I usually make the choruses all the same if the music is identical, with the second a 180 rotation and the third a horizontal flip on the first. I sometimes make the last chorus different though.
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Copy-paste: Your thoughts?
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erpderp http://osu.ppy.sh/b/43589
As a mapper, I have to admit laziness has sometimes been the problem... but I generally try not to copy paste even if the sections are identical. The only reason I would do so is if I'm trying to do Oibon Jumps or for symmetry purposes.
As a player, they're fine. In fact they're easier to read.
As a player, they're fine. In fact they're easier to read.
Mapper POV: usually when i map and make a copy-paste i also try to change something more, instead of only flipping. Anyway, this happens only when i get two identical sections in the song. I just like it more this way.
Player POV: as long as the copy-paste is not so highly used, i barely notice it at all. If i do i usually don't care if it fits the map well.
In other words, copy-paste is not so bad, in my opinion it's even better to use it sometimes, it keeps the map more consistent.
Player POV: as long as the copy-paste is not so highly used, i barely notice it at all. If i do i usually don't care if it fits the map well.
In other words, copy-paste is not so bad, in my opinion it's even better to use it sometimes, it keeps the map more consistent.
As a mapper, I use copy pasta at the chorus of the song, but I only use this to so I don't have to place notes again, usually the pattern varies greatly from what I copied. Although my exception to this is when I'm making a nice symmetrical pattern.
As a player, I think copy paste can be good and fun, reminds me a lot of EBA maps and a lot of the times the patterns are done so well they don't get boring the third time around. And to me, maps that feel like that are needed more than the "OMG RAPE IN THE FACE" maps, fun, without excessive amounts of challenge.
As a player, I think copy paste can be good and fun, reminds me a lot of EBA maps and a lot of the times the patterns are done so well they don't get boring the third time around. And to me, maps that feel like that are needed more than the "OMG RAPE IN THE FACE" maps, fun, without excessive amounts of challenge.
For a map with two choruses, I think that having the second chorus be a copy-paste of the first (with horiz and/or vert flipping) is fine. Though, SOME differences are always nice. For the meltdown diff I did, I copy pasted for the second chorus, but moved a bunch of the notes and sliders around so that they went in different directions and angles. So, it gave a similar "feel" but also a newer one. :3
For three choruses, I'd make the first two about the same, but something completely different for the third. :3
For three choruses, I'd make the first two about the same, but something completely different for the third. :3
I think repetition is one of the most overlooked aspects of a map. And not just copy-pasting with the occasional flip; use different patterns but with some amount of consistency in the appearance, the timing of the notes, even the hitsounds! If the music repeats, the mapping should reflect that. I've seen maps that made excellent use of these concepts without a single copy-paste, and other maps that had sections repeating 4+ times that were just as great. Too much repetition can be a problem, sure, but it's not one I see very often.
I just realized Lemon Tree fits well to that. =] (Good job, MM.)CheeseWarlock wrote:
I think repetition is one of the most overlooked aspects of a map. And not just copy-pasting with the occasional flip; use different patterns but with some amount of consistency in the appearance, the timing of the notes, even the hitsounds! If the music repeats, the mapping should reflect that. I've seen maps that made excellent use of these concepts without a single copy-paste, and other maps that had sections repeating 4+ times that were just as great. Too much repetition can be a problem, sure, but it's not one I see very often.
Same answer as usual: as long as it fits the map, I don't mind. They also fit well in refrains.
On my beginning days of osu! I didn't like them much (as you can see on that awful thing I have in my Graveyard), but... even though I haven't really gotten much better (and now that I finally sort of played OTO2 - oh god why don't I have a DS already), I can see where they might or not be useful or fun.
...I guess.
On my beginning days of osu! I didn't like them much (as you can see on that awful thing I have in my Graveyard), but... even though I haven't really gotten much better (and now that I finally sort of played OTO2 - oh god why don't I have a DS already), I can see where they might or not be useful or fun.
...I guess.
I am an original type person, so even on 3 minutes song, I forced myself to make them all original, unless I will need Oibon jump.
This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.
I personally copy and paste to avoid having to make hitsounds, as well as the advantage of having the notes already placed. I generally move them around after through to make it different.
for both as long as it is good with the music and a bit moved around i do not have a problem. it just dont have to go too long so it get boring
I probably overuse copy-paste all the time, but I feel that creating new patterns everytime without copypasting would be messy. Obviously I don't copy-paste if it doesn't fit the music.
As a mapper:
Copy/paste to build the same rhythm easier, then rearrange the notes.
As a player:
My opinion, only do copy/paste and flip H/V is too lazy. At least should be arranged in different patterns.
