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[Rule change] Completely silenced hitsounds

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Total Posts
23
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Topic Starter
Irreversible

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, but complete silence is always unacceptable. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
I'd like to see a change in the bolded section of this rule, since it doesn't fit very well with the way maps are created nowadays. Personally, I often try emphasizing vocals completely. Since they tend to extend through several beats, they should be hold notes, but the hitsound on a sliderend tends to be overmapped in these cases, since vocals don't end on any sound at all sometimes and just continue into the next note. This makes audible sliderends redundant, and silencing them would be fitting here in my opinion.

Also, there is the case where mappers try emphasizing strong, short synths by using cleverly placed 1/8 sliders instead of circles, in this case unsilenced sliderends sound sloppy and it would be overall better for the map to maintain the hold feel of the slider while not hearing additional sounds that don't match the music at all.

Example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/678428
02:29:048 (1,2,1) - 02:29:978 (1,2,1) - first paragraph
02:48:117 (1,2,3) - second paragraph

EDIT 1: The rule is actually written quite confusing, I'll suggest a rewording as well (suggestions appreciated, since I'm bad in writing these):

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, however, silencing circles and sliderstarts completely is not allowed. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent (even completely), but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
Silencing slider ends using empty hitsounds would certainly be much more convenient than adding two green lines at and after it in the timeline.
Last edited by xxdeathx , edited 1 time in total.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I thought silenced sliderends was already okay
Irreversible
osu! Alumni
4,316 posts
Joined December 2011
Topic Starter
Irreversible

Tess wrote:

I thought silenced sliderends was already okay
It is, but according to the ranking criteria with a maximum of 5% (by using a green line basically). What I want to do is using a silenced hitsound, so you can't even hear 5% of the sounds, as it is still quite hearable in some cases.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
If anything I'd say this rule is too vague for the kinds of maps there are out there nowadays

And yeah I meant empty hitsounds.
I mean, you could always, you know, make it 5%, and then add the empty hitsound. If the player doesn't like it, they can disable custom hitsounds and play with the regular 5%. Problem solved. No need to be complicated about it.

EDIT: try (Even completely, through silent hitnormals)
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
To be honest. I would like to see this rule simplified. Right now its a cluster of pointless explanation that really shouldn't be necessary. The idea is to get the rule out, not explain why, or explain places to look for.

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, however, silencing circles and sliderstarts completely is not allowed. Any part of the spinner, the sliding sound or the tick sounds of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense.
It may make sense to keep the line "These provide feedback for the player, and having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. " in, but I decided to leave it out. Add it back in if an explanation feels needed. I personally don't really see a need for it.

I feel like we could reduce the content of this rule to at least this amount. Getting back on topic, this does include Irreversible's rule change, as I support it. If we're reducing it to the point where we don't want it to make a sound, we might as well be able to go the whole way and completely silence them, since they don't provide any help while playing the song.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Make it "Hitsounds from circles and sliderstarts must be audible" then
Kodora
Kodora
Irre is love

all of my yes
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
end of a slider can be silent (even completely)
I'd add spinners in on that since in some cases the song just fades out and having a sound on the end of the infamous last spinner is actually quite annoying
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg
oh wow, I remember there was the similar discussion long ago
p/2579534
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
I'm kind of neutral here even if I don't like silenced hitsounds at all. What's the point on putting an object which provides zero feedback to the player? Also I've seen some players complaining about silent hitsounds so uhm, yeah, heh.

But as long as you aren't silencing both sliderslide and the slider end at the same time...
Karukami
67 posts
Joined October 2011
Karukami
what about players who use a lot of offset? hitsounds don't move to said timing and it sounds misplaced, how can we fix that for better gameplay?
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
That's why you end sliders on something in the music to avoid all this crap.
BeatofIke
4,174 posts
Joined September 2011
BeatofIke

DakeDekaane wrote:

I'm kind of neutral here even if I don't like silenced hitsounds at all. What's the point on putting an object which provides zero feedback to the player? Also I've seen some players complaining about silent hitsounds so uhm, yeah, heh.

