Yeah, I've seen a few emperorpenguin AR11 plays, although with HD >.>Faces3 wrote:
see: emperorpenguin and listlessB1rd wrote:
No one can read ar11. don't even try.
show more
Keep in mind that even easy insane dts can be hard with the addition of small circles and the extremely high OD
Emperorpenguin83 is currently the best AR10.3+ player in existence.
Reaction time isn't a very valid point, since playing higher AR we hone our reaction times; hell, my reaction time has gotten much faster since I've played osu.
AR11 isn't just looking at approach circles either. Follow points appear before the actual circle, however I'm not that experienced with follow points so I can't utilise them properly
Also, the effect of HR with high speed maps is much bigger than you think when you're given that small of a window to react.
But that is to say, I'm not saying that it's plausible that people could read AR11 as well as they could AR9 or AR10, but simply it is possible to sightread at AR11.
those AR10 comments were sarcasm anyway.
http://osu.ppy.sh/u/read00001234
But a reaction test doesn't necessarily mean you have X amount of time to spare for reading either. You don't read with your fingers, you read with your eyes and brain, and those are much closer together than your brain is to your fingers. Sending the message is all that is done, whereas a reaction test requires the recognition aspect as well as sending the signal. Reading actually fits in the middle of all that, not the end or beginning.
With training you can drop your reaction times quite significantly, since upon first playing osu!, I tested at 230ms, but over the course of playing my reflexes have dropped down to 190ms average (170 low) and stayed there for the past 2 years.
A rule of thumb, I like to apply, is that you can eventually, with practice, read as fast as double your trained average reaction time.
It's unfair to compare an unpracticed reaction test vs a game so fervently practiced, where your reactions, attention and focus are truly at their best. However, the processing of information (recognising objects) is what increases that value a lot. Reacting to a huge coloured area the size of your screen is quite easy by comparison.
We're also talking about reading, not prediction. Prediction is the main reason that easier maps get chosen for the majority of AR11 scores. Tricky parts are memorised, the easy parts are sight-read. Very few people enjoy complete memorisation, akin to FL.
seeing the fastest possible approach rate with the lowest note density is prime training for reaction, but as poop said there's a physical limit to this stuff.
Follow points appear a lot sooner than you think, and it's not hard to react on that one beat on a new combo.
All I said was that the population before said that AR10 was beyond human. And before that, it was AR9. Of course the population that could read the standard AR dropped at each step.
And why are you guys making such a fuss over reaction times? Do you play osu simply by reaction to every circle? There's more to a map than just "OMG NEXT CIRCLE THER".
Reaction times faster than 200ms is much more common in the competitive gaming community than the general population, so you guys are just basing your claims over irrelevant info, and what you should assume is that the player has faster reaction time than just the "average" because this improves with more training.
edit: the point of the topic is not that AR11 would become the standard or not, but if AR11 is sightreadable. The physical limit is not between ar10.3-11 and that's a fact.
Topic Starter
I'm pretty sure less than 5 people in the world can actually read ar11. As far as I know, none of those people are in the top 10 ranking, so it's a pretty hard thing to be able to do, if people with enough dedication to get top 10 haven't even learned to read it.
As for tips, I guess it would be the usual play more. I heard HD makes ar11 a lot easier, but I'm shit at HD, and I can barely do 10.3, so I wouldn't know. It seems like you'd have to have a pretty crazy reaction time to read AR11.
As for tips, I guess it would be the usual play more. I heard HD makes ar11 a lot easier, but I'm shit at HD, and I can barely do 10.3, so I wouldn't know. It seems like you'd have to have a pretty crazy reaction time to read AR11.
play a lot of it
the high OD + dt is a huge problem with ar11 however since it's mostly only achievable with double rock
quite a lot of people can.B1rd wrote:
No one can read ar11. don't even try.
the high OD + dt is a huge problem with ar11 however since it's mostly only achievable with double rock
who can? is there anyone who can sight read FC a decently hard song at AR11?
What would you classify as "decently hard"?B1rd wrote:
who can? is there anyone who can sight read FC a decently hard song at AR11?
Keep in mind that even easy insane dts can be hard with the addition of small circles and the extremely high OD
It's certainly not impossible, but REALLY hard to do, especially maps that are fast and hard by nature. It requires map knowledge and certain amount of retries to be able to play a map correctly with AR11, and, most importantly, extreme warmup in advance (at least in my case).B1rd wrote:
who can? is there anyone who can sight read FC a decently hard song at AR11?