As a modder:
Everybody use copy/paste, don't they?
Copy/paste to build the same rhythm easier, then rearrange the notes.
As a player:
My opinion, only do copy/paste and flip H/V is too lazy. At least should be arranged in different patterns.
As a modder:
Everybody use copy/paste, don't they?
Copy/Paste is my friend <3
When done right, copypaste gives me that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing a familiar pattern. If the actual mapping is done well, it doesn't get boring. Just be careful that the music you're pasting into actually matches with where you took the pattern from.
Copypaste is also the fundamental tool used for creating left-right symmetry patterns, which are always awesome. (Example: "I wonder how, I wonder why" on Lemon Tree)
For verses which follow the same basic structure but with rhythmic differences, copying & pasting, then altering much of everything to match the new rhythm is a good way to ensure consistency of feel while still ending up with something substantially different.
And I got trolled for that in the comments. .__.
Easier difficulties used more but followed my third paragraph here.
Copypaste is also the fundamental tool used for creating left-right symmetry patterns, which are always awesome. (Example: "I wonder how, I wonder why" on Lemon Tree)
For verses which follow the same basic structure but with rhythmic differences, copying & pasting, then altering much of everything to match the new rhythm is a good way to ensure consistency of feel while still ending up with something substantially different.
I actually used just one copypaste--the second chorus--and part of it was flipped.strager wrote:
I just realized Lemon Tree fits well to that. =] (Good job, MM.)
And I got trolled for that in the comments. .__.
Easier difficulties used more but followed my third paragraph here.
I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
As a player, I don't mind, as long as it isn't TOO frequent... unless it's authentic, which isn't TOO bad, but still very repetitive *089m cough*
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
As a player, I don't mind, as long as it isn't TOO frequent... unless it's authentic, which isn't TOO bad, but still very repetitive *089m cough*
Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.YGOkid8 wrote:
I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
Ding ding ding!rust45 wrote:
Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.YGOkid8 wrote:
I'm with Diamond Crash. With a song with eg. 3 choruses, the 1st two are just copy pasted. The 3rd one more original.
But also, if there are two sections of music adjacent to each other, I use copy paste, just to feel... i dunno.
That's kinda like the Hard diff for my Currently in WiP map. Has 4 choruses, 1st 3 are all different, last one is combination of the other 3. That way, it has a slightly familiar feel to it but not too much... hopefully.rust45 wrote:
Actually, I like when it's like Survivor more where the 1st and 2nd chorus and different from each other and the 3rd chorus is a combination of the two. Course this can only work with some songs.
As a player, I found out copy/pasted notes plays ok to me atlease there position and angle has changed. Copy/paste was used by iNiS very often and they are really entertaining you know
As a mapper, I honestly don't know how to make a good use of copy/paste.... I guess I'm just not skilled enough to do that kind of stuff
I do agree that it is a worse thing it can be done if it not used preperly
As a mapper, I honestly don't know how to make a good use of copy/paste.... I guess I'm just not skilled enough to do that kind of stuff
I do agree that it is a worse thing it can be done if it not used preperly
I hardly ever use copy/paste as a mapper in terms of sections of a song repeated. If I'm doing some kind of repeating pattern within the same section though, I'll just it mostly for timing and then re-adjust positioning and spacing. If I'm mapping a song that repeats a section again later, I usually find it in better taste to try and come up with something a bit different there. It just feels lazy doing otherwise to me.
When I run into it while playing, the first thought to come to mind is "Oh gee... this isn't new. I've already done this... blah." I just feel like it makes for a more fun map if it doesn't repeat itself.
When I run into it while playing, the first thought to come to mind is "Oh gee... this isn't new. I've already done this... blah." I just feel like it makes for a more fun map if it doesn't repeat itself.
I feel it works well in some cases but not in others. One case where it does work well is if you have a long song with two separate, repeating parts in it that sound almost exactly alike, though it tends to get kind of repetitive after one copy-paste, and it's far better if it's flipped or altered in some way. Another case where I find it works well is if you're copy-pasting a small pattern so it's right after the original one, which works when the song repeats the same rhythm twice back-to-back. It doesn't work well when it's used too much or where the song sounds different, though.
When I'm playing, what I think depends on which case it is and whether it works well. If it works well, I'm happy and finds it adds coherence to the beatmap, whereas if it doesn't I don't really like it that much.
When I'm playing, what I think depends on which case it is and whether it works well. If it works well, I'm happy and finds it adds coherence to the beatmap, whereas if it doesn't I don't really like it that much.
