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[Rule to Guideline - osu!mania] Do not enforce key naming in difficulty names

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Total Posts
17
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Evening

Amendment


Rule: If multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set, the key mode must be denoted in the difficulty name.

Move to Guideline: If multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set, you must have different names for all difficulties. osu! will overwrite difficulties of the same name.
[1]For aesthetic purposes, it's recommended to have clear and distinct spread names if you choose to avoid key naming for multiple spreads.

---

Introduction


I'm assuming this rule is implemented to avoid any difficulties being overwritten, maybe also because the old website didn't support Key Amount display, and would instead only display Circle Size.

As discussed by MEGAtive (in [Proposal] osu!mania Ranking Criteria (whole draft) Post 52):
Adding here that you can't have exact same difficulty name because the filename will conflict with each other in the folder.

Player-side



There are no benefits and drawbacks, it's pretty clear on what keycount the map is from the beatmap information site.

Mapper-side



benefits
No more weird difficulty names that tries to add in key numbers.
This doesn't mean that they cannot add in the keycount in the difficulty, it's just optional.

Ranking-side


BNs to note to not enforce, but to advice to avoid complicated names if the difficulty naming is too complicated and also emphasize how two difficulty names cannot be the same due to file naming limitations.

---

Justification



There are already multitude of ways to find key count, on the website, and in client.
This should not be enforced, instead, recommended due to file naming limitations.

Those who are seasoned in mapping would already have understood this limitation but would like to name difficulties on different keys differently, this will allow them to do so.

---

Edits


17/6/2019 - Amendment to Guideline w.r.t. KeppSado's advice on aesthetic purposes (Ref: [1])
Last edited by Evening , edited 1 time in total.
-MysticEyes
Beatmap Nominator
490 posts
Joined April 2015
-MysticEyes
I'm in favor of this tbh. I kinda feel like placing keymodes in names is rather redundant since, as stated by Evening, it's extremely easy to find key count in-game and on the website.

It's a minor change but I don't see any harm in implementing it.

edit: though now that I think about it (kudos to KeppSado for bringing this up) this probably should be limited to custom diffnames only since there could be confusion if for instance a map had a a spread like:

4k: ENHI
7k: ENHI

And then both 4k and 7k diffnames are Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane.

But for custom diffnames I'm definitely for this since they'd be different by design.
Last edited by -MysticEyes , edited 1 time in total.
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Not against it.

I just see some problems: If i have, let's say a huge mapset of like 10 difficulties or more, in two different keymodes or more. Wouldn't i run at some point out of diff names? Then i would be forced to add the key into the difficult name.

Then again it's different for marathons or Mapsets with a low amount of difficulties. In the past Marathons with 4K and 7K, didn't need to put the key amount into their diff names anyways. Since it were marathons and they are free to use custom diff names.

Maybe we could put it into the Guidelines with some rewording? Like, if using an higher amount of difficulties they still need to/should put it into their diff names, while Marathons or Insanes (Which are mostly mapped with 1 or 2 diffs only anyways) don't need it. Since they can go like:
4K - Insane; 4K - Custom Diff name
7K - Another; 7K - Custom Diff name
(without putting their keymode into the diff name)

So yeah, if we can find a proper way to handle sets with a high amount of difficulties i would be cool with moving it into the Guidelines.
abraker
Global Moderator
8,327 posts
Joined July 2014
abraker
Yea no point in doing enforcing this since new website and stuff do it for you.