Emperorpenguin83 is currently the best AR10.3+ player in existence.
The hardest part about reading AR11 is sustaining that readability.
A lot of players can read AR10.3 perfectly fine
10.8+fartownik wrote:
Emperorpenguin83 is currently the best AR10.3+ player in existence.
A lot of players can read AR10.3 perfectly fine
Topic Starter
I can play AR10.3 but AR11 I just die almost instantly. It might be HR and the CS making it seem more difficult, idk. Should I just play a lot of AR11 NF?
Well, I meant everything above 10.3.buny wrote:
The hardest part about reading AR11 is sustaining that readability.10.8+fartownik wrote:
Emperorpenguin83 is currently the best AR10.3+ player in existence.
A lot of players can read AR10.3 perfectly fine
I used to play impossible maps with AR11 in order to play it properly. If you do so, the easier ones will feel like a cake.Pengua wrote:
I can play AR10.3 but AR11 I just die almost instantly. It might be HR and the CS making it seem more difficult, idk. Should I just play a lot of AR11 NF?
Try editing the map to ar10 by default, so you only need to add dt to make it ar11, and not hr.Pengua wrote:
I can play AR10.3 but AR11 I just die almost instantly. It might be HR and the CS making it seem more difficult, idk. Should I just play a lot of AR11 NF?
pretty sure the supposed ar11 have even said themselves that they pretty much memorize the map. thus no one can actually read it, but many people are good at it. personally i would not say i cannot read ar 10.3 at all, but i can still get fc's with it.
I think you mean .04 seconds. Average human reaction time is around 250ms, and AR11 is 300ms.Faces3 wrote:
funfact : ar11 is about .4 ms above human reaction time
/me fixesNarrill wrote:
I think you mean .04 seconds. Average human reaction time is around 250ms, and AR11 is 300ms.Faces3 wrote:
funfact : ar11 is about .4 ms above human reaction time
Emperorpenguin is just sick... anyway i don´t know how his sight is after rertying an ar11 song alot, i personally end up pretty bad after some 10.3 session, have to focus alot.
he plays with hidden, so it's not that much strainIchi wrote:
Emperorpenguin is just sick... anyway i don´t know how his sight is after rertying an ar11 song alot, i personally end up pretty bad after some 10.3 session, have to focus alot.
ya know if you play a map a lot/memorize it that's when higher ARs become doable. I literally learned AR8 DT by playing a map i knew really well constantly, and it made the AR seem slower than it actually is. It requires a lot of memorization, but not as much as FL for example
Nobody can do ar10 without memorisation
The line between reaction and reading at AR11 is quite slim tbh. You couldn't say for sure if a person is reading the map or just reacting to it.
That's what people said about AR10 few years back also.
Well 280BPM+ AR10 isn't exactly easy to read :"D.buny wrote:
That's what people said about AR10 few years back also.
280bpm+ looks better on 10.3
This.winber1 wrote:
pretty sure the supposed ar11 have even said themselves that they pretty much memorize the map. thus no one can actually read it, but many people are good at it. personally i would not say i cannot read ar 10.3 at all, but i can still get fc's with it.
There are plenty of people who sightread fc ar10 maps.buny wrote:
Nobody can do ar10 without memorisation
anyone that claims to sightread ar10 are hackers
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
buny I get the point you're trying to make, but note that at some aspects of the game, certain physically induced limits cannot be broken. The amount of ms it takes for the visual input to appear on the screen, be recognized by our eyes, be transmitted to our brain through neurocytes and be processed by the brain so we can actually react to it ultimately adds up to something between 250 and 300 ms, depending on the person.
AR11 is 300 ms, so we have around 50 ms MAXIMUM for aiming and clicking. It's just not possible to understand complex patterns and rhythmic variations during such a short time while you're still focussing on aiming the previous objects. Emperorpenguin's scores are mostly on extreeeemely simple and straightforward maps (e.g. Koigokoro or Streamline Prism) and even for those he needed a whole lot of tries.