Actually, I was just working on my first beatmap this morning, and I employed this. It was because the song had a repeating section that was almost identical (save the latter part), so it would make sense to have something a little similar. (Also, I was working on the normal difficulty, so I may not do it for the harder ones). I was originally going to do the full length of the song but decided to do the short version. Otherwise, my lack of creativity would have surely called for excessive copy-paste. It's not bad as long as you don't do it excessively or at least change it up a bit.
I usually copy one slider for the same shape.
Section-copying is boring so I tried my best to prevent it.
Section-copying is boring so I tried my best to prevent it.
You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.
Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
MB makes m980 sadMarioBros777 wrote:
You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.
Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
I copy paste all hit circles because I'm too lazy to hit 2.
CopyPaste + HorizontalFlip = Problem Solved.
He did say "the vast majority". m980 isn't counted in the vast majoritym980 wrote:
MB makes m980 sadMarioBros777 wrote:
You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.
Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
use it to end the song quickly, but i end up use horizontal flip then vertical flip
Perhaps I might copy/paste a small pattern for symmetry, and I used to do the dreaded "copy/paste the chorus" thing, but I don't do that nowadays, and I never recommend that.
You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
Pretty much agreed. The effectiveness of copypasting is largely dependent on the song/mapping style.Agent Spin Here wrote:
You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
Strongly pattern and symmetry based mapping works best with copy paste as it's nice to see the patterns appearing again giving a sense of consistency. Less pattern based mapping doesn't have that benefit so much.
I have nothing against copy paste either way though, and use it quite a lot myself.
I have nothing against copy paste either way though, and use it quite a lot myself.
I made you sad with Believe.m980 wrote:
MB makes m980 sadMarioBros777 wrote:
You really shouldn't have any reason to copy & paste because it just shows how uncreative you are and it just looks ugly and recognizable. This doesn't apply to all maps, but to the vast majority.
Though you should be able, as a mapper, to judge yourself whether copy and pasting is good in a certain situation.
*cough* =x0_o wrote:
Pretty much agreed. The effectiveness of copypasting is largely dependent on the song/mapping style.Agent Spin Here wrote:
You CAN'T judge mapping elements like copypasta on an overall basis. It's completely case specific.
Well, I use to copy/paste a lot on my maps, but everytime for the sake of symmetry, making slight variations on the pattern only if the music changes on that point. And yeah, I usually copy-paste the chorus and change it at the third chorus, but choruses are /always/ the same as the first one so I guess it doesn't matter so much xD
As a player I like copypaste, unless it's the same exact pattern repeating over and over again along the map, that makes it boring :/
Bad C&P hurts a map.
On the other hand, excellent C&P gives a map structure, fun, and puts it way ahead of the pack. Ex. Nijiiro [Hard] (a Pending map :P)
That's all there is to it, really. It also depends on the difficulty, but meh.
On the other hand, excellent C&P gives a map structure, fun, and puts it way ahead of the pack. Ex. Nijiiro [Hard] (a Pending map :P)
That's all there is to it, really. It also depends on the difficulty, but meh.
Speaking from the POV of a taiko mapper, I frequently copy paste as you tend to repeat a pattern 4 times or so. And of course, during kiai sections of a song I may wish to repeat the same notes.
"When it is done well, it is good. When it is done poorly, it is bad."
Ive been experimenting with it lately.
This.awp wrote:
"When it is done well, it is good. When it is done poorly, it is bad."
As a mapper I usually try not to have copy-pasted sections in the map, but if I have, I usually flip them some way
Copy pasta is awesome! I love it! Mostly for the chorus or for symmetry. I never use copy pasta to speed up the mapping process.
Usually when using the same or a similar pattern for a chorus, I change it up by flipping horizontally or vertically, something like that.
Usually when using the same or a similar pattern for a chorus, I change it up by flipping horizontally or vertically, something like that.
Powerdrone311 wrote:
Copy pasta is awesome! I love it!
Yeah...umm...Rank Beatmaps wrote:
0
Because, you know, players don't have opinions on mapping techniques either.MarioBros777 wrote:
Powerdrone311 wrote:
Copy pasta is awesome! I love it!Yeah...umm...Rank Beatmaps wrote:
0
Jeez
Sorry. D:
he does say he uses it for his maps and etc., I don't see what Ranked Beatmaps have got to do with anything if he has Pending maps... and as m980 said, players do have opinions.
I say just take a look at Ready Steady Go! and Jumping Jack Flash. They both copy & paste and they look beautiful and awesome to play.
Like others, aslong as it isn't abused (Shows Laziness & Lack of Originality) and used correctly (like on choruses) it is fine.
Like others, aslong as it isn't abused (Shows Laziness & Lack of Originality) and used correctly (like on choruses) it is fine.
It seems as of late, the community is becoming extremely polarized over this matter, and for whatever reasons, RandomJibberish maps have become the battlefield.
