I was watching a CSGO professional stream featuring two female teams. It got me thinking "should sex be a factor in E-Sport teams?"

As far as sports go, males and females are physically different. It's reasonable why there are male leagues and female leagues for sports. However in e-sports, those physical differences don't hold the same weight. In a video game, players are players, and the physical differences between males and females don't account into a play style, technique, etc.

So, should e-sport leagues be separated by sex (having a male and female league for the same game)? Why or why not?

Damn son, quite a controversial topic you brought up.

Well, I find that all genders (even transgenders) should be allowed to play E-Sports, I mean why does this kind of sport should just appeal to men? Look at basketball, there a women basketball league and another for men. So why not the same I guess for E-Sports (not including separation of teams seeing it's these sports not physical to the body, but mentally and with your hands...

Sulker wrote:

Damn son, quite a controversial topic you brought up.

Well, I find that all genders (even transgenders) should be allowed to play E-Sports, I mean why does this kind of sport should just appeal to men? Look at basketball, there a women basketball league and another for men. So why not the same I guess for E-Sports (not including separation of teams seeing it's these sports not physical to the body, but mentally and with your hands...

I didn't write that women should not play e-sports. I wrote asking if men and women should have separate leagues, and why.

Females have slower reaction times than males. But the difference is small and there's not enough females players to warrant separating the genders.

Right now "Girl Teams" are sort of a gimmick for women to be like "Haha?? You thought a girl couldnt game?? Youre wrong!!!" And for guys to be like "wow look at those hot babes playing that video game wow i wish i had a girlfriend like that"

I dont think at this point that it should be restricted. the bigger issue at this point isnt "should we separately classify men and women", but rather, "is more interest from female gamers to go pro going to happen."

Its similar to male/female osu! players. Ive never really seen the discussion of "men are better than women", but there is more interest from male gamers to spend millions of hours playing.

The mapping community is somewhat a little more diverse, which is nice. The only issue there is "who the fuck is actually a girl and who only identifies as one"

You already said it, OP.

sex shouldn't be an issue in E-Sports, because the greatest incentive for keeping them men and women separated is gone. As opposed to traditional sport, E-sport mostly lacks the physical component, which enables women to compete with men just fine. In traditional sport however, having men compete against women is rather pointless, because men will always have the superior physique.

As I currently see it, there is no other reason to keep men and women separated.

B1rd wrote:

Females have slower reaction times than males. But the difference is small and there's not enough females players to warrant separating the genders.

imo the difference between males and females ability to play games at a pro level is the same in theory, it's just that females dont have the dedication to video games males have, it's a cultural thing. afaik http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Scarlett is the one and only exception, I don't know of a single other female on earth that plays at the very highest competitive level of any game.

Let alone 5 of them.

There lies the problem with trying to form an actual competitive TEAM of them. A radical exception like this can exist for starcraft because it's a 1v1 game at the pro level.

they tried to make an all female 'pro' league team, but the problem is most of them were around the same rank i was before i quit, so they were hopeless from the beginning. here's a relevant video of a bunch of random pros from different teams playing as friends, sniping them in queue and trolling around having fun but still winning easily.


I imagine the CSGO team will go exactly the same way.

Reditum wrote:

Right now "Girl Teams" are sort of a gimmick for women to be like "Haha?? You thought a girl couldnt game?? Youre wrong!!!" And for guys to be like "wow look at those hot babes playing that video game wow i wish i had a girlfriend like that"

pretty much, that's why the only actual professional female gamer doesn't draw attention to that fact at all, because it's not important. What matters to her is playing the game, and playing it well, just like all the other pros. What matters to all these other "gurl gamurs" is attention from boys, and a twitch chat to flirt with, getting donations, titty cam etc. They couldn't fathom themselves sitting down in front of a computer with noone to praise them and just practice a game for the amount of time actual pros do to reach that level, and they don't deserve the attention they get at all. Boils my blood how many viewers they get, it's superficial and sad.

TO be honest, if all these people were shunned and ignored enough, it might actually lead to more professional femaler gamers, because as it is, when you're a girl you pretty much get handed this optional no-effort shortcut that still leads to money and praise, and instead of practicing 12 hours a day for months all you have to do is pretty up and have the camera angled half at your face and half at your cleavage. It's no wonder its so commonplace. If it were the other way around males would be doing the same thing.

