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BN Cleaning: Ending the Standstill.

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Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
So last time I posted in the Development forum, I said that while I have apologized for the actions I've done earlier, that won't stop me from actively pushing for change, nor will it stop me from calling out staff when I feel that things are not being done in the most beneficial way

I discussed this mildly on Loctav's ask.fm, but I'm impatient so I decided to go ahead and bring it up here

http://ask.fm/Loctav_/answer/132632357542

So tl;dr, the BN team is right now at a standstill. Nobody is getting removed, but because of that, nobody is getting added. However, there have still been many high leveled contributors who would be worthy of BN status, but now are entering the 2nd month of being barred from entering due to the lack of any sort of team management. I understand that the BN Ranking is still a work in progress, but it's been a work in progress for quite a while now. It's been at LEAST 4-5 months now that it's been a thing, and it's honestly tiring to see that proper team management is compromised due to procrastination (I have not seen any public announcements about the development of the new BN Ranking, so I am left to assume that it is a dead project, similar to modding v2).

Now, the main point of this topic isn't to bitch about my issues with the staff, but rather to offer solutions and open a public discussion to either have this go into effect, or receive legitimate reasoning as to why it is ineffective.

So the question is "How do we effectively regluate who stays and who doesn't."

I've always been an advocate for consistent activity in the BN. While I do agree that there should be quality over quantity, I also feel that there needs to be a sufficient amount of quantity to make their addition to the team worthwhile. It's kind of like working in a factory. If someone can stack boxes really well, but is slow at it, you're going to want to find someone else that still stacks boxes decently, but is more efficient at it.

So here is a list of everyone that, based on kudosu history (and at times, last login date) has struggled to make many contirbutions to the Beatmap Nomination process as a BN. Note that this list is an unbiased as possible, and includes many mutual friends.

This will be organized into 3 lists

Very few mods monthyl
-Nya- (2 mods this month, 2 mods last month, etc)
captin1 (1 mod this month, previous mod was 2 months ago)
Flask (1 mod this month, 2 mods last month)
Kenterz (1 mod this month, last mod 3 months ago)
OniJAM (1 mod this month, 1 mod last month)
Sekai-Nyan (1 mod this month, last mod 2 months ago)
Momochikun (1 mod this month, last mod technically 2 months ago (end of July))
Nwolf (1 mod this month, last mod 1 month ago)
qoot8123 (1 mod this month, last mod 2 months ago)
_S u w a k o_ (last mod 1 month ago)
DE-CADE (last mod 1 month ago)
Evening (last mod 1 month ago)
Little (1 mod this month, last mod 1 month ago)
Harbyter (Last mod 1 month ago)

Inactive (No mods in the last month)
Inazuma (Last mod 2 months ago)
Hollow Wings (Last mod 2 months ago, previous mod 4 months ago)
Lally (Last login 3 months ago)
Mei (Last mod 2 months ago)
Loneight (Last mod 5 months ago)
Sakura (Last mod 6 months ago)
Static Noise Bird (Last mod 4 months ago)
Stefan (Last mod 2 months ago, previous mod 6 months ago)
Xgor (Last mod 7 months ago)
Zero__wind (last mod 2 months ago)
Love (Last mod 3 months ago)
mingmichael (Last mod 4 months ago)
Spectator (Last mod 2 months ago)
arcwinolovirus (Last mod 3 months ago)
REDYUMiKA (Last mod 4 months ago)


Quit (As expressed on userpage)
Alarido
lkx_shore
Oracle (Not sure if he quit but uhh his last login was 4 months ago so)
Inyuschan
tutuhaha
Ichigaki
Yauxo (Not sure if quit but last mod was 1 month ago)

In total, there are 36 names. The first section is relatively questionable, but for sure there are 22 people that have not made a contribution in MONTHS, at least in the modding side of the game. Note that I did not check bubbles, but still, I doubt that anybody on the list have been exclusively bubbling enough to be considered active.

As I said before THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON EITHER THE STAFF NOR THE MEMBERS OF THE BEATMAP NOMINATORS GROUP this is literally just a call for some sort of action to increase the productivity of the BN as well as allow fair treatment for newer members to be added, instead of being blocked due to the amount of old members on the team. Especially considering that these people amount for 33% of the team (36 people against a team of 106 (technically 105 because I'm not entirely sure what Charles is).

I know it is possible to make comebacks, and many BNs have done so, which is why I made the separation between people who have simply just been really slow and may need a kick in the ass to get back on track, and people who have obviously decided to no longer give contributions. I am not even using very strict criteria. In my personal belief system, if the kudosu history even shows "one month ago", there's a problem, but I am being VERY relaxed here by only listing people who have done LITERALLY NOTHING in the past month (month as in between 30 days from today and today, not the month of september :P) or more.

