Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Guideline] Ample time before first object

posted
Total Posts
27
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat
It used to be in the Ranking Criteria (at least I could have sworn it was D:), but now I just realised it's gone (unless my memory is failing me now). It used to be that the minimum time needed before the first object from the start of the song was 2000ms. It might not be in the criteria anymore, but enough time before the first object is still needed, or the player might not be prepared enough to start playing.

What I suggest is that 1500~2000ms is highly recommended to be given before the first object from the start of the song, and if there isn't enough time they should edit the AudioLeadIn in the .osu in Notepad in the editor. I don't know if 1500ms would be adequate time, I would honestly encourage that the baseline mark would be 2000ms because I feel 1500ms isn't enough time, but I have been rebutted against that (and since I just realised it's not a rule anymore, I can't object anything). Not sure if it should be a Rule or a Guideline, but I feel that lead-in is really important and I have no idea why it was taken out of the criteria.
captin1
osu! Alumni
2,607 posts
Joined February 2011
captin1
1500 is generally acceptable, 2000 is ideal

100% support this, lack of audioleadin creates a lot of frustration especially when one retries a map multiple times and is forced to do so more than necessary from the first object coming so suddenly (one instance that comes to mind quickly for me is Koigokoro which is quite fun to play on DT other than the first pattern because there isn't enough audioleadin)
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
At the current moment, the game will automatically add an audio lead in until there is 1800ms before the first object.
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat

those wrote:

At the current moment, the game will automatically add an audio lead in until there is 1800ms before the first object.
even with that, only when I added 2000ms into the Audio lead in for a song I had my first object at 00:00:336 did it feel decent enough of a pause before the 1st note
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Quite honestly though, since Audio Leadin was taken out of the editor, this sounds more like a feature request rather than something mappers need to keep their mind on.

Talk to a dev.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,848 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY

those wrote:

At the current moment, the game will automatically add an audio lead in until there is 1800ms before the first object.
This often gets broken though, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/314645&m=0
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi

KRZY wrote:

This often gets broken though, https://osu.ppy.sh/b/314645&m=0
Should this be a technical support problem then?
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx

those wrote:

At the current moment, the game will automatically add an audio lead in until there is 1800ms before the first object.
Pretty much why I don't see why a lack of audio lead-in in the .osu files is such a huge issue.

I've never had trouble with being unprepared for a song because the first object comes in too early. I have always had ample time to start, and sometimes get annoyed that the song isn't starting fast enough... I don't know what you guys are taking your time doing after you click play if your pen/mouse isn't ready in the time the game automatically gives you.
Natsu
8,076 posts
Joined September 2012
Natsu

xxdeathx wrote:

those wrote:

At the current moment, the game will automatically add an audio lead in until there is 1800ms before the first object.
Pretty much why I don't see why a lack of audio lead-in in the .osu files is such a huge issue.

I've never had trouble with being unprepared for a song because the first object comes in too early. I have always had ample time to start, and sometimes get annoyed that the song isn't starting fast enough... I don't know what you guys are taking your time doing after you click play if your pen/mouse isn't ready in the time the game automatically gives you.
try the insane diffs in this mapset then: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/314455

captin1 wrote:

1500 is generally acceptable, 2000 is ideal

100% support this, lack of audioleadin creates a lot of frustration especially when one retries a map multiple times and is forced to do so more than necessary from the first object coming so suddenly (one instance that comes to mind quickly for me is Koigokoro which is quite fun to play on DT other than the first pattern because there isn't enough audioleadin)
totally agree with this ^ (btw is this confirmed as a bug? or not
xxdeathx
2,661 posts
Joined July 2013
xxdeathx
[quote="Natsu"]

try the insane diffs in this mapset then: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/314455

just did. what's wrong with it?
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat
If the game doesn't automatically add it in, shouldn't the mapper just ensure that it gives ample time at the start of the map?
In the end, if the mapper adds I'm more than 1800ms of time before the first pattern, then there will no longer any worry osu doesn't give 1800ms at the start, there won't be any issues. It's not like adding numbers into audio lead in takes great effort. Instead of depending on something that might not work, ensure it is 100% working all the time.
I honestly don't see 1800ms applied when playing maps all the time
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
The point is, since it was taken away from the editor, it is meant to be automated. If it isn't functioning properly or if you feel you want to propose a change, the Feature Request or Technical Support forum will do that for you.
Kodora
Kodora

those wrote:

The point is, since it was taken away from the editor, it is meant to be automated. If it isn't functioning properly or if you feel you want to propose a change, the Feature Request or Technical Support forum will do that for you.
It's functionality can be easily improved via allowing editing .osu for audio lead-in officially - thought, lots of mappers already doing it commonly to avoid problems with playability for players.

