Kencho wrote:

#1
Rebubbled!

Strategas wrote:

tldr; extreme slider leniency abuse - at some places it even has half screen jumps, skipping important sound for the sake of patterns, some places spacing is more than it should be

hi, we talked a bit irc before but here's some things that are worth mentioning

00:08:494 (1,1,1,1) – this was mentioned before and we talked a bit about it and you said you adjusted it, but since I can't really see how much you adjusted this is still a problem. Your reasoning for this was to introduce the player about these patterns happening later in the song but those all have higher sv so they aren't that bad, but since this one is pretty slow it kinda breaks your logic as it's different Nerfed quite a bit

00:34:340 (1) - strange that you have so little spacing as this note is strong and you spaced all the time b4 and later Spaced it out

01:05:725 (1,2,1,2,1,2,3,1,2,3,1) - 01:11:417 (4,1) - why do you use so much spacing in a slow section like this Nerfed

01:48:187 (1,2,3) - 01:55:571 (1,2,3) - I still don't agree with these, because the red ticks are being ignored for the sake of keeping the patterns you want and not following the music, you said something about simplifying rhythm, but there are better ways to handle it without ignoring the song Both for playability and to follow the low djent'y sounding guitar that holds the notes throughout the entirety of the sliders.

01:58:187 (5) - I notice the map has a lot of these things where the spacing goes pretty extreme where the sounds are barely audible, so should be more careful with thatNerfed this and all similar patterns that suffered from the same thing.

02:22:802 - this whole section has these cymbal crashes ignored, I get that you're following piano here, but mapping much more audible sounds would make a more interesting rhythm. For example just making things like 02:22:648 (2) - into two circles would be good enough I'll just remove the cymbal hitsounds since there are actually no cymbals in the song itself :p

02:28:340 - to add up to previous point this is one of the worse examples as it's not even on a slider end but hitsounded through slider ticks, and it just feels awkward when you get such feedback from just following the slider Same as above

02:50:033 (1,2) - very unintuitive rhythm, it's very easy to misread as 1/2 gap instead, would suggest using sliders to make it easier to comprehend like you do later on Added another note to make the double into a triple to make it more intuitive

03:04:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3) - hard to understand what you're doing here, as the way you handle rhythm you're neither following guitar nor the snares with those kick sliders I played around with that section for a while before settling down on what's there right now. The reasoning is behind it is more focused on repetition of the guitar and drums, and I wanted to reflect that through a pattern that was symmetrical and repeating.

03:11:879 (2) - weird rhythm wise to end slider on much stronger beat than it starts Follows the rest of the structure of the section, by putting emphasis on the guitar and making the section way slower than what was before and what's to come.

04:10:814 (1,1,1) - pretty extreme abuse of slider leniency I personally find this one to be fine due to the intensity of the hits.
04:13:912 (1,1,1) - to a point where it's almost unplayable CTRL+G'd the C shaped slider, reverting it to it's original state.

05:56:811 - your green and red line has different hitsound samples set here, and osu prioritizes green lines so in case you wanted D1 you should change it, otherwise can just leave it Fixed

lots of stuff repeats here so not mentioning same things to save my and your time I'll go through the map and change similar things as to what you and Kagetsu has suggested.

map itself is cool, but you should work on the issues me and kagetsu mentioned before going for ranked Thanks and yea I'll see what I'll be able to do

EDIT: Went through the whole map, nerfing a lot of leniency abuse and over-sized jumps.