I feel the most effective way to clean out the BN team is to

1) Have a discussion with inactive members in the first group. See if they've decided to just stop or if they are willed to continue modding. In the BN ranking topic, it is said that about 3-5 mods (I'm going off the top of my head so. . .) is neccessary per month to not lose (now hypothetical) BN score. In this case, many people would have sunk down heavily, and possibly gone below acceptable levels.
2) Remove people from columns 2 and 3. I have seen staff members defend people to the death because there's the belief that "as long as you do a little here and there, you're still contributing", but these people have done NOTHING for a LONG time. If they want to come back and do more, that's great, but they can go through the process again to be re-added.
3) Make a note to make activity in the BN more strict. It's tough to monitor BN progress manually, I know, but there should be a time once a month or so (until BN Ranking comes out, so. . . pretty much forever) where kudosu history is looked at, as well as bubble history and such, and people who are making very little contributions should be talked to, and warned that they will be removed if they do not step up their work. It is not demeaning them or being an asshole to them, it's applying standards to a job and ensuring that people accomplish those basic standards. Because being a BN is a job. As a BN you are literally the first round of progress between the progression of content in the game. Even though the BN isn't staff, the BN isn't a perk, but a job to contribute to the game to ensure that proper maps are pushed through and approved.

I'm interested to hear opinions about this, and hopefully some progress can be made from this.

And as a reminder THIS IS NOT A PERSONAL ATTACK ON ANYONE. I recently had to go through some shit because I called out a BN for misconduct, and I swear I had 5 people view it as a personal attack. I'm not posting this topic to be like "haha man, I hope xxx and yyy get kicked off >:))))", but rather to say "these are the facts. Let's progress with them."

lets hope i don't regret this

Also, I'd post this in the BN forum, but uhhhhhhh whoops.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We are already doing our own evaluation.
peppy
19,323 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Then why are people that haven't done anything for four months still on the team?
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
Cool to hear

I'm excited to hear how that turns out.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
The evaluation got halted and revised. Considering your planned and proclaimed changes, we needed to screw our current approach and had to find a new one, while the old one was close to release.
peppy
19,323 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
That was one week ago. What about the rest? Also, why not act on inactive users now?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
We were busy with world cups. I rather want a fair measurement than a rushed one. The inactive people are also not hurting anyone, so if It takes three days more, it doesn't make everything explode. The purge was scheduled for Wesnesday this week already anyways.
peppy
19,323 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Cool. Make a public thread announcing your schedule/changes going forward so people are aware of it and we don't waste effort doing the same thing in multiple places.
DeletedUser_3044645
DeletedUser_3044645
Please, do make those announcements.

That way I can expect you to ask Koerapenguin (who barely speaks any damn English, misunderstands your question, of course, and tells you the wrong answer)

if I bubbled his map with his permission and then silence me 170 or whatever hours without even confirming with me if I actually had his permission.

And then make an apology thread and remove me.

And also disqualify one of my maps personally for extremely subjective NC issues while I'm still silenced.

Also you can't get mad at me for calling you an ahole

because KP showed me his chat log with you, which I no longer have.

I've seen what you called me.

PS. I hope you're not planning to silence me again for this post just like you did when I bitched about QATs not doing their job properly.
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani

Shioi wrote:

Please, do make those announcements.

That way I can expect you to ask Koerapenguin (who barely speaks any damn English, misunderstands your question, of course, and tells you the wrong answer)

if I bubbled his map with his permission and then silence me 170 or whatever hours without even confirming with me if I actually had his permission.

And then make an apology thread and remove me.

And also disqualify one of my maps personally for extremely subjective NC issues while I'm still silenced.

Also you can't get mad at me for calling you an ahole

because KP showed me his chat log with you, which I no longer have.

I've seen what you called me.

PS. I hope you're not planning to silence me again for this post just like you did when I bitched about QATs not doing their job properly.
Pleaae dont hijack my thread for your own personal agenda.

If you have issues, feel free to discuss them, but there is a place to do these things, and this thread is not that place.
Ayachi-
2,261 posts
Joined November 2013
Ayachi-
1) Have a discussion with inactive members in the first group. See if they've decided to just stop or if they are willed to continue modding. In the BN ranking topic, it is said that about 3-5 mods (I'm going off the top of my head so. . .) is neccessary per month to not lose (now hypothetical) BN score. In this case, many people would have sunk down heavily, and possibly gone below acceptable levels.
I think this is important since some BNs may have temporary real life issues or plans which can lead them to be less active and they may be coming back, confirmation should definitely be done before the purge upon this group.
Professor Gila
644 posts
Joined December 2014
Professor Gila
oh my, great issue!

hey, allow me to get the update of this thread :3/

nitip sendal bang :3/
Rivals_7
Beatmap Nominator
2,979 posts
Joined July 2014
Rivals_7
Why don't make a thing like "BN quit request?"
For those who don't want to be a BN anymore but still want to continue modding like normal players.

(just my opinion to reduce the BN team)

Sorry for bad english ;w;
Raging Bull
2,809 posts
Joined June 2010
Raging Bull
Because some people probably see BN as some status and will highly unlikely fill it out
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
Does this mean that apps will be reopened as soon as the purge is done?