Feerum wrote:

I just see some problems: If i have, let's say a huge mapset of like 10 difficulties or more, in two different keymodes or more. Wouldn't i run at some point out of diff names? Then i would be forced to add the key into the difficult name.
It's not really a problem to remove it as a requirement and allow mappers make use of it when needed.
Rivals_7
Beatmap Nominator
2,979 posts
Joined July 2014
Rivals_7
If each keymode has a designated spread, the keymode should be denoted on the diffname. If there is only one difficulty per keymode, mappers are free to add the denoted keymode.

designated spread means something like ENHI etc.

idk my phrasing is good but i figures it should resolve the issue of disallowing too many different names in huge mapset, while also allowing sets like suiren to not have denoted keymode.
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Evening

Rivals_7 wrote:

If each keymode has a designated spread, the keymode should be denoted on the diffname. If there is only one difficulty per keymode, mappers are free to add the denoted keymode.

designated spread means something like ENHI etc.

idk my phrasing is good but i figures it should resolve the issue of disallowing too many different names in huge mapset, while also allowing sets like suiren to not have denoted keymode.


I'm arguing that it's okay for all situations, as long as the basic rules apply, especially "all separate spreads require their own naming scheme."

This is treating different keys as different game modes

Sure, the mapper can do so for larger spreads, but this is to make it optional, BNs are to suggest for adding a key naming if it does become too untidy. It doesn't have to be a rule
-MysticEyes
Beatmap Nominator
490 posts
Joined April 2015
-MysticEyes
Bumping this because I think it's a fair proposal that deserves more discussion.

-MysticEyes wrote:

edit: though now that I think about it (kudos to KeppSado for bringing this up) this probably should be limited to custom diffnames only since there could be confusion if for instance a map had a a spread like:

4k: ENHI
7k: ENHI

And then both 4k and 7k diffnames are Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane.

But for custom diffnames I'm definitely for this since they'd be different by design.


I still kinda think that it would be better to add key naming if (and only if) it would cause redundant difficulty names in spreads.
Arzenvald
4,058 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
not against for having change as proposed, having it as guideline is more sensible because how the site has vastly changed

(i hope in lazer, for a bigger mapset with many diffs in it, the map will be grouped by circlesize and sorted by its difficulty)
Scotty
Nomination Assessment Team
286 posts
Joined October 2017
Scotty
this sounds cool, though i think it'd be better to word the guideline like: for lower difficulties in spreads containing multiple keymodes, the keymode should be denoted in the difficulty name

this indicates that it's fine to not do this at all in the case of hybrid keymode marathons (this change would probably benefit these kind of maps the most anyways) and avoids having duplicate diffnames in large hybrid spreads (probably still better to encourage this for full spreads because well, two entirely different diffname schemes for the same map looks kinda silly).
MEGAtive
1,656 posts
Joined August 2013
MEGAtive
I agree with this. It's kinda redundant since Web and Client already denotes the keymode beside the difficulty name. I just hope osu!editor have a countermeasure for the conflicting filename in the future since this is what mainly hold back this thing (Probably Lazer would have countermeasure so I guess this amendment maybe effective after Lazer is released).
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Evening

KeppSado wrote:

this sounds cool, though i think it'd be better to word the guideline like: for lower difficulties in spreads containing multiple keymodes, the keymode should be denoted in the difficulty name

this indicates that it's fine to not do this at all in the case of hybrid keymode marathons (this change would probably benefit these kind of maps the most anyways) and avoids having duplicate diffnames in large hybrid spreads (probably still better to encourage this for full spreads because well, two entirely different diffname schemes for the same map looks kinda silly).


Kind of wanted to pivot off the reason for the rule instead of aesthetic preferences, but since it's a guideline, you make a good point on how it should be recommended in the guideline as well. I'll try to incorporate it in
DeletedUser_12001243
DeletedUser_12001243
I have mixed feelings over this. Sure difficulty names seem weird with a 7k, 4k, etc label slapped in front of them, but this could bring in potential issues. When I search for certain key amounts on the site, I type in stuff like 4k or 6k while searching so i can find it(since most are labeled). Getting rid of this label would make it way harder to differentiate key amounts on the site.
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Evening

manfan wrote:

I have mixed feelings over this. Sure difficulty names seem weird with a 7k, 4k, etc label slapped in front of them, but this could bring in potential issues. When I search for certain key amounts on the site, I type in stuff like 4k or 6k while searching so i can find it(since most are labeled). Getting rid of this label would make it way harder to differentiate key amounts on the site.


