, if there's only like, 3 or 4 of these double-simple-double note pattern put consecutively, then it may not be really hard to hit. But if there's more than 4 of these patterns in a row, then it may become quite difficult/tiring for a player of this level to hit them, especially for BPMs of 180 or over, as the RC is based upon.
So i'd say that there should be specified that patterns like these should be used sporadically, relative to the BPM of the map.

Indeed my post is not so much about what a "stream" should represent, but i'm trying to point out some of the consequences that it may have over the RC and maps in general, so with this change in the "stream" terminology, some other rules/guidelines may need to come up. Like this situation with Hard difficulty.

I think those should be judged separately on whether this is appropriate or not in an attempt to “close” the diff gap, accounting BPM as well.

For example if normal/advanced contains something like this

And/or insane like this


Then i believe your pattern could count as appropriate.

This is mostly referring to occasional uses of “this pattern” that is somehow looks harshly enforced due to the lack of definition despite being generally appropriate enough for a Hard. We should know when it is become too tedious to be used.

PokeSky wrote:

im here to bring more question owo

1. i think it might not appropriate using "beat" as a unit, since

NM RC

Long "streams" of 1/2 notes should include, at minimum, a 1/1 pause where natural to implement after every musical phrase, ...

IN RC

Avoid using split rolls or any kind of complicated 1/8 "streams" lasting longer than 4 beats. ...

using 1 beat is surely too short in 1/2, and 1/8 .. ugh .. other of my play skill, but i treat 1/8 as a burst, not a stream, so maybe change the unit to a specific or roughly amount of note

2. Personally, i think 1 beat is too short to define stream, 5 consecutive (1 beat) 1/4 is pretty normal in higher diffs, and refer to "Chords within 1/4 streams should be at least 1/1 beat apart from each other." , i think 2 beat will more make sense and can do what this guideline expect to do, using 1 beat will more like "Avoid using chords during consecutive 1/4 note patterns. However, using a chord in beginning or end a pattern is fine." , thats nm rc .w.

but another problem extent to 1. will 9 consecutive (2 beat) 1/2 or 1/8 too short or too long? hmm..

3. i think for either "stream" is defined to 1 beat or 2 beat , jumptrill will appear more often, for avoiding people abuse, and this patter break rc unreasonable mentioned in discord

i will suggest change rc to

Chords within 1/4 streams should be at least 1/1 beat apart from each other. More dense usage of chords is too difficult for players of this skill level. However, using a chord to end (or beginning?) a pattern is fine.

and add rc

Avoid using more than 3 consecutive 1/4 chords.

1. I actually refers one beat as 4/4. Not ½ or 1/8. Supposedly a “beat” is rather ambiguous too so maybe defining it as “5 consecutive notes” would be fine? 3 are certainly too small, 4 maybe so so but 5 seems pretty right to me. It could scale to any snap.

2. 2 beat is certainly too long to be appropriately defined. One beat or “5 notes” like I said above should be the absolute minimum.

3. I don’t really understand how to reply to this. The proposed guideline change is weird. How it should have ended or started with a chord, while the first sentence literally allows you to have chord within the streams? Stream-to-chord or chord-to-stream pattern has always been fine. And rc addition is also weird. It seems to be another way to say “do not use jumptrill” which we mostly use common sense to determine. If anyhow, the wording (referring to pattern on your pic) should probably be “Avoid using **any form** of consecutive ¼ chords” but it seems to be yet another limitation to the guideline. This should be mostly resolved on case-by-case basis. Based on the 2nd sentence of that guideline,
Should be enough to draw common sense on when it becomes too dense, and when it is not.

1. yeah i know 1 beat mean 4/4 , but normal and insane rc has mention 1/2 stream and 1/8 stream, if we using 1 beat to defined stream, then 1/2 "stream" in normal diffs will just be 3 consecutive 1/2, that is not what we mean, i think using X consecutive note will be more accurate, it can fit either 1/4 stream or 1/2 stream in normal diffs.

2. just kinda sensitive to define stream since im a stream fans, like i said before , using 1 beat (5 consecutive note) is fairly normal in higher diffs, if it apear a couple of time, is it a stream map? i think its not, stream should be lasting 1/4 longer and , yeah that might kinda off topic and make the thing harder .w. , idk but im fine if using 5 consecutive note

3. aa i kinda messed up, is hard to explan in text properly in different situations , forget it atm .w.

NatsukiFTW wrote:

Okay but this would mean that patterns like this one:



would become available to use in Hard diffs, without any limit. Sure, if there's only like, 3 or 4 of these double-simple-double note pattern put consecutively, then it may not be really hard to hit. But if there's more than 4 of these patterns in a row, then it may become quite difficult/tiring for a player of this level to hit them, especially for BPMs of 180 or over, as the RC is based upon.
So i'd say that there should be specified that patterns like these should be used sporadically, relative to the BPM of the map.