Hysteria wrote:

01:48:187 (1,2,3) - 01:55:571 (1,2,3) - I still don't agree with these, because the red ticks are being ignored for the sake of keeping the patterns you want and not following the music, you said something about simplifying rhythm, but there are better ways to handle it without ignoring the song Both for playability and to follow the low djent'y sounding guitar that holds the notes throughout the entirety of the sliders.
I don't see how it's different from 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - zzz

Hysteria wrote:

03:04:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3) - hard to understand what you're doing here, as the way you handle rhythm you're neither following guitar nor the snares with those kick sliders I played around with that section for a while before settling down on what's there right now. The reasoning is behind it is more focused on repetition of the guitar and drums, and I wanted to reflect that through a pattern that was symmetrical and repeating.
03:04:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3) - if you wanted repetition here, it repeats every 3/2 beats not every 1/1 like you have now, the way you did at 03:19:571 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - fits your idea

03:11:879 (2) - weird rhythm wise to end slider on much stronger beat than it starts Follows the rest of the structure of the section, by putting emphasis on the guitar and making the section way slower than what was before and what's to come.
03:11:879 (2) - even if you followed some kind of paterning, ignoring music where it stands out is pretty lame, you should focus on mapping things that are most apparent and are giving the most impact, and having impactful notes end on sliderends just wrongly represents what's important and not. If you looked at 03:08:187 (2) - you'll notice it's really different, and even if I don't agree with that rhythm choice either, it's still borderline acceptable

Strategas wrote:

regarding rhythm
still disagreeing with some of your rhythm choices

01:00:956 (3) - overmapped, not sure why just not extend 01:00:187 (2) - instead Fixed

01:14:802 (2,1) - not only unintuivive but again stronger beats ignored for weaker ones, I can see you try following vocals here and it's usually fine, but I'm quite sure the vocalist is slighly off, it would make much more sense to have something like http://i.imgur.com/k9HHmre.png because the vocal rn is on blue tick anyway and you decided to put it on nonexistant red tick beat instead of white tick which is much stronger in this case Dissagree,
I think your suggestion would throw off the player more than what is there right now. Simply because of the added single in place of the 1/2 slider.

01:31:110 (2) - more overmap This one isn't really overmapping though due to there being a piano hit or something similar in the background, so using it as a filler note should be perfectly fine.

Hysteria wrote:

01:48:187 (1,2,3) - 01:55:571 (1,2,3) - I still don't agree with these, because the red ticks are being ignored for the sake of keeping the patterns you want and not following the music, you said something about simplifying rhythm, but there are better ways to handle it without ignoring the song Both for playability and to follow the low djent'y sounding guitar that holds the notes throughout the entirety of the sliders.
I don't see how it's different from 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - zzz The djent'y sound isn't there at all on 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - and that djent'y sound for me is the guitar imitating how the vocals were going, therefore they are mapped practically the same with the 3/4 sliders. I still personally believe that the way I did this is completely fine, since it follows what is in the song and is what I believe to be the best way to visualize that certain section.

02:25:110 (1,2,3) - music prioritizes red ticks but you prioritize white ticks But it doesn't really prioritize the red ticks? As shown/heard by the low piano notes on the white ticks? They are the ones standing out the most out of anything right there and that's the reasoning behind the rythm.

02:30:187 - priotizing weaker over stronger sounds again That's due to how the section is musically, we discussed this in iirc before (offset reset and whatnot) The section is almost identical to the one before, except for the downbeat being on reds instead of whites. And to not make the section way too inconsistent with the last I decided to ignore that and map it the same way as the previous one to keep up with consistency.

02:35:263 (1,2) - I don't get it, you decided to skip 02:35:725 - for the sake of vocals but decided to map 02:36:033 (2) - anyway Fixed

02:36:187 (1,2) - I think I mentioned this before You didn't and I can't really see a problem about it more than the the first slider purposely ignoring the piano note at 02:35:725 -

02:39:571 (4,5,6,1) - suddenly you start doing it correctly Section is a bit faster paced now compared to the other ones, and the lowert notes are not as hearable, therefore it's different. If the other ones you pointed out had the same volume on the lower pitch notes as here, they would be like this too, but that is not the case as of now.

that stuff that I talked above also applies to 00:49:110 (1,2,3) - section And this is the same reasoning as 02:25:110 (1,2,3) -

Hysteria wrote:

03:04:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3) - hard to understand what you're doing here, as the way you handle rhythm you're neither following guitar nor the snares with those kick sliders I played around with that section for a while before settling down on what's there right now. The reasoning is behind it is more focused on repetition of the guitar and drums, and I wanted to reflect that through a pattern that was symmetrical and repeating.
03:04:802 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,3) - if you wanted repetition here, it repeats every 3/2 beats not every 1/1 like you have now, the way you did at 03:19:571 (1,2,3,4,5,1,2,3,4,5) - fits your idea Fair enough, can't really say anything against that argument. Fixed.