I'm just curious because, in some way, it would make sense to open them right away; but on the other hand, we're nearing half september already and opening in the middle would be a bit of too much work already

Keep up the good work guys c:
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,652 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata
Uhh, One thing though...

Inactive BN's aren't going to be contributing to current bubbles/ranks anyways. If there are 70 active BN's right now, and 36 of them are removed, the amount of BN activity is still going to be just like it was before the purge. I think cleaning out inactive BN's is a good idea, but just clearing them isn't going to reduce BN activity, which I think is another reason why BN applications have been barred: There is no need for more BN's at the moment.
Sonnyc
7,774 posts
Joined June 2008
Sonnyc

Raging Bull wrote:

Because some people probably see BN as some status and will highly unlikely fill it out
No matter how the managers said BNs are just a normal user with an extra ability, it's hard to deny that ability as a status.

Personally admitting the BN as a "status" and allowing users to resign that status seems more natural. It can also assure BN users that they are actually contributing the community by doing their role, not just playing a game as a purely normal user.

As long as the view towards BN remains the same, changes are not likely to happen. But considering #nominators are live now, which kinda indicates osu! accepted BN as a something, I'd like to ask why not for allowing BNs to quit themselves.

hijacks are fun
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I have to agree with Monstrata
Even though the inactives should be removed, the overall activity stays the same
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav

Raiden wrote:

Does this mean that apps will be reopened as soon as the purge is done?

I'm just curious because, in some way, it would make sense to open them right away; but on the other hand, we're nearing half september already and opening in the middle would be a bit of too much work already

Keep up the good work guys c:
Briefly after that yeah. Depending on the amount of removed BNs, we can only allow a specific amount of new applicants back in.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Any information on when the 'cleaning' happens?
Howl
1,121 posts
Joined June 2013
Howl

Baraatje123 wrote:

Any information on when the 'cleaning' happens?

Loctav wrote:

We were busy with world cups. I rather want a fair measurement than a rushed one. The inactive people are also not hurting anyone, so if It takes three days more, it doesn't make everything explode. The purge was scheduled for Wesnesday this week already anyways.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Oh wow
Ipas
806 posts
Joined September 2013
Ipas
Quite agree with monstrata, but please reopen the application, even if just once in the near future . You don't trying to make many people feel disappointed, right? I've seen many of decent people to join in (I don't have to mention them), maybe to replace the whole of inactive BNs, so that the applicants for the next application will know result of their efforts lately
Please forgive me if there are words that are less pleasing, Thanks in advance!
PatZar
3,079 posts
Joined March 2013
PatZar
niceshotCDFA
Exa
446 posts
Joined January 2015
Exa
It was about time.

Not only a good portion of the BNG members are inactive (props to Reditum for monitoring them), but also many of the current ones have a "Busy, don't bother me" tag on their userpage, making them unapproachable and therefore; uncooperative.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Most BN (if not all) hate it when they are spammed by requests
They just put it there to lower the amount of requests they get
I for example have it too, while I still accept most mod reqs
This is mostly so I don't have to say no everytime
Okay, sometimes people are just busy due to school
So am I, I'm in my final year now, preparing for the exams, so I'm much less active then 1 month ago, yet you may still ask me for mods (please don't spam me after you read this and are looking for a BN-mod)
Also, most BN who have that on their profile, still take requests from their queue or via other means (questionnaires, google Docs, linking to Krfawy's profile (Sieg did that) etc.)

I agree, it's hard to find BN to mod your map, but if you request a M4M, the most part of the BN agrees with it (unless they are truly busy)
I however just contact them, as they know they can always contact me for mods
Oh, Know, you may contact any BN at any time, as they are not only there to mod maps, they help people mapping and when mappers have questions. Ofcourse, don't spam them with requests

Wait, why am I referring to the BN as they O.o
I would change it to we, but I'm on mobile so that's a bit hard ;w;
BeatofIke
Beatmap Nominator
4,176 posts
Joined September 2011
BeatofIke

Baraatje123 wrote:

Any information on when the 'cleaning' happens?

Loctav wrote:

The purge was scheduled for Wednesday this week already anyways.
So that's September 9th correct? Well........

BeatofIke's Userpage wrote:

Joined/Removed Chat OP (Chat Moderators): August 21, 2014 - September 9th, 2014.
Joined/Removed Old -> New BAT Merge (Beatmap Appreciation Team): August 21, 2014 - September 9th, 2014.
This was the day I was removed from staff. Talk about cursed fate :o
It already been a year? Wow, time sure does flies.
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael
Ok, I am still relatively new to modding with just 51 kudosu, but I'm still going to try and express my opinion.

I believe that monstrata is right; removing inactive members of the BN has to happen, but it is not a good way of decreasing BN activity. An option could be that BN applications open every 2 or even 3 months instead of every month, decreasing the number of BN's being added. Also, I believe that mod quality is more of a guideline to good BN's, rather than having a lot of kudosu. Still, the 180 as a minimum (and it should become a hard minimum, not something you should have but is not required) is a good indicator.