Reditum wrote:

Right now "Girl Teams" are sort of a gimmick for women to be like "Haha?? You thought a girl couldnt game?? Youre wrong!!!" And for guys to be like "wow look at those hot babes playing that video game wow i wish i had a girlfriend like that"

I dont think at this point that it should be restricted. the bigger issue at this point isnt "should we separately classify men and women", but rather, "is more interest from female gamers to go pro going to happen."

Its similar to male/female osu! players. Ive never really seen the discussion of "men are better than women", but there is more interest from male gamers to spend millions of hours playing.

The mapping community is somewhat a little more diverse, which is nice. The only issue there is "who the fuck is actually a girl and who only identifies as one"

Valid points. Women do play video games but generally don't go professional.

Railey2 wrote:

You already said it, OP.

sex shouldn't be an issue in E-Sports, because the greatest incentive for keeping them men and women separated is gone. As opposed to traditional sport, E-sport mostly lacks the physical component, which enables women to compete with men just fine. In traditional sport however, having men compete against women is rather pointless, because men will always have the superior physique.

As I currently see it, there is no other reason to keep men and women separated.

I did some more reading, and to other forums, there's a mental difference between men and women, one being that women are better with verbal reasoning and men are better with spatial reasoning. The differences shouldn't be big enough to separate the genders, unless there's a study that says otherwise.

Isn't donating to girl streamers who purposely wear something to show and exert the top of their breasts or shoulders (Or just showing more skin than necessary.) basically just tipping them like those non-nude "live cams" where you can talk to a female in a chat box and they have a webcam? Doesn't that mean they are purposely being like 1/8th of a prostitute where they use men as a way to earn small cash, but if they attract enough they start raking in a lot of cash? Like damn, if I saw my sister doing that (She plays games too) I would have to give her a lesson that her actions may lead to real prostitution in the future if she get's too into having men give her money for just slightly showing off something subtly.

Sulker wrote:

Damn son, quite a controversial topic you brought up.

Well, I find that all genders (even transgenders) should be allowed to play E-Sports, I mean why does this kind of sport should just appeal to men? Look at basketball, there a women basketball league and another for men. So why not the same I guess for E-Sports (not including separation of teams seeing it's these sports not physical to the body, but mentally and with your hands...

Women are good with their hands. For many things. Such as making a nice burrito (Why does everyone always use sandwich? A burrito is so much better.). I'll be honest and say I'm horrible at making burritos, if I can find a girl that can make a good burrito I'm set for life.

____

Repr1se wrote:

I was watching a CSGO professional stream featuring two female teams. It got me thinking "should sex be a factor in E-Sport teams?"

As far as sports go, males and females are physically different. It's reasonable why there are male leagues and female leagues for sports. However in e-sports, those physical differences don't hold the same weight. In a video game, players are players, and the physical differences between males and females don't account into a play style, technique, etc.

So, should e-sport leagues be separated by sex (having a male and female league for the same game)? Why or why not?

SKIP TO SECOND TO LAST PARAGRAPH IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO READ RAMBLING

Now, onto a more serious conversation. Using my own sources and what I know from being in contact with both genders many times.

From what I know, male and females are different in many aspects. It's a given that they are physically different naturally from birth to adulthood, you can't go against mother nature. I mean, a female can get all buffed out and be stronger than the average man. Note that I said the average man. If both a woman and man were to get buffed out to the fullest that their different types of anatomical bodies allow, the man would naturally be at last three to four times stronger. You can't fight against how the reality of the difference of physicality between the two genders.

Let's move on to the intellectual and mental part of this now, as I don't want anyone that counts as a fake hardcore feminist to go mad on me. Do those type of people even know what a feminist is supposed to really be like? People who take it too seriously and go on and on about why females are better than men in all aspects and then try to trickle in some pseudo theories here and there just to make themselves sound smarter and make it seem they are right because of it. A real feminist understands the differences between men and women, but they also know all the aspects of what makes women better than men naturally. Such as being able to have a child, being naturally better than men at childcare, they tend to be better at home organization mentally and are good for giving emotional support to people.

It seems I have sidetracked. Please note that I do not exactly take a side of either if men or women are better. But I do actually know the true real differences between them physically and mentally and I can say that they are perfectly balanced (As in if there is a unbalance, another perk about the gender will balance out what has been unbalanced. If that makes sense.) and both genders are both better off working together peacefully.

Now, onto the topic about E-Sports. Some people say that men will be better than women at competitive gaming, and women are better than men. The funny thing is that they don't exactly know how the achievement of getting "better at games" work. Since gaming generally and usually does not require that your physical abilities need to be polished to win a video game, that means it depends on your intellect. People always argue that men and women are different mentally.