03:11:879 (2) - weird rhythm wise to end slider on much stronger beat than it starts Follows the rest of the structure of the section, by putting emphasis on the guitar and making the section way slower than what was before and what's to come.
03:11:879 (2) - even if you followed some kind of paterning, ignoring music where it stands out is pretty lame, you should focus on mapping things that are most apparent and are giving the most impact, and having impactful notes end on sliderends just wrongly represents what's important and not. If you looked at 03:08:187 (2) - you'll notice it's really different, and even if I don't agree with that rhythm choice either, it's still borderline acceptable Fine, I agree, fixed.

03:43:113 (1) - could just reduce it's length to red tick and add note at downbeat to fit better Fixed

03:54:651 (2) - man stop it, you could avoid it by using slider ends on these beats at worst case Same reasoning as 01:31:110 (2) -

slider leniency
00:08:494 (1,1,1) - if you make it slighly smaller it doesn't make it better lol, my point was it just doesn't work with such small sv unless it's some kind of map's concept, in this case it's not as you use normal to high sv for these Re-designed the pattern.

04:10:814 (1,1,1) - 04:13:912 (1,1) - these are still too much aswell, either you could reduce the sliders to red ticks or just fix spacing Fixed by ending them on reds

04:22:835 (1,1) - hard not to get a 100 here because it goes in reverse direction Fixed spacing

spacing
looks better now Thanks

Hysteria wrote:

regarding rhythm

01:14:802 (2,1) - not only unintuivive but again stronger beats ignored for weaker ones, I can see you try following vocals here and it's usually fine, but I'm quite sure the vocalist is slighly off, it would make much more sense to have something like http://i.imgur.com/k9HHmre.png because the vocal rn is on blue tick anyway and you decided to put it on nonexistant red tick beat instead of white tick which is much stronger in this case Dissagree,
I think your suggestion would throw off the player more than what is there right now. Simply because of the added single in place of the 1/2 slider. could always adjust spacing lol, anyway I still think my suggestion works better but you can keep it, as it's not that important

01:31:110 (2) - more overmap This one isn't really overmapping though due to there being a piano hit or something similar in the background, so using it as a filler note should be perfectly fine. I don't see the point of using filler rhythm if you can just be fine without it, for example if you use this: http://i.imgur.com/5YFDSDx.png or http://i.imgur.com/ridGZkq.png or even http://i.imgur.com/5YFDSDx.png my point is not really worth to give something a circle when there's nothing there, I don't really hear it, unless I would boost the sound 400x up to hear some minor sound which isn't worth mapping anyway. The point of filler rhythm itself is to simplify shitty or too complex rhythms, but here it's simple enough to handle without it

01:48:187 (1,2,3) - 01:55:571 (1,2,3) - I still don't agree with these, because the red ticks are being ignored for the sake of keeping the patterns you want and not following the music, you said something about simplifying rhythm, but there are better ways to handle it without ignoring the song Both for playability and to follow the low djent'y sounding guitar that holds the notes throughout the entirety of the sliders.
I don't see how it's different from 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - zzz The djent'y sound isn't there at all on 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - and that djent'y sound for me is the guitar imitating how the vocals were going, therefore they are mapped practically the same with the 3/4 sliders. I still personally believe that the way I did this is completely fine, since it follows what is in the song and is what I believe to be the best way to visualize that certain section. Fine

02:25:110 (1,2,3) - music prioritizes red ticks but you prioritize white ticks But it doesn't really prioritize the red ticks? As shown/heard by the low piano notes on the white ticks? They are the ones standing out the most out of anything right there and that's the reasoning behind the rythm. well the section mostly priotizes what you currently follow yes, but if you compare 02:22:340 (1,2,1,2) - to 02:24:802 (2,1,2,3) - you'll notice the music is doing something different here, and if you would show that with actually emphasizing the red ticks, it will just be much cooler and feel better with the song