I don't mean to say that one can't react in time when an object appears on screen at AR11, and penguin probably didn't completely memorize every single circle of every map he plays, but as it stands, there's no one who can safely sightread AR11 the way others can casually pull of AR9
AR11 is 300 ms, so we have around 50 ms MAXIMUM for aiming and clicking. It's just not possible to understand complex patterns and rhythmic variations during such a short time while you're still focussing on aiming the previous objects. Emperorpenguin's scores are mostly on extreeeemely simple and straightforward maps (e.g. Koigokoro or Streamline Prism) and even for those he needed a whole lot of tries.
I don't mean to say that one can't react in time when an object appears on screen at AR11, and penguin probably didn't completely memorize every single circle of every map he plays, but as it stands, there's no one who can safely sightread AR11 the way others can casually pull of AR9
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
He fc'ed a lot. But they all took a lot of attempts.Dragon One wrote:
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
what Cookiezi did is irrelevant for normal people.
I'll have to agree and disagree, since I don't think anybody has dedicated themselves enough to AR11 to be able to read it casuallyZare wrote:
buny I get the point you're trying to make, but note that at some aspects of the game, certain physically induced limits cannot be broken. The amount of ms it takes for the visual input to appear on the screen, be recognized by our eyes, be transmitted to our brain through neurocytes and be processed by the brain so we can actually react to it ultimately adds up to something between 250 and 300 ms, depending on the person.
AR11 is 300 ms, so we have around 50 ms MAXIMUM for aiming and clicking. It's just not possible to understand complex patterns and rhythmic variations during such a short time while you're still focussing on aiming the previous objects. Emperorpenguin's scores are mostly on extreeeemely simple and straightforward maps (e.g. Koigokoro or Streamline Prism) and even for those he needed a whole lot of tries.
I don't mean to say that one can't react in time when an object appears on screen at AR11, and penguin probably didn't completely memorize every single circle of every map he plays, but as it stands, there's no one who can safely sightread AR11 the way others can casually pull of AR9
Reaction time isn't a very valid point, since playing higher AR we hone our reaction times; hell, my reaction time has gotten much faster since I've played osu.
AR11 isn't just looking at approach circles either. Follow points appear before the actual circle, however I'm not that experienced with follow points so I can't utilise them properly
Also, the effect of HR with high speed maps is much bigger than you think when you're given that small of a window to react.
But that is to say, I'm not saying that it's plausible that people could read AR11 as well as they could AR9 or AR10, but simply it is possible to sightread at AR11.
those AR10 comments were sarcasm anyway.
http://puu.sh/bSjyI/57a0e68950.osrDragon One wrote:
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
buny, we're talking around 50ms for an average person to interpret patterns. Five hundredths of a second. That's seriously stretching the limits of what's possible, and I doubt there are any players out there right now who, even if they dedicated all their time to learning AR11, could sight-read a fairly complex map at that sort of speed.
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
you forgot him, he's always on the top ranks at hard diffs...Faces3 wrote:
see: emperorpenguin and listlessB1rd wrote:
No one can read ar11. don't even try.
http://osu.ppy.sh/u/read00001234
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
There's no need for AR11 in my opinion. Ar should scale with the BPM and the object density to let the player see everything while there's no shitload of weird things on the screen. There are too many maps that are mapped with 10 that could easily be AR9 to be more appealing to a greater mass of players. Except theyre not because hurr durr AR10 so pro Cookiezi incoming
As impossible as it might seem, there's that guy that can chop a bb gun pellet in half with a sword as it is flying at him, crazy shit like that makes me think that eventually, years from now, someone will be able to read ar11. Maybe it will even become how ar10 is now, and the new setting to compete over will be cs :O.Narrill wrote:
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
The problem here is people think they have to react to high approach rates.
To expand on what I'm saying, your eyes are slow and there's latency in computers. If your audio settings are synced properly you can simply predict notes. If a mapper has done a good job on the map then the player can hit all the notes consistently. Problem is lots of mappers put stray shit everywhere and don't know what the hell they're doing. There's lots of issues with consistency in mapping. Players/mappers in this generation favor random spurt patterns though because the focus is on it being a challenge.
Yeah, it's about memorizing if you want to do super low object density.
To expand on what I'm saying, your eyes are slow and there's latency in computers. If your audio settings are synced properly you can simply predict notes. If a mapper has done a good job on the map then the player can hit all the notes consistently. Problem is lots of mappers put stray shit everywhere and don't know what the hell they're doing. There's lots of issues with consistency in mapping. Players/mappers in this generation favor random spurt patterns though because the focus is on it being a challenge.
