Hmm. Well, I don't know what I'm struggling with since I can actually HDHR decently already. It's just things like triples and doubles that I mess up on.Riddle wrote:
Identify what makes HR difficult for you. If it's the AR, practice AR10 maps or turn some easier maps into AR10 in the editor. If it's the circle size, play CS5 maps and if it's the OD, just keep playing and you'll get more accurate over time. Some people find it easier to learn HR and HD together.
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Learning HDHR
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Topic Starter
Don't do this. Then don't do this. Finally, don't do this.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster. (Seems stupid, I know, but Osu is the only thing I'm interested in right now, and I get good grades without giving much of a damn, so if I means I can get better at Osu in the long run then I'm fine with a little sacrifice)
Also, don't do this.
If you can already play HD then you don't need to learn it, you just need to learn HR. People always seem to associate them two together, sure they are both mods that make the game harder to read, but they definitely aren't the same thing / similar.
You seem to have decent accuracy, you probably won't struggle too much with the OD of HR once getting used to it, which shouldn't take too long, cos again, you have decent accuracy. It's probably the AR10 part that's mostly holding you back. I can't actually properly read AR10, but I randomly was able to read AR9.6 one day without even trying or training for it, despite AR9 being too fast for me at one point. The same would probably happen for AR10 eventually. Maybe try reading something in between first, like AR9.6, that will also help your speed anyway.
You seem to have decent accuracy, you probably won't struggle too much with the OD of HR once getting used to it, which shouldn't take too long, cos again, you have decent accuracy. It's probably the AR10 part that's mostly holding you back. I can't actually properly read AR10, but I randomly was able to read AR9.6 one day without even trying or training for it, despite AR9 being too fast for me at one point. The same would probably happen for AR10 eventually. Maybe try reading something in between first, like AR9.6, that will also help your speed anyway.
Edit: Also, if you're really "In No Hurry", then you wouldn't do this, huehue.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster
Topic Starter
So I shouldn't get good grades?!Narrill wrote:
Don't do this. Then don't do this. Finally, don't do this.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster. (Seems stupid, I know, but Osu is the only thing I'm interested in right now, and I get good grades without giving much of a damn, so if I means I can get better at Osu in the long run then I'm fine with a little sacrifice)
Also, don't do this.
Thanks for the advice. I was reading forums as I said before and it said that things like AR will just randomly "click" so I guess I just have to wait for that to happen. Also, too bad you couldn't beat [T A T]. The 4 digits were just too strong. lolCheezstik wrote:
You seem to have decent accuracy, you probably won't struggle too much with the OD of HR once getting used to it, which shouldn't take too long, cos again, you have decent accuracy. It's probably the AR10 part that's mostly holding you back. I can't actually properly read AR10, but I randomly was able to read AR9.6 one day without even trying or training for it, despite AR9 being too fast for me at one point. The same would probably happen for AR10 eventually. Maybe try reading something in between first, like AR9.6, that will also help your speed anyway.
Nah we deserved that loss, they played terribly, but we played even worse. We purposefully picked the easy mapset so my partner had a chance (as he couldn't FC the insanes in the insane mapset), and literally every player in the match broke on all rounds, yep, a bunch of rank 8ks (and a 20k) getting shit tier accuracy / combo on 3-4 star maps rofl.In No Hurry wrote:
Also, too bad you couldn't beat [T A T]. The 4 digits were just too strong. lol
Topic Starter
My team was doing that too. I think we just aren't cut out for tournaments. lolcheezstik wrote:
Nah we deserved that loss, they played terribly, but we played even worse. We purposefully picked the easy mapset so my partner had a chance (as he couldn't FC the insanes in the insane mapset), and literally every player in the match broke on all rounds, yep, a bunch of rank 8ks (and a 20k) getting shit tier accuracy / combo on 3-4 star maps rofl.In No Hurry wrote:
Also, too bad you couldn't beat [T A T]. The 4 digits were just too strong. lol
Learning to play AR8 with DT first should work as a nice stepping stone toward AR10.
http://ask.fm/jesse1421/answer/117721992760Narrill wrote:
Don't do this. Then don't do this. Finally, don't do this.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster. (Seems stupid, I know, but Osu is the only thing I'm interested in right now, and I get good grades without giving much of a damn, so if I means I can get better at Osu in the long run then I'm fine with a little sacrifice)
Also, don't do this.
yeah you need to work your muscles hard to improve stamina
I never had pain in my keyhand and my speed still improved a lot over time. I don't think it need to hurt for improvement.B1rd wrote:
http://ask.fm/jesse1421/answer/117721992760
Well there's definitely a limit, you shouldn't need to be causing any permanent damage to your wrist playing osu. There's a difference between hands being sore for a couple days, and developing RSI, arthritis, or CTSor Ebola?.