02:30:187 - priotizing weaker over stronger sounds again That's due to how the section is musically, we discussed this in iirc before (offset reset and whatnot) The section is almost identical to the one before, except for the downbeat being on reds instead of whites. And to not make the section way too inconsistent with the last I decided to ignore that and map it the same way as the previous one to keep up with consistency. similar thing that I mentioned before with 03:11:879 - where music highlights certain sounds. You don't have to use the same patterns all the time when song is doing something else

02:36:187 (1,2) - I think I mentioned this before You didn't and I can't really see a problem about it more than the the first slider purposely ignoring the piano note at 02:35:725 - uh it was something else, seems like you fixed it

02:39:571 (4,5,6,1) - suddenly you start doing it correctly Section is a bit faster paced now compared to the other ones, and the lowert notes are not as hearable, therefore it's different. If the other ones you pointed out had the same volume on the lower pitch notes as here, they would be like this too, but that is not the case as of now. fair enough

that stuff that I talked above also applies to 00:49:110 (1,2,3) - section And this is the same reasoning as 02:25:110 (1,2,3) -

03:54:651 (2) - man stop it, you could avoid it by using slider ends on these beats at worst case Same reasoning as 01:31:110 (2) - same

Thanks again for the re-check I appreciate it a lot tbf

Strategas wrote:

Hysteria wrote:

regarding rhythm

01:14:802 (2,1) - not only unintuivive but again stronger beats ignored for weaker ones, I can see you try following vocals here and it's usually fine, but I'm quite sure the vocalist is slighly off, it would make much more sense to have something like http://i.imgur.com/k9HHmre.png because the vocal rn is on blue tick anyway and you decided to put it on nonexistant red tick beat instead of white tick which is much stronger in this case Dissagree,
I think your suggestion would throw off the player more than what is there right now. Simply because of the added single in place of the 1/2 slider. could always adjust spacing lol, anyway I still think my suggestion works better but you can keep it, as it's not that important Nerfed it a bit

01:31:110 (2) - more overmap This one isn't really overmapping though due to there being a piano hit or something similar in the background, so using it as a filler note should be perfectly fine. I don't see the point of using filler rhythm if you can just be fine without it, for example if you use this: http://i.imgur.com/5YFDSDx.png or http://i.imgur.com/ridGZkq.png or even http://i.imgur.com/5YFDSDx.png my point is not really worth to give something a circle when there's nothing there, I don't really hear it, unless I would boost the sound 400x up to hear some minor sound which isn't worth mapping anyway. The point of filler rhythm itself is to simplify shitty or too complex rhythms, but here it's simple enough to handle without it Yea you're right, removed the single completely.
01:48:187 (1,2,3) - 01:55:571 (1,2,3) - I still don't agree with these, because the red ticks are being ignored for the sake of keeping the patterns you want and not following the music, you said something about simplifying rhythm, but there are better ways to handle it without ignoring the song Both for playability and to follow the low djent'y sounding guitar that holds the notes throughout the entirety of the sliders.
I don't see how it's different from 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - zzz The djent'y sound isn't there at all on 01:50:033 (1,2,3) - and that djent'y sound for me is the guitar imitating how the vocals were going, therefore they are mapped practically the same with the 3/4 sliders. I still personally believe that the way I did this is completely fine, since it follows what is in the song and is what I believe to be the best way to visualize that certain section. Fine

02:25:110 (1,2,3) - music prioritizes red ticks but you prioritize white ticks But it doesn't really prioritize the red ticks? As shown/heard by the low piano notes on the white ticks? They are the ones standing out the most out of anything right there and that's the reasoning behind the rythm. well the section mostly priotizes what you currently follow yes, but if you compare 02:22:340 (1,2,1,2) - to 02:24:802 (2,1,2,3) - you'll notice the music is doing something different here, and if you would show that with actually emphasizing the red ticks, it will just be much cooler and feel better with the song Changed up 02:22:340 (1,2,1,2) and 02:30:187 (1,2,1,2)