Yeah, it's about memorizing if you want to do super low object density.
I agree with that average amongst gamers tbh. When humanbenchmark.com was only known to a smaller population nearer 7 years ago, the average was 215ms for quite a long time. It's only as more users (read: untrained noobs) have started "testing" their reflexes, that the average has risen over the years. They still list the median as 215, even though clearly 270ms has more hits.Narrill wrote:
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
But a reaction test doesn't necessarily mean you have X amount of time to spare for reading either. You don't read with your fingers, you read with your eyes and brain, and those are much closer together than your brain is to your fingers. Sending the message is all that is done, whereas a reaction test requires the recognition aspect as well as sending the signal. Reading actually fits in the middle of all that, not the end or beginning.
With training you can drop your reaction times quite significantly, since upon first playing osu!, I tested at 230ms, but over the course of playing my reflexes have dropped down to 190ms average (170 low) and stayed there for the past 2 years.
A rule of thumb, I like to apply, is that you can eventually, with practice, read as fast as double your trained average reaction time.
It's unfair to compare an unpracticed reaction test vs a game so fervently practiced, where your reactions, attention and focus are truly at their best. However, the processing of information (recognising objects) is what increases that value a lot. Reacting to a huge coloured area the size of your screen is quite easy by comparison.
Sure, but reaction speed sets the baseline.Dexus wrote:
The problem here is people think they have to react to high approach rates.
To expand on what I'm saying, your eyes are slow and there's latency in computers. If your audio settings are synced properly you can simply predict notes. If a mapper has done a good job on the map then the player can hit all the notes consistently. Problem is lots of mappers put stray shit everywhere and don't know what the hell they're doing. There's lots of issues with consistency in mapping. Players/mappers in this generation favor random spurt patterns though because the focus is on it being a challenge.
Yeah, it's about memorizing if you want to do super low object density.
We're also talking about reading, not prediction. Prediction is the main reason that easier maps get chosen for the majority of AR11 scores. Tricky parts are memorised, the easy parts are sight-read. Very few people enjoy complete memorisation, akin to FL.
That is right but if you're playing osu! and don't suck your reaction speed is no slower than 4 tenths of a second. Usually you'd be sitting at 3 tenths or lower if you've properly trained on AR10, 10.3, 10.8
Here's an interesting article if anyone wants to read http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/reactiontime.html
Here's an interesting article if anyone wants to read http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/reactiontime.html
Unfortunately, reaction time is highly genetic and typically can only improve 10 to 20%. Two things that help improve it are stimulants and overspeed training.Well my reactions improved 20% already, so I guess that's as good as I'm going to get.
that article has a whole lot of depressing stuff about natural born genetic advantages.
One way to apply overspeed training is by watching replays of AR10 and hitting the 2x speed button (speed modify it first to be slower so it's played at a realistic pace). You would essentially be playing relax without the feedback but the speed is faster than ar11. Doing that several hours a day on and off could possibly yield results if anyone is willing to try it.
I personally have not tried to train my reaction times, but when I'm lazy I get 300ms, when I focus I get 220 to 230ms, and then when I drink coffee I get 185 to 190ms reaction times.
I personally have not tried to train my reaction times, but when I'm lazy I get 300ms, when I focus I get 220 to 230ms, and then when I drink coffee I get 185 to 190ms reaction times.
ZenithPhantasm
it is.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Like everything in life some people are just better at certain things. Nothing to get depressed about.
I don't think you have to go to these extremes, training 10.3 or even 10.1 would be enough to do this 'overspeed training' I think.Dexus wrote:
One way to apply overspeed training is by watching replays of AR10 and hitting the 2x speed button (speed modify it first to be slower so it's played at a realistic pace). You would essentially be playing relax without the feedback but the speed is faster than ar11. Doing that several hours a day on and off could possibly yield results if anyone is willing to try it.
I personally have not tried to train my reaction times, but when I'm lazy I get 300ms, when I focus I get 220 to 230ms, and then when I drink coffee I get 185 to 190ms reaction times.
I hate coffee with all my heart and soul, TEA FOR LIFE MEN. However, auto mode sped up replays are interesting but this would require a lot of patience to pull off.