About proposed guideline: totally supporting. I think it might be even a rule, cuz there is no problem about fixing audio-lead in for mappers, and notes, which starting too fast, in most of cases are too annoying for players.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
@Kodora, why shall the issue be fixed by allowing some manual changes, when it is supposed to be automated? Anyway, it shall not be role or guideline, this belongs to Technical Support - after dev will fix it, there will be no need to change the rules.
Kodora
Kodora

Wafu wrote:

@Kodora, why shall the issue be fixed by allowing some manual changes, when it is supposed to be automated? Anyway, it shall not be role or guideline, this belongs to Technical Support - after dev will fix it, there will be no need to change the rules.
Because we're talking about issue and way of fixing it, not about "how it supposed to work". As long as manual changes used for improvement of gameplay, there is nothing wrong about that.

To be completely honest, you know, feature requests usually waiting for ages to be implemented, and lots of tech support reports stores on "low priority" forum for too long. We shouldn't make troubles for mappers and players by unnecessary waiting, considering that this issue can be easily fixed by improvement of RC.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
It was once implemented for a reason and it will be fixed if someone puts it into Technical Support. If it is low priority or not is not important thing. It is a technical issue, not a problem related to beatmapping itself, so in conclusion, ranking criteria will be just another complication for mappers and you will probably have to wait till dev fixes it, it is probably not that much of a wrong, so it maybe might be solved quickly, if not, then you will just have to wait.
Kodora
Kodora
You seems to misunderstand the point. Adding Audio Lead-In is already automated indeed, but this often get broken (like in KRZY's example). Since this feature doesn't work 100% perfectly, then we should change Ranking Criteria to allow mappers fix this issue in an old way officially (considering that people already doing it commonly), at least until this automated process will be fixed/improved somehow.

Waiting isn't really good solution in this case - you know, you can't just stop mappers from mapping or BATs from ranking until something important will be added/fixed/improved - new maps getting ranked everyday, and such "waiting" will only give more & more problematic maps.

There is not much to discuss, in my opinion. This should be added to RC as a rule that map must have audio lead-in if it's necessary - players won't care is this issue of mapper or of dev - this is problem, and this problem is needs to be fixed. Maps with obvious playability problems shouldn't get ranked, right? And, you know, manual lead-in didn't affect automatic one.
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat

Kodora wrote:

new maps getting ranked everyday, and such "waiting" will only give more & more problematic maps.
It's because of this that I wanted to push for this to either be a Guideline or Rule, because I'm afraid mappers might not take the suggestion of adding lead-in when there isn't sufficient time, because it's not stated anywhere in the wiki.

That would mean until the bug is gone, if such maps get ranked, there will be problems
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
You're playing the role of a vigilante. Consider the following:

"The police isn't doing their job, so I'll do their job for them and arrest criminals."
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat
So it's wrong to maybe help a lady who is being robbed when there isn't any cops around. Because in your context, this is how I see this as; helping when there is lack thereof, which in your case is the presence of the cops
Last edited by neonat , edited 1 time in total.
neonat
Beatmap Nominator
3,535 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
neonat
Is it so wrong, to try to ask for this to be written down, so that there is some backing to this, so that it wouldn't be taken so lightly? If it wasn't buggy anymore by all means remove it from the wiki, but it isn't right now. Is it not allowed to have this to ensure maps have no issues with starting too early for the time being?
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
Nevertheless, this does not need a rule for two reasons. First one, it is obviously going to be fixed. Second one, there is BAT and QAT team, which will surely test map before ranking. Do you think they would rank a beatmap which starts at 0 ms, so you have to play just when the song starts? I think not. This is really a thing of common sense. I don't think there will be a BAT/QAT complaining about manually set audio lead-in to avoid problems.