Then, I think there should be a system where BN's can put their status. If they are inactive, have some kind of google doc or website where everyone can see that and follow that. If their status is inactive for x number of months, remove them. That way you get a visual of who is currently active and who isn't. This means that BN's can have real life issues for a few months, but if they stay in that situation, they will have to reapply for BN

Lastly, I believe that the minimum amount of mods done every month should be higher (please don't kill me BN's). 3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something. If you raise that amount to something higher, hell, let's say 8, and you make that amount clear to all players looking to join the BN, there will be less applicants for sure, while giving a boost to the modding done (because, to be honest, when I mod maps, all the other maps are from the same 20 people).

Those are just my few cents in this discussion, maybe it helps somehow.

Good luck with this, I might sign up for BN too in a few months, after some more experience.
~Scout
Last edited by Zaphkael , edited 1 time in total.
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
180 is not a minimum anymore. The minimum is 1200 BN score in the trial phase of the application (which can be reached without 180 kudosu, depends on the amount of mods you did in the last 3 months).

Also: hell NO at the increase of required mods/month by BNs. "3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something." That is a complete lie and I can confirm it even if I'm not a BN. A good mod (just 1) can take even DAYS to complete because you want to revise it in detail/add more comments/explain something more thouroughly. And even MORE, if you are planning to set an icon to said map.
Crimmi
1,947 posts
Joined June 2009
Crimmi

Raiden wrote:

180 is not a minimum anymore. The minimum is 1200 BN score in the trial phase of the application (which can be reached without 180 kudosu, depends on the amount of mods you did in the last 3 months).

Also: hell NO at the increase of required mods/month by BNs. "3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something." That is a complete lie and I can confirm it even if I'm not a BN. A good mod (just 1) can take even DAYS to complete because you want to revise it in detail/add more comments/explain something more thouroughly. And even MORE, if you are planning to set an icon to said map.
Well there are some modders who could do that if they are very skilled with modding and been in the game for a couple years, but increasing the required mod count for the BN's is a tad too brutal. I am just going to sit in the shadows and see what unfolds here.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

inspectorscout wrote:

Ok, I am still relatively new to modding with just 51 kudosu, but I'm still going to try and express my opinion.

I believe that monstrata is right; removing inactive members of the BN has to happen, but it is not a good way of decreasing BN activity. An option could be that BN applications open every 2 or even 3 months instead of every month, decreasing the number of BN's being added. Also, I believe that mod quality is more of a guideline to good BN's, rather than having a lot of kudosu. Still, the 180 as a minimum (and it should become a hard minimum, not something you should have but is not required) is a good indicator.
Removing inactive BNs won't decrease the activity at all, their addition to the current activity is minimal. On the last 3 or so applications, besides the kudosu count and last 3 months mods, you were also asked to supply 3 mods, which were reviewed to assess their quality. I think that 180 as a hard minimum will just force people to spam bad mods, rather than focus on doing quality mods.

inspectorscout wrote:

Then, I think there should be a system where BN's can put their status. If they are inactive, have some kind of google doc or website where everyone can see that and follow that. If their status is inactive for x number of months, remove them. That way you get a visual of who is currently active and who isn't. This means that BN's can have real life issues for a few months, but if they stay in that situation, they will have to reapply for BN
I think developing a system for that is unnecessary. All it's required is being open enough on both sides (BN and management) to discuss this in private and sort it out.

inspectorscout wrote:

Lastly, I believe that the minimum amount of mods done every month should be higher (please don't kill me BN's). 3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something. If you raise that amount to something higher, hell, let's say 8, and you make that amount clear to all players looking to join the BN, there will be less applicants for sure, while giving a boost to the modding done (because, to be honest, when I mod maps, all the other maps are from the same 20 people).
That's reall subjective. On CtB we don't have a WYSIWYG editor, it doesn't even show what notes become hyperdashes, so it all comes to testing, testing and testing. Testing the current map, testing the changes you might propose. Depending on the state of the map, I have taken up to 1 hour modding a single diff. Extrapolate to a single mapset, extrapolate to the 8 mods you propose. And that's not considering recheck and stuff. And yeah, you could say "but focus on nearly ready mapsets". We don't have that much in CtB, just so you make an idea, 4 maps were ranked in August/July, 7 on June, 6 in May, 2 in April and I think I could go on...
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,424 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I somehow would perfer to not add any new BN members unless a mode requires more of them. Then again I guess modders won't get chosen by the mode they regulary mod, idunno
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Stefan wrote:

I somehow would perfer to not add any new BN members unless a mode requires more of them. Then again I guess modders won't get chosen by the mode they regulary mod, idunno
In one way, I agree with this, as it doesn't increase activity
On the other hand, there are quite some modders who deserve to be in it, due to their modding capabilities

Anyways, let's wait until tomorrow for the purge
Good for Xgor he can finally be removed
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael

ZiRoX wrote:

I think developing a system for that is unnecessary. All it's required is being open enough on both sides (BN and management) to discuss this in private and sort it out.
Isn't the lack of communication one of the things that makes this system not work properly?