The system doesn't necessarily work most of the time, it only works for you because of the coincidence that a mapset has a "4k"/"7k" tag or difficulty name attached to it.

Ideally it could search by keys, where it will include those without these key names attached to the difficulty (note that there are maps that don't require key naming currently), the current difficulty naming search system is already flawed.

However, there are obvious ways to circumvent this that is not implemented.

Here's how you can search via star rating and keys, albeit rarely includes incorrect maps

https://osusearch.com/search/?statuses=Ranked&modes=Mania&star=(6.00,10.00)&cs=(4.00,4.00)
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,042 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Okay so i talked with pishi about this and there appeared one problem:

We can not use third-party websites or anything else as justifications for a Rule/Guideline change. So saying "You can look this up already on X-Website" is not a valid argument.

I still of course support this rule change since it was already allowed before for Marathon Mapsets, but we need to find a middle way for this.

What do you think of making this a guideline which explicit says that Marathon mapsets with multiple keymodes are an exception of this rule
Additional to this we could restrict this to a X-amount of difficulties present in a mapset.

Let's say if a Mapset has more than 8 difficulties they must use the key-number in the difficulty names.

Just an example how this could be worded:
If multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set which has more than 8 difficulties, the key mode must be denoted in the difficulty name. osu! will otherwise overwrite difficulties of the same name.

(The last part is actually pretty cool so i would keep it from your wording)

Also just realized when we would state that a certain amount of difficulties is in there, the marathon part would be automatically included, since they go really.. REALLY rarely (I don't know if that ever happened already) over 8 difficulties.

What do you think about it?
Evening
2,464 posts
Joined December 2012
Topic Starter
Evening
My argument against your current difficulty threshold proposal goes like this

Example:
You are interested on a beatmap on the mapset, you want to figure out if it's 4k or 7k

Case 1:
The map is only 4k, you can just hover over the difficulties' icon to figure out the key.


Case 2:
The map is both keys, it follows the current rules. The website doesn't support the previous feature . The only way to find out is by difficulty name


Case 3:
The map is hybrid mode or have too many difficulties, it follows current rules. The website doesn't support hovering.




Notice how Case 3 doesn't forces you to click on the beatmap regardless to find out its key count. Using this as a standpoint, difficulty key naming should be enforced on lower difficulty counts, which is contradictory to your proposed rule and also mine.

---
I understand how rules should go alongside how the website/client operates at the moment, so I'll tackle this problem from this standpoint

Here are 3 outcomes:

1) This proposal will stay in view until it's possible to search by key counts.



Key Count searching gets implemented, my point will stand as the current rule being redundant.

2.1) Key Count searching doesn't get implemented


(With the assumption that players click the beatmap)



Let's assume that players will click the beatmap if it's not possible to find out keycounts via hovering. This is where players will still click on the beatmap site and can find the Key Amount.


If we have this assumption, adding the key count searching will be a plus, but my proposed rule should be valid either way

2.2) Key Count searching doesn't get implemented


(With the assumption that players don't click the beatmap)



If we assume this, I won't pursue this further as seems contradictory to players wanting to find out keys via hovering
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat

Evening wrote:

1) This proposal will stay in view until it's possible to search by key counts.

is there an issue for this on https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues ? if not, it'll never get implemented

as for feerum's wording:

Feerum wrote:

If multiple key modes are present in a single beatmap set which has more than 8 difficulties, the key mode must be denoted in the difficulty name. osu! will otherwise overwrite difficulties of the same name.


would add a clause about different naming schemes not requiring keycount notation. otherwise, i think osu web just needs better sorting of key counts, and this diff naming stuff shouldn't be the main thing controlling it
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
looks like this isn't going anywhere

let's wait for https://github.com/ppy/osu-web/issues/4472 then return to this topic, since keeping these in diffnames is appropriate until the web change is made
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