Why can't we just get along? Copypaste maps can be fun. Copypaste maps can be boring. Non-copypaste maps can be fun. Non-copypaste maps can be boring. Why should presence/absence of pasted patterns be grounds for hating a map?
Play SSAY again and tell me it's a bad map. Play Tigerlily again and tell me it's a bad map.
Why can't we just get along? Copypaste maps can be fun. Copypaste maps can be boring. Non-copypaste maps can be fun. Non-copypaste maps can be boring. Why should presence/absence of pasted patterns be grounds for hating a map?
Play SSAY again and tell me it's a bad map. Play Tigerlily again and tell me it's a bad map.
Why can't we just get along?Lol that's what they all say.
But
Copypaste maps can be fun. Copypaste maps can be boring. Non-copypaste maps can be fun. Non-copypaste maps can be boring.Same applies to every varying technique out there.
^ thisZekira wrote:
Why can't we just get along?Lol that's what they all say.
ButCopypaste maps can be fun. Copypaste maps can be boring. Non-copypaste maps can be fun. Non-copypaste maps can be boring.Same applies to every varying technique out there.
i remember having a conversation with m980(?) a while ago. It went something like this:
<YGOkid8> Only well used copy paste stuff work
<m980> That basically applies to everything
<YGOkid8>...oh yeah, you're right.
Copy paste. INSTANT DRAMA
Copy/paste is fine as long as it's used in moderation.
Seeing the same thing two times in a row is fine. It helps a map not be misleading.
Seeing the same thing four times in a row? Gets old, especially if it lasts for 20 seconds.
I find it annoying when mappers copy an entire previous section (usually a minute long) and use the exact thing later. That's fucking lazy.
Copy/paste is fine as long as it's used in moderation.
Seeing the same thing two times in a row is fine. It helps a map not be misleading.
Seeing the same thing four times in a row? Gets old, especially if it lasts for 20 seconds.
I find it annoying when mappers copy an entire previous section (usually a minute long) and use the exact thing later. That's fucking lazy.
Copying some patterns and flipping them v or s is cool when it's not overused.
And when it's overused, it depends a lot on song. If song is repetitive, you need to keep attention to not overuse copies. If it's not repetitive...hard to overuse when it don't fits to song.
Of course copying half of map sucks badly.
It's hard to judge this case at general in my opinion.
And when it's overused, it depends a lot on song. If song is repetitive, you need to keep attention to not overuse copies. If it's not repetitive...hard to overuse when it don't fits to song.
Of course copying half of map sucks badly.It's hard to judge this case at general in my opinion.
seeing the same copied slider 5 times in a map is. >_>
You've clearly never tried to create a large, symmetric pattern that's spaced with no overlap, or join old pieces together with new ones, again, with good spacing and no overlap.theowest wrote:
Copy paste is for lazy people.
Takes much more effort than freestyling it.
"Oh great, I need to remap half of the first chorus, because it doesn't flow right from the bridge into the third chorus!" Mapping a different third chorus WOULD be the lazy way out.
I WAS JUST KIDDING or something. I just don't like copy and paste myself. soo.. yeahmm201 wrote:
You've clearly never tried to create a large, symmetric pattern that's spaced with no overlap, or join old pieces together with new ones, again, with good spacing and no overlap.theowest wrote:
Copy paste is for lazy people.
Takes much more effort than freestyling it.
"Oh great, I need to remap half of the first chorus, because it doesn't flow right from the bridge into the third chorus!" Mapping a different third chorus WOULD be the lazy way out.
Of course I know that mappers aren't lazy. Most mappers do use copy and paste and they're not lazy.
Copy-pasting a simple arc or mirroring something is a perfectly fine time to copy-paste. But when you map half of a song that pretty much repeats again (but with different lyrics and whatnot) and copy paste that half AGAIN just flipped or something, it's just auugh.
In taiko it's perfectly fine to copy-paste if it's a pattern that flows well. And the half song copy paste is also fine, as half the time, nothing fits better than what you just played. But in cases where you know it's boring (long song or something) you can map the choruses differently, or add a few more notes.
People that don't copy-paste in taiko maps can make maps that look more half-assed than one with copy-paste.
In taiko it's perfectly fine to copy-paste if it's a pattern that flows well. And the half song copy paste is also fine, as half the time, nothing fits better than what you just played. But in cases where you know it's boring (long song or something) you can map the choruses differently, or add a few more notes.
People that don't copy-paste in taiko maps can make maps that look more half-assed than one with copy-paste.