Look, I can agree that they are actually difference mentally. Women actually tend to be more emotional and understanding than men. Men actually tend to be more focused mainly when focusing only on one thing on their path, women generally actually do better once they have to focus on handling multiple things at a time (Which can be seen in wives and also mothers, especially single mothers rather than single dads.). Men are naturally more aggressive and actually have an easier time once they forget their surroundings and what is happening, once in this state of mind they have narrowed down on whatever they are focusing on. Women, in that kind of situation tend to know their surroundings better and what is currently happening, although I can't say for a fact that they are better at focusing on taking something down than men. There is a reason why many men "love the thrill of the hunt", although they do get sidetracked sometimes.

____

With all of the above information, let's move on to the capabilities of men and women in competitive gaming. Honestly as far as I know, they can play against each other if they wanted and it shouldn't be much of a big deal. Such as a female team vs a male team. What I want to actually see, are mixed teams for once. Such as male and females mixed on the same team. If putting the mental capabilities of both genders to work together, I know for a fact that it has a chance to work better than a full one gender team. As long as the man doesn't lose the emotion of what he is playing for, and as long as the woman doesn't lose focus on what exactly to do in a situation, when putting together the minds of both can seemingly make a good team that will be different mentally and physically than all the on gendered teams we currently have.

The thing about "skills" in gaming is that it works like any other game, no matter if you are a male or female. You start off at point zero and work your way up, sometimes some male players rise up faster than female players, sometimes a female player rises up faster than a male player. If there were actually the same amount of male to female players in the gaming community, it would be a lot easier to count the stats of the differences between males and females. Males generally take up at least about 7/8 as a fraction of the gaming community. That means usually 1/8 out of every eight gamers will be female.

Most people tell me, "WAIT! But 1/8 is still a lot! Kind of..?". Let me show you the math.

1 times 100 = 100

8 times 100 = 800

1 times 1,000 = 1,000

8 times 1,000 = 8,000

The higher and higher we go, the males will progressively out weight how many females there are the higher it grows. One female gamer out of every eight people in a crowd, depending on the amount of people in the crowd, that 7 amount of men will always be larger every time you add another 8 people to the factor. It grows higher the more people there are.

1 times 10,000 = 10,000

8 times 10,000 = 80,000

The difference is so huge that you can't believe that the 1/8 minor difference was so small when it first started. Look at this:

1 times 1,000,000,000 = 1,000,000,000

8 times 1,000,000,000 = 8,000,000,000

The difference is so large that if you were to put all 9,000,000,000 in a crowd, there would be so much men more than women.

If there were a 1/1 difference, meaning every other gamer was a female and male. It would be a lot easier to get statistics between them.

____

Okay, I can write out a whole ten page essay about this, using both sides of the paper. I'll just end it and make it short right now. I don't think people want me to go deeper and deeper into this and make some really long and boring explanation that is hard for the average person to understand intellectually.

Look, all I have to say is that in video gaming, both men and women learn the game similarly. Each game has mechanics and rules that apply to them, men and women both learn them. They both learn the same thing, they both play with the same knowledge at hand. The only difference is who practices more. I know that there is probably a girl out there that has practices osu! way more than me and is better than me. Don't you see? Practice makes perfect, no matter the gender once it comes to competitive video gaming.

All in all, E-Sports will still work the same way if we pit female vs male teams from time to time, or instead rather have mixed gender teams for once. It will still be E-Sports competitive gaming, both teams will still use the same knowledge at hand because they both are given the same knowledge of the game that goes around. It's not like women read a tutorial and watch guides and see them differently than men, because that would be idiotic.

I'm done here. Sorry for the off-topic rambling.

The only thing I wonder about the topic here is: why


How's the gender related to gaming skills

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

B1rd wrote:

Females have slower reaction times than males. But the difference is small and there's not enough females players to warrant separating the genders.

imo the difference between males and females ability to play games at a pro level is the same in theory, it's just that females dont have the dedication to video games males have, it's a cultural thing. afaik http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Scarlett is the one and only exception, I don't know of a single other female on earth that plays at the very highest competitive level of any game.

Let alone 5 of them.

There lies the problem with trying to form an actual competitive TEAM of them. A radical exception like this can exist for starcraft because it's a 1v1 game at the pro level.

they tried to make an all female 'pro' league team, but the problem is most of them were around the same rank i was before i quit, so they were hopeless from the beginning. here's a relevant video of a bunch of random pros from different teams playing as friends, sniping them in queue and trolling around having fun but still winning easily.

box

I imagine the CSGO team will go exactly the same way.