The best way to learn HDHR is to play HDHR. If you have problems with the AR, then just memorize the map. The more you keep doing this, the easier it'll become and eventually you won't even need to memorize any more. Don't really bother trying to learn HDHR by playing high AR songs, low CS songs, etc individually because in the end, it's not as efficient.
All you've proven is that jesse doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. Ignoring the blatant ignorance in the claim that everything besides speed and stamina is non-physical, you shouldn't be experiencing pain of any kind. Not only is there no reason for pain to be prerequisite for improvement from a biological standpoint (hint: pain doesn't serve the purpose you think it serves), pushing to the point of pain probably means you're completely precluding conscious monitoring of technique and promoting bad habits. Do you push to the point of pain when building speed on an instrument? No, so why would it make sense to push to the point of pain on osu!?B1rd wrote:
http://ask.fm/jesse1421/answer/117721992760
There are no potential health risks unless you play unpreparingly (i.e. no proper warmups, stretching)
and even then, the most you'll get is a sore wrist unless you play in an awkward position
and even then, the most you'll get is a sore wrist unless you play in an awkward position
Nooblet has like 99.75% accuracy and drops to like 92% when he plays HR. Seriously, having high accuracy on nomod is comepletely different. Also, unstable rate just says how consistently off you are. If you are always consistently 10ms off you can still get 100% nomod and have godly unstable rate while having shit accuracy on HR because you are consistently slow.cheezstik wrote:
If you can already play HD then you don't need to learn it, you just need to learn HR. People always seem to associate them two together, sure they are both mods that make the game harder to read, but they definitely aren't the same thing / similar.
You seem to have decent accuracy, you probably won't struggle too much with the OD of HR once getting used to it, which shouldn't take too long, cos again, you have decent accuracy. It's probably the AR10 part that's mostly holding you back. I can't actually properly read AR10, but I randomly was able to read AR9.6 one day without even trying or training for it, despite AR9 being too fast for me at one point. The same would probably happen for AR10 eventually. Maybe try reading something in between first, like AR9.6, that will also help your speed anyway.Edit: Also, if you're really "In No Hurry", then you wouldn't do this, huehue.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster
Also, listen to narrill. He plays HDHR the right way (or so I've heard).
That's because of the AR though.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here.chainpullz wrote:
Also, listen to narrill. He plays HDHR the right way (or so I've heard).
Well you can dispute what he said and throw around accusations of ignorance all you want, but you don't exactly have much credibility when Jesse is faster than you, which is the topic that you imply to have better understanding of.Narrill wrote:
All you've proven is that jesse doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. Ignoring the blatant ignorance in the claim that everything besides speed and stamina is non-physical, you shouldn't be experiencing pain of any kind. Not only is there no reason for pain to be prerequisite for improvement from a biological standpoint (hint: pain doesn't serve the purpose you think it serves), pushing to the point of pain probably means you're completely precluding conscious monitoring of technique and promoting bad habits. Do you push to the point of pain when building speed on an instrument? No, so why would it make sense to push to the point of pain on osu!?B1rd wrote:
http://ask.fm/jesse1421/answer/117721992760
I find your statement pretty much completely false, if you want to improve from a biological aspect then pain is a prerequisite, no pain no gain. If you want to get flexible you have to stretch, which is painful. If you want good cardio you have to jog, or if you want to get strong you have to wear down your muscles until they can't continue, all of which is pain in a certain sense.
And that is pretty much the theme of his answer, you have to push your streaming ability to its limit. It doesn't mean that if you develop pain caused from symptoms of carpal tunnel or RSI etc. that you should continue, like you wouldn't continue if you sprained your ankle while jogging. There is beneficial pain, and then there is detrimental pain.
Your point about instruments is immaterial. Instruments, like the non-speed and stamina aspect of osu!, is almost completely mental. It's all about building up the neural pathways and whatnot.