^ That.OzzyOzrock wrote:
Copy-pasting a simple arc or mirroring something is a perfectly fine time to copy-paste. But when you map half of a song that pretty much repeats again (but with different lyrics and whatnot) and copy paste that half AGAIN just flipped or something, it's just auugh.
The kind of copy pasting I like is this
\:D/
If it's vgm, you shouldn't map more than one repeat. If it's a pop song that doesn't have different verses, bridges, or anything like that, it shouldn't even be mapped.OzzyOzrock wrote:
Copy-pasting a simple arc or mirroring something is a perfectly fine time to copy-paste. But when you map half of a song that pretty much repeats again (but with different lyrics and whatnot) and copy paste that half AGAIN just flipped or something, it's just auugh.
Pasting a chorus is fine and you know it.
Pasting the chorus is fine, but probably only the chorus. Even musical bridges should be given a little extra something.
Usually I don't map the bridge more than once. Any other occurrences will usually be breaks.
Verses should have an "essence" of earlier verses, but rearranging the objects to match the new lyrics is good.
A mashup chorus is good when the chorus finds itself repeated at the end. ie. v1, c1, v2, c2, b1, c1c2
Verses should have an "essence" of earlier verses, but rearranging the objects to match the new lyrics is good.
A mashup chorus is good when the chorus finds itself repeated at the end. ie. v1, c1, v2, c2, b1, c1c2
Actually...The only real time I used copy and paste is if the lyrics repeat...Like, exactly word for word. If they change, even the slightest, my mapping changes.
^ that. + any other sound change, not just vocal.Lilac wrote:
Actually...The only real time I used copy and paste is if the lyrics repeat...Like, exactly word for word. If they change, even the slightest, my mapping changes.
Only iNiS mappers like copy-paste.
(trololol)
Actually I don't ever really mind when I see copy paste in iNiS style maps. In fact, there's some maps with copy-paste that I think is fine.
It really depends on what's being copy-pasted. If it's ugly and a pain to see again, then WHYY.
(trololol)
Actually I don't ever really mind when I see copy paste in iNiS style maps. In fact, there's some maps with copy-paste that I think is fine.
It really depends on what's being copy-pasted. If it's ugly and a pain to see again, then WHYY.
What is an iNiS mapper? I don't think any staff from iNiS play this game.
don't forget that this has a LOT to do with symmetry too! symmetry is like mapping on one side and then pasting it to the other.OzzyOzrock wrote:
Only iNiS mappers like copy-paste.
(trololol)
Actually I don't ever really mind when I see copy paste in iNiS style maps. In fact, there's some maps with copy-paste that I think is fine.
It really depends on what's being copy-pasted. If it's ugly and a pain to see again, then WHYY.
LOL
I made a pic.. Of what IS a possibility! But very unlikely...
You're assuming that the pasted map is being made in a similar manner to a non-pasted map. If this was the case, the map would be horrible because things wouldn't be spaced, flow would be totally wonky, and stuff would overlap in horrible ways.
Consider this: When building a pattern you know needs to be pasted, you need to consider how it will interact with its surroundings each time it appears. It requires forethought.
Even making a symmetric slider involves tons of ctrl+H and moving control points around by pixels until it lines up.
Lastly, more work doesn't mean better results.
Consider this: When building a pattern you know needs to be pasted, you need to consider how it will interact with its surroundings each time it appears. It requires forethought.
Even making a symmetric slider involves tons of ctrl+H and moving control points around by pixels until it lines up.
Lastly, more work doesn't mean better results.
True. But it is a possibility.mm201 wrote:
You're assuming that the pasted map is being made in a similar manner to a non-pasted map. If this was the case, the map would be horrible because things wouldn't be spaced, flow would be totally wonky, and stuff would overlap in horrible ways.
Consider this: When building a pattern you know needs to be pasted, you need to consider how it will interact with its surroundings each time it appears. It requires forethought.
Even making a symmetric slider involves tons of ctrl+H and moving control points around by pixels until it lines up.
Lastly, more work doesn't mean better results.
Not one structured mappers ever explore. It would play terribly. A beginner might try something like this.
Um, yes, that's what I meant by mirroring in a way. I do it often.theowest wrote:
don't forget that this has a LOT to do with symmetry too! symmetry is like mapping on one side and then pasting it to the other.OzzyOzrock wrote:
Only iNiS mappers like copy-paste.
(trololol)
Actually I don't ever really mind when I see copy paste in iNiS style maps. In fact, there's some maps with copy-paste that I think is fine.
It really depends on what's being copy-pasted. If it's ugly and a pain to see again, then WHYY.
LOL
I made a pic.. Of what IS a possibility! But very unlikely...
I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.