Reditum wrote:

Right now "Girl Teams" are sort of a gimmick for women to be like "Haha?? You thought a girl couldnt game?? Youre wrong!!!" And for guys to be like "wow look at those hot babes playing that video game wow i wish i had a girlfriend like that"

pretty much, that's why the only actual professional female gamer doesn't draw attention to that fact at all, because it's not important. What matters to her is playing the game, and playing it well, just like all the other pros. What matters to all these other "gurl gamurs" is attention from boys, and a twitch chat to flirt with, getting donations, titty cam etc. They couldn't fathom themselves sitting down in front of a computer with noone to praise them and just practice a game for the amount of time actual pros do to reach that level, and they don't deserve the attention they get at all. Boils my blood how many viewers they get, it's superficial and sad.

TO be honest, if all these people were shunned and ignored enough, it might actually lead to more professional femaler gamers, because as it is, when you're a girl you pretty much get handed this optional no-effort shortcut that still leads to money and praise, and instead of practicing 12 hours a day for months all you have to do is pretty up and have the camera angled half at your face and half at your cleavage. It's no wonder its so commonplace. If it were the other way around males would be doing the same thing.

nah, the difference is there http://www.colorado.edu/eeb/courses/123 ... 005/21.htm

But you're pretty much right, if women did try as much as men, there wouldn't be that much disparity. I wouldn't be too critical of the 'gurl gamers' though, women are just much more inclined to do things for social reasons, rather than competitive reasons (and they're not gonna be shunned, because there is a demand for such a thing, men like to dote on girls). The reason why e-sports are dominated by men is because they are much more competitive, in the 21st century they use games as a way of 'proving themselves'. That's why the ratio of men/women will be even more skewed in e-sports than it is in casual gaming. It's also the reason why in this game there are a lot more female mappers compared to female players.

Damn Kittenz why are you so good?
Consider me a fan.

The disparity of men vs. women in high level competition even exists in professional chess.

I don't think it is just reaction time at play here.

Stefan wrote:

The only thing I wonder about the topic here is: why


How's the gender related to gaming skills

The topic isn't even about gaming skills. I've acknowledged that men and women can be equally good if they put in enough time. The question is: in e-sports, should there be separate leagues for men and women.

Repr1se wrote:

Stefan wrote:

The only thing I wonder about the topic here is: why


How's the gender related to gaming skills

The topic isn't even about gaming skills. I've acknowledged that men and women can be equally good if they put in enough time. The question is: in e-sports, should there be separate leagues for men and women.

there's no shortage of commitment being put in by most female athletes, but a significant disadvantage that can't be overcome with effort: so they earn a medium to compete. but a huge lack of effort from female gamers despite their potential should exclude them from the same privilege, nothing is stopping them from being competitive but themselves. Lowering the bar is an unhealthy thing to do, just look at what happened to the North American league of legends scene once esports became region-locked? A horrid joke compared to other regions, never to change..

I think that idea would have the same effect on the female esports scene, to a degree. Also it would just be this weird interim joke league even to the people playing. Girls who are actually interested in being competitive and put in the time to do so are going to participate, and realize "Wow, this is really easy." and quickly outgrow it to participate in real events, only leaving behind those who weren't good enough to move on from it. Does this paint a good picture of female gamers?

Green Platinum wrote:

The disparity of men vs. women in high level competition even exists in professional chess.

I don't think it is just reaction time at play here.

relevant
"Stereotype threat is a situational predicament in which people are or feel themselves to be at risk of confirming negative stereotypes about their social group. Stereotype threat has been shown to reduce the performance of individuals who belong to negatively stereotyped groups"
Not saying that there aren't more reasons, just thought that might be interesting.



@Kittez: Your part about statistics didn't make sense. You can draw statistics from any group if your sample is well balanced and sufficiently big. Bigger samples, just as more balanced ones, yield more predictive power than shitty small samples and samples that were put together by someone who skewed the sample through his own biased selection.
It doesn't matter for your statistics if one group is way bigger than the other, the two samples just have to be comparable both in size and representativeness. 1/1 and 1/8 are both just fine to study.
And yes, the absolute difference between men and women would change if you look at greater groups, but thats not important. Relative difference is important, and that one stays at 1/8. Nobody out-weighs anybody more than in the beginning, since out-weighing is about relative difference, which stays constant all the time.