02:30:187 - priotizing weaker over stronger sounds again That's due to how the section is musically, we discussed this in iirc before (offset reset and whatnot) The section is almost identical to the one before, except for the downbeat being on reds instead of whites. And to not make the section way too inconsistent with the last I decided to ignore that and map it the same way as the previous one to keep up with consistency. similar thing that I mentioned before with 03:11:879 - where music highlights certain sounds. You don't have to use the same patterns all the time when song is doing something else ^

02:36:187 (1,2) - I think I mentioned this before You didn't and I can't really see a problem about it more than the the first slider purposely ignoring the piano note at 02:35:725 - uh it was something else, seems like you fixed it Alright

02:39:571 (4,5,6,1) - suddenly you start doing it correctly Section is a bit faster paced now compared to the other ones, and the lowert notes are not as hearable, therefore it's different. If the other ones you pointed out had the same volume on the lower pitch notes as here, they would be like this too, but that is not the case as of now. fair enough

that stuff that I talked above also applies to 00:49:110 (1,2,3) - section And this is the same reasoning as 02:25:110 (1,2,3) - Switched up some patterns.

03:54:651 (2) - man stop it, you could avoid it by using slider ends on these beats at worst case Same reasoning as 01:31:110 (2) - same Fixed

Thanks again for the re-check I appreciate it a lot tbf Times three now

no kd this time lol

Strategas wrote:

alright some last things before I stop torturing you It's fine honestly, I get a lot of feedback from this and it's making the map better in the end, even though a lot of the concepts of the map is a bit "multi-cultural" now compared to before. Since a lot of different opinions has changed the core of the map itself. If that's a bad thing idk, but I'm happy as long as I can push this for ranked.

00:05:725 (1,1,1) - it's pretty hard to tell the rhythm just from visuals, you should either work on making it obvious it's not 1/2 gaps or just simplify the rhythm with something like this http://i.imgur.com/YSBufWa.png I think they are fine as they are, the 1/2 gaps are back and forths while the not 1/2 gaps are a bent curve with all of them being NC'd. I've got some playtests and this place hasn't been an issue so far. The section has been so slow so far that the rythm change isn't too much of a big deal, especially for more experienced players that this map is aimed towards.

05:10:835 (3,1) - slighly too much here Curved 3 so it leads the player a lot more fluently to the next note.

05:27:758 (1,2,3,4) - spacing is weird, 2.3.4 having same strenght but spaced so differently, 2 feels way too close while 4 feels way too far Remapped a bit

05:35:142 (1,2,3,4) - same, can ctrl g 2,3 ctlr g'd

still don't get how come you follow the low piano instead of obvious high pitched piano things like 00:49:263 - 00:49:571 - 00:49:879 - uhh just so weird, but I won't really force you to change it Idk how to explain it without some kind of visual aid or something, but I'll try my best. Those three white ticks all have a 3 note melody that is repeated throughout the section. Like a "Dah, Dah, Duh" sound. The hitsounding and mapping is trying to reflect that.
On other places you've pointed out that I had correctly followed the rythm, those places didnt have that melody, and therefore I mapped it in the 2nd most natural way, which is what you seemingly want me to map all sections with. But this place and around 4-6 other places all share that melody, that for me stands out way more than the rest of the instruments at that point.