ZiRoX wrote:

That's reall subjective. On CtB we don't have a WYSIWYG editor, it doesn't even show what notes become hyperdashes, so it all comes to testing, testing and testing. Testing the current map, testing the changes you might propose. Depending on the state of the map, I have taken up to 1 hour modding a single diff. Extrapolate to a single mapset, extrapolate to the 8 mods you propose. And that's not considering recheck and stuff. And yeah, you could say "but focus on nearly ready mapsets". We don't have that much in CtB, just so you make an idea, 4 maps were ranked in August/July, 7 on June, 6 in May, 2 in April and I think I could go on...
I was talking mainly about std, but since I do not know a lot about other gamemodes, I can't say something about those. Maybe split up BN's into 4 tiers, 1 for each gamemode. Those that are hybrids just belong to several parts of the BN. If clear rules are there for each gamemode seperately (for some gamemodes they have to be more strict since those are more active), and clear rules for hybrids, too, It should be easier to follow everything up. Of course, this is the opinion of a newbie, but I would like to see some changes anyway, at least to change the mentality of modders and BN's alike. They should be more of a team again, because making them operate as just a single person guarantees problems.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Backin the days (I feel old) the BN (BAT) were split up, to Taiko BAT, CtB BAT, Osu!Mania BAT and Beatmap Approval Team (this is standard)
With the revision of the system, this got changed, as any BN is free to icon whatever they way
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,850 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
What Stefan said. But even though modders won't be chosen by mode aspects, it should be at least kept in mind dispite what might happen in future. Though, I'm sure it has/will been/be considered.
----------------------------------------------------------
inspectorscout and ZiRoX might be interested about this.
Mafumafu
Nomination Assessment Team
3,395 posts
Joined August 2013
Mafumafu
Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.
Look at the mode-specific forums
In all 3, there is a sticked thread with the BN/QAT/Alumni of certain mode
Ono made the taiko one, I did the CtB one/Mania One
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

inspectorscout wrote:

Lastly, I believe that the minimum amount of mods done every month should be higher (please don't kill me BN's). 3-5 mods every month; that is something you can do in 3 hours or something. If you raise that amount to something higher, hell, let's say 8, and you make that amount clear to all players looking to join the BN, there will be less applicants for sure, while giving a boost to the modding done (because, to be honest, when I mod maps, all the other maps are from the same 20 people).
Then you're most likely not doing a good job.

If you're modding a 4 diff TV size map, that's 1:30 minutes x 4. So at a bare minimum, we can expect to spend 6 minutes on playtesting all the four difficulties, and 6 minutes on watching through every difficulty in the editor once. This assumes that you're able to check for flow issues, rhythm issues, aesthetics, patterns, hitsounding, consistency and a whole lot of other things all at once, in one go, without ever having to pause the editor. Add to that a few minutes to check metadata, folder and difficulty settings, the best-case scenario for a mod of a tv size 4 diff mapset is about 15 minutes. So yes you can finish 3 mods in less than an hour.

But realistically, that doesn't happen ever. It's much more common that modding one difficulty takes anything between 30-60 minutes to over 3 hours and beyond, depending on how much work a difficulty needs. You could mod "perfect mapsets", but even then, you'd still have to actually check that it is perfect. And don't forget the 7 diff 4:50 maps.

I'm sure most of the BNs spend at least about an hour on every difficulty, not every mapset.
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.
There are lists of mode-capable BNs in the respective subforums. In the old BAT system, the Wiki showed which mode each BAT was in charge of (similar to what the QAT Wiki page looks today). I proposed to return to that template, but showing b]what modes each BN felt proficient at[/b]. Got a NO shoved in my face.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

ZiRoX wrote:

Regraz wrote:

Yeah, I hope at least there could be a reference list to show the main field(s) of a certain BN. (Though there are no strict restrictions of "mode-specific" BNs)
It would be really more convenience to both the mappers and BNs.
There are lists of mode-capable BNs in the respective subforums. In the old BAT system, the Wiki showed which mode each BAT was in charge of (similar to what the QAT Wiki page looks today). I proposed to return to that template, but showing b]what modes each BN felt proficient at[/b]. Got a NO shoved in my face.
So did I
t/279397
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael

OnosakiHito wrote:

inspectorscout and ZiRoX might be interested about this.
It really looks a lot like this. It failed due to a lack of people that wanted to mod something.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
Just my opinion.

Increasing the amount of BN could be nice, but, you, guys forgot that there is limit of qualified maps per day. I can see like 3 pages of bubbled maps in Pending map section, and that gives me much headache, really. A lot of maps are waiting for a very long time and that's not good to see that a map is still waiting for a BN check for 3 months for example.
Increasing the BN activity will flood everything with this current system, at least for std mode. The only thing I or we have to agree with is : We need more BNs for taiko, ctb and osu!mania mode.

Moreover, i'd like to say something you, everyone should keep in mind. Learn what is fairness and stop circlejerking. Increasing the amount of BNs is nice, but increasing the amount of BNs that circlejerk isnt. (true example : the story of the CTB map qualified by someone not experienced at all in CTB mode), and that exemple really shows that we need more BNs for this mode.