Who says it would play terribly? It could be an awesome symmetrical, copy paste map. Ctrl + H and J so it won't be fully like the first part(s).mm201 wrote:
Not one structured mappers ever explore. It would play terribly. A beginner might try something like this.
I still believe this could still be a nice beatmap.
doesn't have to be fast.. mapping takes time!
It's still lazy! Because it would have taken more time to map than pressing a few keys! I'm not saying it wouldn't look or play awesome.OzzyOzrock wrote:
I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.
Did you completely miss my last post? When done right (ie. NOT the situation you're presenting here), it takes MORE work than a freestyle map.
Plus, why work more for inferior results?
Plus, why work more for inferior results?
If you haven't mapped a map that's at least 30% symmetrical then you have no right to say if it takes more or less time. Symmetry is just like another mapping technique, if you don't take enough time to design it, your map will suck.theowest wrote:
It's still lazy! Because it would have taken more time to map than pressing a few keys! I'm not saying it wouldn't look or play awesome.OzzyOzrock wrote:
I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.
As an experienced symmetric mapper, I can spend 30mins mapping 10 seconds of a song because it's not simply copy+pasting. The patterns need to flow with each other AND you must use the right rhythms, avoiding overlaps it's an extra~ (e.g mapping a song that includes "weird and constantly changing rhythms" using "freestyle" can takes less time than mapping it with symmetry)
Don't compare efficiency to laziness.theowest wrote:
It's still lazy! Because it would have taken more time to map than pressing a few keys! I'm not saying it wouldn't look or play awesome.OzzyOzrock wrote:
I do it because it looks nice (most times). Not to be lazy or whatever you're trying to say.
In very few cases, symmetry is the best way to fit the music, and i have to say 80% or more of the symmetric map could fit most of the songs with the same BPM, that means the mapper is being lazy. I can understand symmetry as a style, but this is a music game not a painting game. If Copy&Paste is using in this way it's probably wrong...
If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.
If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57061NatsumeRin wrote:
but this is a music game not a painting game.
what's your point? that feature doesn't hurt anything in the music part.mm201 wrote:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=57061NatsumeRin wrote:
but this is a music game not a painting game.
If you suddenly have a problem with pretty symmetry maps, kindly gtfo.NatsumeRin wrote:
i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them.
Art is to express some inner things, not only draw a picture and show people how beautiful it is. especially when just draw beautiful things is pretty easy to do in osu, yeah, copy&paste, what we're discussing for.mm201 wrote:
If you suddenly have a problem with pretty symmetry maps, kindly gtfo.NatsumeRin wrote:
i'm one of the "Art More Mappers', a quite strong one among them.
Why should I make less attractive maps to satisfy someone's erroneous notion of the amount of effort involved?
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.
Just different thoughts, no errors or truth here, it's silly to compare between the styles. I gave my opinion from my position, and you... hey. I don't want to force you, don't force me either.mm201 wrote:
Why should I make less attractive maps to satisfy someone's erroneous notion of the amount of effort involved?
I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.mm201 wrote:
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.
It's still probably true, let's get on-topic, lol.NatsumeRin wrote:
If you copy anything more than 20s, it's just lazy and don't need to say more words. Cut down the mp3 is a better choice for the lazy mapper compared to continue to map it.
Just felt the need to do that.NatsumeRin wrote:
I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.mm201 wrote:
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.
Also I am all for symmetry, but copypasting and symmetry are two different matters. Everyone knows that. Symmetry has nothing to do with laziness, but using the same patterns for the same part of the music is laziness.
Please go on.
Not to be harsh or anything but making a 3 control points slider surely takes less time than creating a perfect curve.NatsumeRin wrote:
I wonder how, I wonder why. And as a freestyle mapper it usually takes 3 whole days for me to finish the highest diff, 1 day for other diffs. I'm a fast mapper, oh yeah.mm201 wrote:
It takes me around a month to complete a map. I could make a freestyle map with no ctrl+V in a matter of hours.
Please DON'T compare lazycopy-pasting with "Symmetric mapping" & "Creating appealing patterns"
I think Copypasting is fine just once per map, if the map is around 2-3 minutes, like repeating a chorus flipped horizontally or vertically for example. It was very common on EBA and the like. If the copypasted section is good, I say why not when said section really isn't appealing for mapping.
However copying half the map and flipping it over to get it done faster is just no. Even on easier difficulties.
When it comes to copypasting sliders to flip them around or reverse them, I am 100% fine with this as I myself use it a lot.
However copying half the map and flipping it over to get it done faster is just no. Even on easier difficulties.
When it comes to copypasting sliders to flip them around or reverse them, I am 100% fine with this as I myself use it a lot.
... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.
btw I make sliders using 4 or 5 points lol.
btw I make sliders using 4 or 5 points lol.