The thing is though, osu isn't stretching, cardio, getting strong, or anything like that etc., it's a rhythm game. Ask any pro that played ddr or beatmania or even guitar hero (lol) if they had to experience pain to get good stamina or speed. While I wouldn't say experiencing pain is completely useless or negative, it's definitely not a prerequisite, I'd call it a supplement to improving, and like all supplements, overdosing or misusing it will fk you up.B1rd wrote:
I find your statement pretty much completely false, if you want to improve from a biological aspect then pain is a prerequisite, no pain no gain. If you want to get flexible you have to stretch, which is painful. If you want good cardio you have to jog, or if you want to get strong you have to wear down your muscles until they can't continue, all of which is pain in a certain sense.
And that is pretty much the theme of his answer, you have to push your streaming ability to its limit. It doesn't mean that if you develop pain caused from symptoms of carpal tunnel or RSI etc. that you should continue, like you wouldn't continue if you sprained your ankle while jogging. There is beneficial pain, and then there is detrimental pain.
Your point about instruments is immaterial. Instruments, like the non-speed and stamina aspect of osu!, is almost completely mental. It's all about building up the neural pathways and whatnot.
It is. Getting faster and getting more stamina is a physical thing, you have to develop your finger muscles.cheezstik wrote:
The thing is though, osu isn't stretching, cardio, getting strong, or anything like that etc.
Do you remember when you first started playing and you couldn't play very fast at all? I highly doubt everyone had the physical ability to stream at even a somewhat average speed like 160-180bpm when they started out, or the stamina to keep it up for long. I know I definitely didn't have to feel pain to get to speed that basic, but I didn't start out with that speed. (Talking purely about speed and stamina, not things like accuracy and aim etc.) Anyway the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you don't have to feel pain to improve speed or stamina, it might be an indicator that you are, but it is definitely not 100% required, or a prerequisite like you say.B1rd wrote:
It is. Getting faster and getting more stamina is a physical thing, you have to develop your finger muscles.cheezstik wrote:
The thing is though, osu isn't stretching, cardio, getting strong, or anything like that etc.
Of course you don't have to exert much effort to reach a mediocre ability level. But you don't become an athlete by taking casual stroll everyday.
Yeah but I still went from less than mediocre to mediocre didn't I? In order to do that, I improved, and during that improvement, I didn't feel pain, the prerequisite you mentioned for improvement.B1rd wrote:
Of course you don't have to exert much effort to reach a mediocre ability level. But you don't become an athlete by taking casual stroll everyday.
Irrelevant fiddly details.
Your evidence for your argument is actually less than mine, even though I'll accept that I may be wrong, you're incredibly hypocritical to say that "jesse doesn't have any idea" when I have case evidence as my reasoning. If my method didn't work in some way then I'd be slow as fuck, luckily I'm not and until someone comes out and says they stream better than me using what you view as the correct method I'll continue with my beliefs.Narrill wrote:
All you've proven is that jesse doesn't have any idea what he's talking about. Ignoring the blatant ignorance in the claim that everything besides speed and stamina is non-physical, you shouldn't be experiencing pain of any kind. Not only is there no reason for pain to be prerequisite for improvement from a biological standpoint (hint: pain doesn't serve the purpose you think it serves), pushing to the point of pain probably means you're completely precluding conscious monitoring of technique and promoting bad habits. Do you push to the point of pain when building speed on an instrument? No, so why would it make sense to push to the point of pain on osu!?B1rd wrote:
http://ask.fm/jesse1421/answer/117721992760
Learning a technique =/= developing physically. My point is more about pushing yourself and pain is an indicator that you might be doing it right. You will never get as fast as the fastest people if you don't physically try, physically trying is probable to cause some sort of "painful" feeling in your arms. I personally still believe that if there isn't at least discomfort at the start of a stream then you're (at most) developing technique, not physical ability. Ever since I knew what streams were I've been trying incredibly hard on them and it got me to where I am today; it was lewa that made me realize that people might actually not be putting physical effort into streaming, before that I didn't even consider it possible to stream without effort but after our discussion it dawned on me that it's probably stranger to people to start putting a different kind of effort into their streaming.cheezstik wrote:
Do you remember when you first started playing and you couldn't play very fast at all? I highly doubt everyone had the physical ability to stream at even a somewhat average speed like 160-180bpm when they started out, or the stamina to keep it up for long. I know I definitely didn't have to feel pain to get to speed that basic, but I didn't start out with that speed. (Talking purely about speed and stamina, not things like accuracy and aim etc.) Anyway the bigger point I'm trying to make is, you don't have to feel pain to improve speed or stamina, it might be an indicator that you are, but it is definitely not 100% required, or a prerequisite like you say.