Strategas wrote:

delete:
drum-sliderslide15.wav
drum-slidertick15.wav
All removed
since they are unused

1. Why HP 6.9? I think the maps HP seems fairly forgiving but that actual number seems a little meme-ish.
2. *00:46:494 (1,2) - The perfect stack here is pretty deceiving. If you think about it, up until now, the only 1/2 stack was 00:04:494 (2,3) - which is offset. From here on out you start using perfect stacks, but whats the difference between these two points?
3. *01:49:110 (1,2) - Why this perfect stack here? It's the first time you've had a circle stacked under a slider end 1/2 beat apart, and you don't do it much through the map. (This also happens here 04:47:142 (1,2) - 05:05:604 (1,2) - 05:16:681 (1,2) -) It seems like you just run out of room in these spots, but it's not the most intuitive. I'm not really sure what to recommend but I don't think you have a justification since these spots seem so absolutely random. Please change all four cases.
4. 02:14:956 (1) - Why not CTRL+G this to not be a flow-break? It's a continuation of the previous vocal pattern, and by extension, the drum pattern (in a way).
5. *03:54:190 (1,2) - Was there originally a filler rhythm between these? It seem so empty and weirdly mapped as it is now.
6. 04:22:835 (1,1) - Aesthetically, these are grossly close. Try to convey a similar spacing/feel as 04:22:219 (1,1,1) - gave so that you don't break the aesthetic patterning. (I see why this slider is where it is, in the editor. But in game, players won't see how the slider tail forms a line with the 2 and the previous long slider, so try something else that works with your more-recent sliders.)
7. 05:52:065 (2,3,4,5) - Don't you think that 2 and 5 are too close aesthetically, and the flow between 3 and 4 is a bit awkward? Try moving 4,5 down and to the right a bit.

Cryptic wrote:

here at my own and your request somehow

[Yoyo kagirinaku]

1. Why HP 6.9? I think the maps HP seems fairly forgiving but that actual number seems a little meme-ish. It's pretty much an inside joke between me and some friends. Where as one of my earlier maps ended up being AR:9,6 HP:7 Stars: 6 and one of them had the brilliant idea to switch the hp to 6,9 to continue the number trend of 6 and 9's. Since then it has just stuck with me, so no particular reason for it more than that it's what I put all my maps as when I start mapping them. Can change to w/e number if neccessary.
2. *00:46:494 (1,2) - The perfect stack here is pretty deceiving. If you think about it, up until now, the only 1/2 stack was 00:04:494 (2,3) - which is offset. From here on out you start using perfect stacks, but whats the difference between these two points? Changed the one at 00:04:494 (2,3) - to be perfect stack, should fix the issue.
3. *01:49:110 (1,2) - Why this perfect stack here? It's the first time you've had a circle stacked under a slider end 1/2 beat apart, and you don't do it much through the map. (This also happens here 04:47:142 (1,2) - 05:05:604 (1,2) - 05:16:681 (1,2) -) It seems like you just run out of room in these spots, but it's not the most intuitive. I'm not really sure what to recommend but I don't think you have a justification since these spots seem so absolutely random. Please change all four cases. All of them are changed.
4. 02:14:956 (1) - Why not CTRL+G this to not be a flow-break? It's a continuation of the previous vocal pattern, and by extension, the drum pattern (in a way). As you said yourself, it's a continuation of the vocals, and therefore the slider is rotating in the same way as the triangles right before it, clockwise.
5. *03:54:190 (1,2) - Was there originally a filler rhythm between these? It seem so empty and weirdly mapped as it is now. Re-added the filler rythm since that's what I still think is the best option.
6. 04:22:835 (1,1) - Aesthetically, these are grossly close. Try to convey a similar spacing/feel as 04:22:219 (1,1,1) - gave so that you don't break the aesthetic patterning. (I see why this slider is where it is, in the editor. But in game, players won't see how the slider tail forms a line with the 2 and the previous long slider, so try something else that works with your more-recent sliders.) Tried to change it, looks pretty good and goes well with the next section too due to how the jumps are laid out.
7. 05:52:065 (2,3,4,5) - Don't you think that 2 and 5 are too close aesthetically, and the flow between 3 and 4 is a bit awkward? Try moving 4,5 down and to the right a bit.Fixed by spacing out the jumps a bit (holy shit first spacing buff of the entire modding process so far what is this madness.)

I put an asterisk at the beginning of the points that I strongly want you to change or have an in-depth justification for not changing. Changed all of them to something objectively better.