Why do 3d games have such good graphics? Why do more expensive video cards come out every year? Why are iPods glossy chrome?
People like pretty things.
...and is making an invisible skin or camouflage hitcircle colours a good place to spend effort?
People like pretty things.
...and is making an invisible skin or camouflage hitcircle colours a good place to spend effort?
You were talking about "time and effort" so don't try to involve other stuff to prove your point.NatsumeRin wrote:
... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.
btw I make sliders using 4 or 5 points lol.
Mappers that actually care about all the aspects of their maps can easily design perfect & appealing sliders that will follow perfectly the music and all the existing rhythms in the songs, take Krisom as example.
It's about making the map as best as you can, that includes design and rhythm. If some mappers can only satisfy the "rhythm" part then they should work harder on the design part to reach the best result.
EDIT: This is getting off-topic *leaves*
In that case, why make good skins for maps? As with backgrounds, storyboards, etc.NatsumeRin wrote:
... what could a "perfect curve" do with the music. not to be harsh but it's not the place to put so much efforts imo. MUSIC is always at the first place.
On a side note, I don't know how anyone relates symmetry and copypastries other than that they often appear together, which if anything 'proves' that there could be more thought involved than people apparently think.
But I'm not asking you to map Around the World with 2 combos and a ctrl+c, why not? Because that would be silly, and nobody would enjoy that. I just believe that following the song is very important, and some form of familiarity within itself is, in my opinion, important in a song. Then again, I haven't had proper sleep for 2 days.
Everything that is tightly related to the music (and its theme) should be treated seriously. Skin is one of those parts for sure, also BG and combo colors. If your sliders or notes placements could fit the song it's perfect, however i find many of them are unrankable now (tobebuta sliders, hold sliders, etc.), troll. And if you just say the shape or structure is great but ignored the music itself, it's just wrong and nothing to discuss about. (That's why i say, if your map could fit most of the songs with same BPM, it sucks.)
Flow vs Structure topic? let's start one if needed. Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.
Flow vs Structure topic? let's start one if needed. Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.
I'm baffled at how you can think colours and background have more to do with the music than shaping and layout.
Edit: And I very much like Krisom's flow. The kris-krossiness plays awesome. Drifting around in circles gets dull after a while. Mixing up different types of flow instead of using the same ones over and over again is important. The more daring and exciting your flow, the better.
Edit: And I very much like Krisom's flow. The kris-krossiness plays awesome. Drifting around in circles gets dull after a while. Mixing up different types of flow instead of using the same ones over and over again is important. The more daring and exciting your flow, the better.
I try to balance those you know :'(NatsumeRin wrote:
Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.
(also I disagree a lot, depending on what map of mine are you playing)
hahahaha dear, you're probably the best mapper when we talk about structure, but i think it's really hard to balance.Krisom wrote:
I try to balance those you know :'(NatsumeRin wrote:
Krisom is really awesome at structure, but not as great with flows, why? Because sometimes he has to keep the shape in some way, that reduces the possibility for sure.
(also I disagree a lot, depending on what map of mine are you playing)
for myself i think flow is more important lol
10 bucks that I can do an amazing flow + structure map. I just need the right song I KNOW ;_;!
also thanks >w<
also thanks >w<
Just throwing my 2 cents off the topic, but I promise that's the last time I do so.
Personally, when it comes to "flow" as we describe it, Krisom IS one of the best mappers around. What do you need to have a good flow? Patterns. I think we can all agree on that. There's also what makes the map interesting, jumps, features and whatnot. But most importantly something that you need in order to have a good flow is a good readability, being able to sightread the map from scratch. And this is where many mappers fail, because for some reason they overlap wayyyyyy too much their patterns, making them unreadable at first sight and not fun at all to play. I've for now noticed only 2 mappers who overlap a lot and keep good readability on their maps, Shinxyn and Crazy Jay.
But I digress. When it comes to flow, I think the main element is as I stated patterns (what else would it be, of course). Intuitive jumps, called for streams, clever spacing modifications (not always jumps though) are pretty much determinating the flow of the map. The AR is also quite important, but we're all different, and can't read at same speeds, so it's no use to go further on that. You also need originality when mapping. It's become a standard that I see star formations on each and every new map. It's seriously getting old.
So to get back on-topic, copy-pasting does not kill flow. Unless it's done wrong. Mirroring a single pattern is not going to make a map dull. Freestyle maps do have flow when done right, as well as more "authentic" maps if I dare say so.
tl;dr, patterns are all that matters, overlapping sucks when done badly, star formations are overused, copypasting is unrelated to flow (when done right).