Nominating whatever we want is encouraged, but there are limits, and a lot of BNs are abusing with that. If they were not abusing of that, things could be better today concerning this system, and the whole atmosphere between BNs.
Zaphkael
289 posts
Joined October 2014
Zaphkael
So Cherry Blossom, what you are trying to say is that recruiting should be done mode-specific?
That would actually be a lot better.

edit: maybe there should be a way to encourage modders/BN's to learn another gamemode too. Some kind of reward system for helping out the gamemodes that actually need bn's.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Many BN are actually capable of multiple modes
Yuii, Std/CtB
Ozzy, Std/Tk
Xinely, Std/CtB
Julie, Tk/OM
Shione, Tk/OM
Me, Std/Tk
Just to name a few
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Learn what is fairness and stop circlejerking.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Learn what is fairness

Cherry Blossom wrote:

and stop circlejerking.

Cherry Blossom wrote:

stop circlejerking.
looking at you o!m :>

But yeah I pretty much agree with everything Cherry Blossom has stated.
Ayu
1,126 posts
Joined December 2011
Ayu
Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
To apply you need 8 per month
And 180 kudosu (you can have higher activity --Lower kudosu and vice versa though)
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Ayu wrote:

Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.
You probably needed 1-2 more mods per month, given your kudosu count. And, if I did get the formula right (similar to that of the old BNG), constant activity was benefited since each month had it's own logarithm (e.g. it's better to have 6-6-6 mods than 8-5-5). Less speculation, it would be good if the formula was made public.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-

ZiRoX wrote:

Ayu wrote:

Can I still add my 2 cents to the circlejerk or something because I just really wanted to say that I got denied for BN for not being active enough like half a year ago, although I did at least 4 mods a month or something.
You probably needed 1-2 more mods per month, given your kudosu count. And, if I did get the formula right (similar to that of the old BNG), constant activity was benefited since each month had it's own logarithm (e.g. it's better to have 6-6-6 mods than 8-5-5). Less speculation, it would be good if the formula was made public.
Or just everyone's score
That't be helpful as well (then people know if they reach 1200 or nit)
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team
5,005 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
dudes

  1. go to the old bn ranking t h i s o n e
  2. make a local copy of it
  3. go to "all sheets" in the bottom left and select the hidden candidate sheet
  4. enter your values
  5. see for yourself if you can enter or not
  6. yay!
the formula is public but apparently not public enough, what Baraatje said previously is wonky and won't apply in all cases and you can actually make sure yourself this way

do i need to make a picture tutorial or do i need to calm down
Shohei Ohtani
Topic Starter
Shohei Ohtani
I cant get mad because like all of the discussion is relevant but like meh.

While i agree with the points made, especially about the BN having to accomodate to limitations of the system, it still is mega frustrating that I cant rejoin the team even though I was literally one of the highest ranked on the team.

Like its totes my fault for quitting I guess but meh.

Id personally like to see more progress being made to make the limitations more leniant. I know that the 6 map limit was made to reduce server stress, but I think we should instead look at ways to better improve the servers so that more players can contribute. Its a little unfortunate that many people are stuck in the "oops showed up too late" kinda thing when they sometimes exceed the quality of some members of the team and would have strong and rmeaningful contributions.

I will literally fucking do what I can to pay for a new server for osu! just to increase the limit so qualified and dedicated members can have the ability to contribute in the ranking lf maps, especially since the goal is to achieve a community based modding system.

Ive been having a really shitty few days and im trying not to sound like a whiny bitch, but uhhhh, yeah.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,053 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

Reditum wrote:

I cant get mad because like all of the discussion is relevant but like meh.

While i agree with the points made, especially about the BN having to accomodate to limitations of the system, it still is mega frustrating that I cant rejoin the team even though I was literally one of the highest ranked on the team.

Like its totes my fault for quitting I guess but meh.

Id personally like to see more progress being made to make the limitations more leniant. I know that the 6 map limit was made to reduce server stress, but I think we should instead look at ways to better improve the servers so that more players can contribute. Its a little unfortunate that many people are stuck in the "oops showed up too late" kinda thing when they sometimes exceed the quality of some members of the team and would have strong and rmeaningful contributions.

I will literally fucking do what I can to pay for a new server for osu! just to increase the limit so qualified and dedicated members can have the ability to contribute in the ranking lf maps, especially since the goal is to achieve a community based modding system.

Ive been having a really shitty few days and im trying not to sound like a whiny bitch, but uhhhh, yeah.
The cause of the limit isn't server load. Don't bring the wrath of the superiors plz
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
Well
Perhaps the cap can go to 8-9 as each QAT works individually
A map of mine got DQ'd in 3 hours because it works this way now
Not after 5-6 days like before
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
The thing is that some mapsets require quite more in-depth looks to find DQ'able issues.