Anyway about HDHR, I have no clue that shit's cray cray.
I've actually been applying Jesse's ideology for improving my stream speed. Although I don't actually feel any pain because I use the correct posture, but my hand gets tired as fuck and sometimes my fingers just decide to stop working, and I try push them further before throwing in the towel. But despite all that, I've seen drastic improvements over the past few months, considering that I don't intentionally hurt myself.
Then again, this applies to building upon an already well-founded technique. On the maps I was playing, I didn't have problems with finger control (except when tired), trying to read or be accurate (not referring to the statistic, but the actual feeling for accuracy). These maps were only faster than what I am comfortable with, within reason of playability (I could theoretically hit every note). My only problem was speed and stamina so the brute force method is pretty effective in this case. If you're just going to hammer your keys without applying any thought, of course you won't see results. Your reading, accuracy and ability to interpret rhythms also develop with speed training, so they must be there in the first place.
HR is of course a similar thing, except you are forcing your mind to learn something, to be more accurate, precise, and read faster... and is of course built upon an already well-founded technique. I don't know how HDHR turned into stream speed? You don't need to hurt yourself to learn HR, but oh well.
Then again, this applies to building upon an already well-founded technique. On the maps I was playing, I didn't have problems with finger control (except when tired), trying to read or be accurate (not referring to the statistic, but the actual feeling for accuracy). These maps were only faster than what I am comfortable with, within reason of playability (I could theoretically hit every note). My only problem was speed and stamina so the brute force method is pretty effective in this case. If you're just going to hammer your keys without applying any thought, of course you won't see results. Your reading, accuracy and ability to interpret rhythms also develop with speed training, so they must be there in the first place.
HR is of course a similar thing, except you are forcing your mind to learn something, to be more accurate, precise, and read faster... and is of course built upon an already well-founded technique. I don't know how HDHR turned into stream speed? You don't need to hurt yourself to learn HR, but oh well.
I played HDHR for two years and still can't read AR10 streams
Case evidence? You have one case. That's significant enough to prove that your method doesn't guarantee bad results, but not much more than that. As for my argument, I have ten years of musical experience under my belt. I won't say that qualifies me as an authority on the subject, but since you've taken this discussion past "this is what I did and it seems to have worked" we're dealing with theory, and you don't have nearly enough evidence to make concrete theoretical claims. So I'm falling back on theory to explain my argument.jesus1412 wrote:
Your evidence for your argument is actually less than mine, even though I'll accept that I may be wrong, you're incredibly hypocritical to say that "jesse doesn't have any idea" when I have case evidence as my reasoning. If my method didn't work in some way then I'd be slow as fuck, luckily I'm not and until someone comes out and says they stream better than me using what you view as the correct method I'll continue with my beliefs.
Let me say this again: pain doesn't do what you think it does.
You can push to the point of tiredness and beyond without feeling any pain. Pain comes from unnecessary strain, and if it's strong enough to be more noticeable than just a feeling of tiredness you're doing something wrong. Stamina may be purely physical, but speed comes from muscle control, and you don't build muscle control with pain. In fact, you go out of your way to avoid it.
Stretching is not painful. Jogging is not painful. Exhaustion is not the same thing as pain, and jesse has specifically stated that he's arguing for pushing past the point where that distinction occurs. In fact, "pushing past" is the wrong choice of words since pain isn't a natural extension of exhaustion. It's more like he's suggesting cross-grading to pain for some reason.B1rd wrote:
I find your statement pretty much completely false, if you want to improve from a biological aspect then pain is a prerequisite, no pain no gain. If you want to get flexible you have to stretch, which is painful. If you want good cardio you have to jog, or if you want to get strong you have to wear down your muscles until they can't continue, all of which is pain in a certain sense.
...
Your point about instruments is immaterial. Instruments, like the non-speed and stamina aspect of osu!, is almost completely mental. It's all about building up the neural pathways and whatnot.
As for instruments, they aren't "almost completely mental" at all. I'm honestly floored that you could sincerely think that. Many instruments are far more physically taxing than osu!, and almost every instrument requires physical repetition at speeds similar to osu! that must be practiced just like streaming or single-tapping.