And I haven't checked the whole thread, but I hope nobody said that the hardest maps are the best because they provide the most challenge and that "challenge and fun are proportional" cause I get that a lot and that just makes me cringe.
Personally, when it comes to "flow" as we describe it, Krisom IS one of the best mappers around. What do you need to have a good flow? Patterns. I think we can all agree on that. There's also what makes the map interesting, jumps, features and whatnot. But most importantly something that you need in order to have a good flow is a good readability, being able to sightread the map from scratch. And this is where many mappers fail, because for some reason they overlap wayyyyyy too much their patterns, making them unreadable at first sight and not fun at all to play. I've for now noticed only 2 mappers who overlap a lot and keep good readability on their maps, Shinxyn and Crazy Jay.
But I digress. When it comes to flow, I think the main element is as I stated patterns (what else would it be, of course). Intuitive jumps, called for streams, clever spacing modifications (not always jumps though) are pretty much determinating the flow of the map. The AR is also quite important, but we're all different, and can't read at same speeds, so it's no use to go further on that. You also need originality when mapping. It's become a standard that I see star formations on each and every new map. It's seriously getting old.
So to get back on-topic, copy-pasting does not kill flow. Unless it's done wrong. Mirroring a single pattern is not going to make a map dull. Freestyle maps do have flow when done right, as well as more "authentic" maps if I dare say so.
tl;dr, patterns are all that matters, overlapping sucks when done badly, star formations are overused, copypasting is unrelated to flow (when done right).
And I haven't checked the whole thread, but I hope nobody said that the hardest maps are the best because they provide the most challenge and that "challenge and fun are proportional" cause I get that a lot and that just makes me cringe.
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33743
I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.
I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.
Just popping in to say that as a mapper i am almost constantly using copy past in some form or another - i use 3-point quickly-constructed near-perfect sliders (Really, if you knew how to do them, you can create near-pixel-perfect symettrical curve sliders in under two or three seconds) and copy-paste them rather often and either rotate, flip, or scale them as needed in patterns i come up with. It's very efficient, very fast, and removes all need for "making sure these two sliders are the same". Same with wave sliders - if i ever see myself using more than one at once, you can bet their ass they will be copypasted unless the music REALLY calls for otherwise.
Copy-pasting entire sections, however, i have different views on. I for one am a very good advocate of copy+pasting patterns and even certain sections on easies and normals, but only if the sections in question are in fact the same, as it leads to the map being slightly more intuitive and easier for a new player to play, even if you take a few liberties with the spacing or difficulty styling. I don't find it as acceptable on hards or insanes, but it can be acceptable if you do it cleverly (reversing patterns, sliders, and other things such as what i did in kanon-kanon or in gowww's final answer).
The main point I can say is that if the song has some repeated sections, it's fine to copy and paste to keep consistency in a map as long as you don't be a lazy bastard and copy-paste absolutely everything. The duration of these sections vary, however, and if the section is decidedly long (i.e. an entyire chorus of more than 20-30s or so) you'd better start being clever with your flipping and switching or it just comes out lazy, no matter how good your "flow" is.
tl;dr copypaste is ok if you do it right (doing it right exerts enough "effort" for it to be acceptable), but if you do it wrong you just show how incompeotent you are.
Copy-pasting entire sections, however, i have different views on. I for one am a very good advocate of copy+pasting patterns and even certain sections on easies and normals, but only if the sections in question are in fact the same, as it leads to the map being slightly more intuitive and easier for a new player to play, even if you take a few liberties with the spacing or difficulty styling. I don't find it as acceptable on hards or insanes, but it can be acceptable if you do it cleverly (reversing patterns, sliders, and other things such as what i did in kanon-kanon or in gowww's final answer).
The main point I can say is that if the song has some repeated sections, it's fine to copy and paste to keep consistency in a map as long as you don't be a lazy bastard and copy-paste absolutely everything. The duration of these sections vary, however, and if the section is decidedly long (i.e. an entyire chorus of more than 20-30s or so) you'd better start being clever with your flipping and switching or it just comes out lazy, no matter how good your "flow" is.
tl;dr copypaste is ok if you do it right (doing it right exerts enough "effort" for it to be acceptable), but if you do it wrong you just show how incompeotent you are.
I made it as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a structure of a map if i never thought about music.mm201 wrote:
http://osu.ppy.sh/s/33743
I made this as an experiment in how fast I could possibly make a map if I never touched Ctrl+V or checked structure.
I'd rather go back to being a "lazy mapper" and spend months on everything, honestly.
I'd rather go back to check the flows and spend months to make my map fits music lol. It took me 20mins to do the structure until the first break, would be faster to do the other parts. hahahahahah
Edit: btw i didn't touch ctrl+V either!