Personally I'm fine with the 6 cap /even though I've been stolen the slots several times lmao/

Anyway let's see how this goes...
Seijiro
osu! Alumni
3,438 posts
Joined April 2013
Seijiro
Since there is a daily limit for the maps the BNs can rank why not starting to mod already bubbled maps?
What I mean is, that since you can't do much to qualify new maps and since there are already a bunch of bubbled maps, why not having those bubbled mapsets checked by more BNs?
Who said that once a BN makes a check he/she needs to place a sort of icon or whatever. If more of them check the mapset before actually getting it qualified there are less chances to get it DQ'd. If I remember correctly, last time I looked at the formula for the BN score there was also a value for the contribution on the mapset (modding) which means that you can keep your score even by helping out with one mapset (I'm referring to the last version of it, the one posted by p3n)

At this point, I'd rather increase the number of bubbles needed to qualify a mapset since there are more BNs. I know this is a bit extreme since the system works pretty fine already, but it's just to throw some sort of idea in here, maybe it generates a better one in the future

And yeah, the system needs a better activity log about each BN, just to keep the system working at a constant pace (tbh I dunno about what it can be made on the site, but I guess there is some way to do it)

I'll keep watching and see what the future will bring us~
Monstrata
Elite Mapper: Aspirant
4,652 posts
Joined May 2013
Monstrata

MrSergio wrote:

Since there is a daily limit for the maps the BNs can rank why not starting to mod already bubbled maps?
What I mean is, that since you can't do much to qualify new maps and since there are already a bunch of bubbled maps, why not having those bubbled mapsets checked by more BNs?
Who said that once a BN makes a check he/she needs to place a sort of icon or whatever. If more of them check the mapset before actually getting it qualified there are less chances to get it DQ'd. If I remember correctly, last time I looked at the formula for the BN score there was also a value for the contribution on the mapset (modding) which means that you can keep your score even by helping out with one mapset (I'm referring to the last version of it, the one posted by p3n)
I really want to see more of this, but the current system doesn't put enough of an incentive towards bubble-popping or checking bubbled maps for this to be effective. Additionally, there seems to be some social stigma towards bubble-popping between BN's.

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).

Not all BN's have the same opinion on mapping quality too. Even if the objectively unrankable issue found in the beatmap is fixed, it doesn't mean a BN is willing to rebubble. Perhaps the quality is not up to their personal standards. However, this can also send the wrong message to the first BN... something like "Your standards are too low," or "You could have put in more time to modding and improving the quality of this map before bubbling it." I can see this causing BN's to second-guess themselves and potentially not even being willing to rebubble a map. (Is that wrong? Not entirely... but it's certainly not going to be fun for the owner of the mapset)

One possible solution could be to allow BN's the option to either bubble a map upon bubble-popping, or repair the bubble on a map. They sound the same, so let me explain the two scenarios:

If BN 1 bubbles, and BN 2 bubble pops, but BN 2 doesn't think the map is ready, BN 2 can repair the bubble set by BN 1 after objectively unrankable issues are fixed. BN 2 will receive contribution points but not any penalties should the map get dq'ed. BN 1 will have their bubble restored, but the mapper will need to find BN 3 to rank the map. (Interesting to note, in the current system, BN 1 will receive the contribution points, but not any penalties since his/her bubble was overwritten by BN 2's. This really should be the other way around imo).

If BN 1 bubbles, and BN 2 bubbles pops (for some unrankable issue), but believes that the map is of high quality, they can (re)bubble the map instead. Because of this, BN 1 can now rank the map because BN 2 has also decided he/she wants to push the mapset forward rather than simply contribute through modding/finding errors. This is basically the system we have right now except most BN's will just post their mod without a bubble-pop icon (even if unrankable stuff is found, cuz no one enforces this rule).
Ayu
1,126 posts
Joined December 2011
Ayu
it'd be helpful if the system was based on quality not quantity haha quality post right here

basically what I'm saying is is that I agree with the reason that I didn't get in, because I wasn't active enough. But on the other hand, I was more active than like, half of the BN's? Not to mention that my modding quality was also higher than most. It's quite frustrating to see that the requirements are kinda backfiring.
XinCrin
2,845 posts
Joined January 2012
XinCrin
yeah What happened with quality mod like old times?. When there was professional modders

Ayu wrote:

it'd be helpful if the system was based on quality not quantity
*Just mod like a robot, you don't have to know how to map or be good at modding. Sorry I have to write it u.u*
Crimmi
1,947 posts
Joined June 2009
Crimmi

monstrata wrote:

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).
Didn't Loctav gave a warning of punishment to that kind of behavior?
whymeman
osu! Alumni
3,432 posts
Joined November 2008
whymeman

monstrata wrote:

Currently, if you bubble-pop a map, you are obligated to rebubble. I say "obligation" because you don't have to rebubble, but it's considered rude because by bubble-popping you are kind of sending an (unintentional) message to the other BN(s) involved in bubbling. For example, something like "You aren't doing your job well enough because I found these errors etc..." It's fine if a QAT points these problems out because QAT's and BN's are two different groups, and QAT's are "higher up". It's more understandable if it's a QAT. Buf if it's a BN, it can send the wrong message, and it can also lead to "more-experienced" BN's bullying newer BN's who they view as incompetent (and believe me, I've seen this kind of stuff happen).
As far as I remember, there weren't any issues with rebubbles and reranking a map if the "errors" are considered as very minimal where it doesn't change the map drastically. Its a minor setback, but nothing to shed tears on. But now it seems quite shunned upon and leaves some mappers in the dark for a long while before they get another BN to recheck it properly. Just breaking a bubble with a "you suck at modding" attitude is just asking for another flamewar where it shouldn't exist. Especially when the one that breaks the bubble only pops it but never bothers to recheck and replace it.