But as long as you aren't silencing both sliderslide and the slider end at the same time...

those wrote:

That's why you end sliders on something in the music to avoid all this crap.
This.

At the same time, I don't like to limit freedom to mappers that agrees to this rule change. Therefore, I'm more towards the neutral side as well. I do wish that silencing both slider slides and slider ticks together was allowed as you can still add hitsounds at slider start and the sliderend. Oh well :P
KSHR
osu! Alumni
1,668 posts
Joined July 2010
KSHR
This may be just me, but I think "but only do it if it makes sense" sounds a bit too abstract. Unless the rule clarifies this, mappers will abuse silent hitsounds imo. How about rewarding it with "no instrumental" or something?



BeatofIke wrote:

I do wish that silencing both slider slides and slider ticks together was allowed
I do wish this as well.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

BeatofIke wrote:

those wrote:

That's why you end sliders on something in the music to avoid all this crap.
This.
Lavender
Beatmap Nominator
891 posts
Joined January 2014
Lavender
I think completely silenced hitsounds should be allowed to be used if there is no sound at slidertail.

Also,

BeatofIke wrote:

I do wish that silencing both slider slides and slider ticks together was allowed
I do wish this as well.
Kibbleru
osu! Alumni
5,846 posts
Joined August 2013
Kibbleru
im for this o/

imo the current restrictions limit too much potential creativity.
these "silenced" slider ends (that alot of people hate) is just another way to express a song.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Bumping this, please try to conclude this discussion within one week. I will then proceed to either bubble or flame this depending on the outcome.
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

D33d wrote:

The slider/spinner issue can be solved pretty easily by ending one in a logical part of the music. Consider that hitsounds are effective when they're additive, so an additional jingle or tap could sound right with the music. A soft-hitnormal adds almost nothing to the tactility of an object, especially at 5%. Spinners and sliders have defined ends, so the audible feedback kind of makes sense.
This^

Also do not cancer feedback on sliders, wait for an actual hold notes implementation
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu

Irreversible wrote:

end of a slider can be silent (even completely), but only do it if it makes sense
My opinion is that if there is a slider ending on certain point, it should not be allowed to completely mute it. "Doing it only if it makes sense" is kind of self-countering argument - If it does make sense to have 0% volume, then it does not make sense to map that point of song, I think.

Also, I never found out how does slider ending on imaginary place ever improve the gameplay. We are not making a new song, we are just mapping current one, imaginary stuff mostly doesn't make sense because it does not reflect or emphasize anything in the song.

DakeDekaane wrote:

I'm kind of neutral here even if I don't like silenced hitsounds at all. What's the point on putting an object which provides zero feedback to the player? Also I've seen some players complaining about silent hitsounds so uhm, yeah, heh.

But as long as you aren't silencing both sliderslide and the slider end at the same time...
This says it pretty well, agreed with the last point as well.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I don't mind updating the part in bold that Irre highlighted. It's contradictory to our current ruleset. His second suggestion in green is redundant, however. Silent and completely silent are the same thing.

So the text should read as follows:

Ranking Criteria wrote:

Hitsounds from notes and sliders must be audible. These provide feedback for the player, having them silent in a rhythm game doesn't make much sense. If you don't like the default sounds, then find replacements rather than silencing notes. You can use hitsounds from the Custom Hitsound Library or easily find others online. Lowering the volume of a few notes to provide a dampened effect is usually fine, however, silencing circles and the beginning of sliders completely is not allowed. The end of a spinner (or even the entire spinner) the sliding sound of a slider, and the end of a slider can be silent, but only do it if it makes sense. Finally, you cannot silence both slider ticks and slider slides together.
As an aside, I would like to see an amendment allowing slidertick and sliderslide silence simultaneously when the tick rate changes in the song (a common cases would be going from 2 -> 1 in a 1/3 section) if you have chosen to silence the sliderslide already. This way you can still have the audible tick rate sound off correctly without having incorrect rhythms introduced. As we are editing this portion of the rules, I dunno if it's appropriate to throw it into this thread as well or start a new one but here it is.
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.
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