Topic Starter
How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
Shh, just let it happen.In No Hurry wrote:
How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
I can see what you're saying but in my view without pain you'll never know how hard you need to push, if you don't know how to push yourself to the point of discomfort then you probably can't push yourself at all. The pain it really to show a person how much effort they actually need to use rather than expecting results from repetitive alternating that doesn't even phase them. The pain probably doesn't help you improve in itself but the new level of play you're attempting will help you improve, the uncomfortable "out of your league" feeling is just indicating that you've found a level of playing that will physically tax you to the point of improvement. Streaming 240+ is pretty much impossible without discomfort, if you never want to break into the highest speeds then that's fine, keep developing stamina, but you can't develop stamina if you don't already have the speed.Narrill wrote:
Topic Starter
Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
Welcome to G&R. Where you can find advice on things completely irrelevant to the topic title.Narrill wrote:
Shh, just let it happen.In No Hurry wrote:
How did my post on HDHR turn into one about stamina and speed? wut?
Doesn't matter too much. Use NF if the HP drain of the map is high and is causing you to fail. If you are missing lots of notes and failing, you should probably play another map.In No Hurry wrote:
Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
I think the breakdown in communication is due to differing opinions on pain. I define pain as sharp, spontaneous and very much unwanted. I got this in the middle finger of my right hand, and it's why I stopped playing mouse-only altogether.Narrill wrote:
You can push to the point of tiredness and beyond without feeling any pain. Pain comes from unnecessary strain, and if it's strong enough to be more noticeable than just a feeling of tiredness you're doing something wrong. Stamina may be purely physical, but speed comes from muscle control, and you don't build muscle control with pain. In fact, you go out of your way to avoid it.
Pain as a build-up of exhaustion in the muscles... is just exhaustion perceived as pain as it continues to build up. If that's the pain jesse is referring to, it's fine.
Topic Starter
Okay, thanks.RaneFire wrote:
Doesn't matter too much. Use NF if the HP drain of the map is high and is causing you to fail. If you are missing lots of notes and failing, you should probably play another map.In No Hurry wrote:
Uh... Sorry to interrupt, but should I be playing with NF on/off or does it not matter?
2 things:
1) The scientific process behind the building up of muscles involves first the breaking down of your current muscles by acids followed by a recovery period where your muscles grow back in such a way that you end up with more muscles than you started with.
2) In taekwondo we always trained in continuous sessions with no breaks even for water. There were probably many reasons for this though I'm not informed enough on the theory involved in the training regime to explain it.
1) The scientific process behind the building up of muscles involves first the breaking down of your current muscles by acids followed by a recovery period where your muscles grow back in such a way that you end up with more muscles than you started with.
2) In taekwondo we always trained in continuous sessions with no breaks even for water. There were probably many reasons for this though I'm not informed enough on the theory involved in the training regime to explain it.
Topic Starter
I guess my HDHR thread has officially turned into one about how pain is good or bad.
My issue is claiming that that pain should be above and beyond mere exhaustion. Pain above and beyond mere exhaustion isn't pain due to exhaustion, and for that reason it's often detrimental.jesus1412 wrote:
The pain it really to show a person how much effort they actually need to use rather than expecting results from repetitive alternating that doesn't even phase them.
I agree. The ask question posted seemed to indicate a different sort of pain than this.RaneFire wrote:
Pain as a build-up of exhaustion in the muscles... is just exhaustion perceived as pain as it continues to build up. If that's the pain jesse is referring to, it's fine.
As a musician myself with 12 years on the piano, I can say that you're totally right about straining your hands not being necessary to improve, and it really is to be avoided, when it comes to instruments.Narrill wrote:
As for instruments, they aren't "almost completely mental" at all. I'm honestly floored that you could sincerely think that. Many instruments are far more physically taxing than osu!
It's also true that intruments can be physically taxing generally, however there might be something to it, that speed on intruments is mostly a mental thing, since I'm really as fast as it gets on the piano, and I'm still struggling with speed on osu. I have no idea why that is, but it could be that speed on instruments never reaches the point where it gets physically challenging, and it really could be mostly a mental thing, knowing what to play, and which fingers to use fast enough.
Or I might just suck at pushing buttons fast other than pianokeys..
winnie pls
I had a buddy who thought like this, trying to get his Squat up to 495lbs.In No Hurry wrote:
P.S. I'm fine with pains and potentially damaging my wrist if it means I can get better faster. (Seems stupid, I know, but Osu is the only thing I'm interested in right now, and I get good grades without giving much of a damn, so if I means I can get better at Osu in the long run then I'm fine with a little sacrifice)
He took a trip to snap city and his squat is basically 0 now. No pain no gain, it's true, but only up to the point where it doesn't interfere with your training.