First of all this would classify as a broken jumpstream and second of all this pattern is as hard as jumpstream in my opinion so I'm leaning towards discouraging this pattern on Hard difficulty for longer use. However, if the pattern (double-single-double) only used once during a section i think its fine but with a note that there are no notable pattern with roughly the same density surrounding that pattern (i.e chord usage or 1/4 stream 1/2 beat apart before or after the pattern).

That being said I have these solutions:

1. Give a short break of chord usage 1/2 beats before and after the pattern.
2. Change the stream definition (for at least 4 or 5 consecutive notes, this might need further discussion).
3. Include "Broken Stream" to the pattern glossary which explains continuous usage of 3 consecutive notes or longer with the same interval, then classify it as another form of stream. Details for the wording can be discussed further but i hope you get the idea of what broken stream is.

streams should not constitute note count but rather duration.

the intention of the current definition change is very low difficulty and 4k-centric

a 1/12 5-note flam would then be considered to be a stream despite being a burst (although patterns like these tend to exist on insane and higher difficulties and keycounts)

alternative proposal

Stream: Constant notes with the same interval that last for at least a full beat that do not repeat to create a minijack.

With the RC based around 180-bpm proper discretion can be applied for intense speedcore / extratone bpms

This change in wording also allows the screenshot posted in OP to not break guidelines as the pattern does not constitute a stream

to address the issue posed by "broken jumpstreams"

rivals had quite the sufficient response by considering the simplification, "manip", or "anmitsu" of the pattern. BNs should have the proper judgment not to nominate a chart with those qualities provided it's anywhere near 180 bpm.

potential point of discussion: "but what about continuous 1/2 snaps"

with the 180 base bpm in mind, there must be an unspoken consensus that the constant usage of 1/2 snaps does not constitute a stream. While Normal guidelines mentions stuff like "Long streams of 1/2 notes..." another case could be made for the guideline below where if we would be pedantic about the guideline, chords within "1/2 streams" would be a violation.

Hard guideline if lowest diff:
" Chords within streams are discouraged. The density of these patterns is often too difficult for players of this skill level, especially when used on the lowest difficulty of a beatmap set. However, using a chord at the beginning/end of a stream is fine."

It should then be deduced that a constant usage of 1/2 snaps should constitute "rhythm" but not fall under the definition of "stream". This can be a footnote of some sorts.

>"streams should not constitute note count but rather duration. the intention of the current definition change is very low difficulty and 4k-centric"

I do agree this is particularly targeting only low diffs and 4K. the corresponding guideline and definition become looser the higher the diff is, and the more key it used, but I think its necessary to make things clearer.

>"a 1/12 5-note flam would then be considered to be a stream despite being a burst (although patterns like these tend to exist on insane and higher difficulties and keycounts)"

I think that should fall under the term “grace”:
(Grace: Two or more notes pressed in rapid succession, generally using snaps at or above 1/6.)

“Two or more” indicates any number of notes above two in or above 1/6 as grace, so 5 notes@1/12 can be called a grace by RC definition. Although ofc this definition will only works as a base level knowledge, given that we are quite used on using term outside of the RC alone. There shouldn't be any problem in this.

>"Alternative proposal..."

I don’t have deep knowledge about musical stuff so I’m not really sure here, but what is full beat constitutes? I mean, if its one beat, that is literally my first proposal on OP. if its means like one measure, isn’t it quite too much? It could’ve mean that we’re allowed to do something like https://i.imgur.com/8b1tfcC.jpg .

Why 5 notes? I think this is a neat way to add clarity while keeping all the guidelines unchanged. Like the case you mentioned about "continuous 1/2 snaps". With a defined number of notes, it could be scaled to any snaps. 5 notes in 1/1, its 1/1 stream, and so on. "One beat" is probably rather too strict when applied to that normal guideline.

Stream is easily understandable for most part, but the lack of threshold is what make it ambiguous. Even stepmania has a threshold to define a stream ("less than 16 notes"). Almost all terminology in RC uses a set number of notes that clearly define what pattern it is, so a consistent explanation might be important to get the point across easily.
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a beat would be a 1/1 not a full measure (4/1). This is probably not defined in RC so yeah.

Beat is preferred over 5 notes to give way to 1/3 snaps. If 5 notes was the minimum, ss/15043624/f1b5 this would be allowed by RC (or full doubles as a more extreme example)

Every other point raised is non-contentious so I have no reservations against them.

Sounds fair enough, I guess “one beat” feels more appropriate in musical term. Feerum seems to approve it too in earlier posts, so if there is no further objection, think we can push it soon.

After getting in touch with Rivals once more, most people were alright with the first proposal.

So following changes were made:

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/3933

lil edit because I put in the wrong one.