I pretty much agree what those said. Mappers can still map and players can still play, because common sense is still a part of modding/mapping and everyone of staff members will understand if you change it manually to avoid a current bug. Adding a temporary rules is nonsense. You guys are the ones who misunderstand the point. Because of one or two maps, there is no reason to implement a rule, WHEN it is a technical issue that WILL be fixed as soon as possible, if you post it into technical issues. If there is a low affect of gameplay, it can be marked as low priority, if it afflicts the map to unplayable statement, then it probably will have higher priority. You have to take in consideration the common sense - Things which are written in ranking criteria can be broken under some circumstances, same as some things which are not even mentioned in ranking criteria are unrankable.

So in short, if it is wrong, BAT/QAT/even normal modder will mention it, even through it is forbidden by ranking criteria and won't rank something what is unplayable.
Kodora
Kodora

those wrote:

"The police isn't doing their job, so I'll do their job for them and arrest criminals."
Also please consider that police's work should be effective enough for the sake of nomocracy. Helping police is greatly encouraged at lots of states - for example, we had Voluntary People's Druzhina in USSR - just volunteers, who helped police with their job, and this was officially supported by government. Moreover, such system was working greatly against criminals.

Wafu wrote:

First one, it is obviously going to be fixed.
Everything is going to be fixed/changed with time. You know, request for separating Approach Rate from Overral Difficulty took 3 or 4 years to be implemented. Request for allowing decimal values for difficulty settings was here around 2010, but was implemented only in 2014. Bug with popping mesagges took several years to be fixed too. If we can fix obvious problem just by fixing one outdated rule for the sake if gameplay improvement - what's wrong with it?

Wafu wrote:

Second one, there is BAT and QAT team, which will surely test map before ranking. Do you think they would rank a beatmap which starts at 0 ms, so you have to play just when the song starts? I think not. This is really a thing of common sense. I don't think there will be a BAT/QAT complaining about manually set audio lead-in to avoid problems.
You actually just re-phrased my post and said why this rule change is nesessary - you know, editing .osu for fixing this bug with audio lead-in is "forbidden" under current RC
Kodora
Kodora

Wafu wrote:

Things which are written in ranking criteria can be broken under some circumstances, same as some things which are not even mentioned in ranking criteria are unrankable.
What?

All rules are exactly that: RULES. They are NOT guidelines and may NOT be broken under ANY circumstance
Just for clarification: only rules can't be broken in any cases, and only rules says what's unrankable.

Another important point what seems to be missed - sometimes audio lead-in is nesessary not only for a first object, which comes too fast, but for storyboard too - like at this map, for example.
DakeDekaane
osu! Alumni
3,500 posts
Joined February 2012
DakeDekaane
How about reporting the issue in Technical Support (if not reported yet), and let the modding process fix the lead-in time in case it is too short?

Although I agree this should be somewhat implemented, if the feature is there, but buggy, then just let the right people handle that, while we fix this in the manual way until it's done.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
It apparently seems you are the person to cry over his rule not being implemented. Yes, it says rules cannot be broken under any circumstance, BUT does that mean it won't get rank or get unranked, when there is a clearly obvious reason to? Just use that common sense and be patient till dev fixes this. I am not saying it is wrong, but not that important to include as a rule because it works like this even without making it a rule - it is totally obvious staff members will accept usage of manual audio lead-in. I guess, you are not a little child, so don't cry over things being changed slowly, we don't critically need to change it just now by adding rule which is nonsense, because it still will be allowed when a staff member sees it.. Nonetheless, if you play such a map, which starts early, you still can move cursor on the start and then press retry button, you will see it is clearly playable, so it does not need change of ranking criteria, just will be fixed as a technical issue no matter how long it takes, because it does not afflict at all if you press retry button.

And you could finally send it to technical support, maybe it can be fixed faster than you'd think, but ignoring it is causing nothing to happen. If you don't tell anyone your idea, it will be ignored and will never be considered. So just press that New Topic button and describe this issue and don't care about how long is it going to take..

If you want to continue this argument, then send a PM rather than spamming here. I know you want to protect your opinion, but you just want to add something what already works, because the common sense is also used here. Nobody's going to unrank map using lead-in, and it will be ignored in ranking process now, EVEN if it is against ranking criteria. I think this is not going to change something nor you are going to write to technical support, but at least I hope you understand you cannot accept when your idea is denied by someone.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Discussions have been brought to a close here. Give me a poke with a proper wording if you wish to continue this.

Flaming.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 27