Anyways, there's a few things i'll say as well. I may be an old retired BAT/GMT, but don't treat Alumni as an outcast of the past as if we don't know what we're talking about. Staff shouldn't be completely separated based on titles and name colors.

First, when it comes to activity, yes its one of the major factors of being a BN or QAT. But what about the quality of the mods and the effort put into them? Normally, before a bubble or rank is made, those making the choice to have the map "ready to play" would check from the first line of meta in the .osu file down to the last inherited timing mark in the timeline. Even to check for missing or unnecessary files to keep the folders clear of clutter. But lately, i've noted that the critical mod posts were lacking a lot of things which eventually led to the rush of high DQ rates that is actually worse than the "obsolete past". And within those critical mod posts, there's very little communication between the team and more of a solo mission on knowing when a map is ready to rank. Back then, BATs and MATs were more directly in contact with the mappers which helped ease the tension in terms of knowing who to talk to with what needs to be addressed and how fast things can be taken care of. Even if that BAT or MAT couldn't mod Taiko properly for example, they can always get a fellow member that has experience with that gamemode to do co-op modding (and yes, that idea existed before too). I like the idea of getting those that are experienced in other game modes, but it shouldn't have to be only that as CTB, Taiko, and Mania is not for everyone. Some people can still fall far from being "experienced" enough to mod it and even farther if forced to learn in such a short time. This could leave those that want to work hard but only limited to standard out of luck.

Another thing, which i'm going to suggest again is some retraining for the BNs and QATs. I'm not calling them stupid or anything for missing stuff, but when people see a person with a title of a BN or QAT, they're going to expect them to know a lot so it never hurts to be knowledgeable with modding and the logic of beatmapping. Maybe a mentoring system can work as it was done before, but to have 2 ~ 5 out of the +40 actually able to mod for example isn't good for the results of such productivity in the end of each month. I really don't want to hear another "been there, done that" reply when it can be improved or reapplied. If the BN (or worse, QAT) refuses to keep the work at least decently consistent or better, then it would be more of a risk of quality of the beatmaps to the point even the most simple mistakes could make people lose more faith in the system like: DQ'd for a difficulty missing a video, DQ'd for 2 unsnapped notes, DQ'd for wrong offset, DQ'd for wrong Source/Artist, DQ'd cause this section needs color hax to see properly, and such. Also, some of the DQ's appeared to be more of an "attack" on mapper's styles than actual issues without much technical understanding or trying to take the time to sit with the mapper one on one to figure things out.

Last, in terms of nominations, those that don't make it could at least be given a reason why they didn't make it besides activity reasons. Ignoring the attempt to at least send a "did not pass because-" message leaves the potential BN who's trying hard to be one left in confusion and hurt because they don't know what to work on. I know there must be at least 100 PMs or applications and more, but if you still want to have BNs and future QATs willing to help, at least helping them address their weaknesses is the first step to make things easier for everyone.

Not sure what else to say since i'm not feeling too great to think of much.......
Karen
2,873 posts
Joined August 2013
Karen

Cherry Blossom wrote:

the story of the CTB map qualified by someone not experienced at all in CTB mode), and that exemple really shows that we need more BNs for this mode.
yes you should know more about the ctb community, see if there is one bn of CtB mode is willing to rank that map, and imagine if no one rank your map, what will you do.
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync
I thought this stuff was supposed to be automatic by now :-P
Mercurial
Mercurial

Sync wrote:

I thought this stuff was supposed to be automatic by now :-P
You shouldn't be surprised that it isn't.
Bara-
11,980 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
As long as the BN ranking doesn't exist, this can't really go automatically
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

monstrata wrote:

text
Honestly if BNs make a fuss about their bubbles being popped and start to call other BNs names then I don't know what to say. Get your shit straight, you might've done a mistake, it happens. There is absolutely no objective reason to put the blame on a BN who popped your bubble, it's part of their job too. This whole thing should not be.

whymeman wrote:

more text
I heard from certain sources that BNs are now meticulously selected by the higher ups by judging the quality of their mods and stuff. Also heard they've rejected quite a few applications due to them not meeting the required standards (and accepted none so far, over the span of a few months). I assume the same was done even earlier with QATs, so this in theory shouldn't be an issue anymore as they wouldn't accept mediocre modders who put quantity over quality in the BN/QAT ranks.

Yes I realize that is vague as f*ck but I have reasons to believe this is not far from what's really happening.
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