Topic Starter
Well, there's been a lot of discussion about AR11 in general but besides raw memorization, it seems like the only thing I can do is train reaction time.
ZenithPhantasm
I'm aware of all that, the 75ms thing is just a rudimentary estimate I throw around to remind people that we're literally talking about hundredths of a second here. The best of the best (meaning less than the top 1% of the playerbase, give or take) can read 10.3, and 10.3 is a full 100ms slower than AR11. That's a monumental difference, and while it may be misguided to question whether it's at all possible to sight-read at such a speed, we absolutely should question whether it's feasible for a player with near-average reaction times to reach a level where they could sight-read a map of average complexity at ar11. That's the tone this conversation should have.RaneFire wrote:
I agree with that average amongst gamers tbh. When humanbenchmark.com was only known to a smaller population nearer 7 years ago, the average was 215ms for quite a long time. It's only as more users (read: untrained noobs) have started "testing" their reflexes, that the average has risen over the years. They still list the median as 215, even though clearly 270ms has more hits.
But a reaction test doesn't necessarily mean you have X amount of time to spare for reading either. You don't read with your fingers, you read with your eyes and brain, and those are much closer together than your brain is to your fingers. Sending the message is all that is done, whereas a reaction test requires the recognition aspect as well as sending the signal. Reading actually fits in the middle of all that, not the end or beginning.
With training you can drop your reaction times quite significantly, since upon first playing osu!, I tested at 230ms, but over the course of playing my reflexes have dropped down to 190ms average (170 low) and stayed there for the past 2 years.
A rule of thumb, I like to apply, is that you can eventually, with practice, read as fast as double your trained average reaction time.
It's unfair to compare an unpracticed reaction test vs a game so fervently practiced, where your reactions, attention and focus are truly at their best. However, the processing of information (recognising objects) is what increases that value a lot. Reacting to a huge coloured area the size of your screen is quite easy by comparison.
The thing is, AR10.3 is 400ms whereas AR11 is 300ms. That's a pretty big difference, and assuming your reaction time is roughly 200ms, then on AR11 you have 100ms to react to the note and 200ms to react on AR0.3. That's a MASSIVE difference. So when people think "hey, AR10 used to be fast to the general population, doesn't that mean eventually AR11 will be the same?" It just doesn't work. Imagine if AR12 was a thing. It would literally be impossible to sightread it, because you can't react until AFTER THE NOTE HAS PASSED. Therefore, there has to be some line where sightreading simply becomes unfeasable for those of us without god-tier reaction times, and I assert that line is somewhere between AR10.3 and AR11. Processing the note and moving to it within 100ms is just too hard without knowing the map quite well, even on maps without long jumps. Yes, followpoints do slightly help this 100ms figure, but it has no effect on new combos, and is still super fast regardless.
... but I can already read up to AR10.6.B1rd wrote:
I don't think you have to go to these extremes, training 10.3 or even 10.1 would be enough to do this 'overspeed training' I think.
seeing the fastest possible approach rate with the lowest note density is prime training for reaction, but as poop said there's a physical limit to this stuff.
That's where you're wrong.pooptartsonas wrote:
Yes, followpoints do slightly help this 100ms figure, but it has no effect on new combos, and is still super fast regardless.
Follow points appear a lot sooner than you think, and it's not hard to react on that one beat on a new combo.
All I said was that the population before said that AR10 was beyond human. And before that, it was AR9. Of course the population that could read the standard AR dropped at each step.
And why are you guys making such a fuss over reaction times? Do you play osu simply by reaction to every circle? There's more to a map than just "OMG NEXT CIRCLE THER".
Reaction times faster than 200ms is much more common in the competitive gaming community than the general population, so you guys are just basing your claims over irrelevant info, and what you should assume is that the player has faster reaction time than just the "average" because this improves with more training.
edit: the point of the topic is not that AR11 would become the standard or not, but if AR11 is sightreadable. The physical limit is not between ar10.3-11 and that's a fact.
You've got this backwards. It would actually be much easier if osu! were purely reactionary.buny wrote:
And why are you guys making such a fuss over reaction times? Do you play osu simply by reaction to every circle? There's more to a map than just "OMG NEXT CIRCLE THER".
I don't think this was ever in question. As I said, the point of the topic should be whether it's reasonable to expect ar11 sight-reading to occur with regularity outside the top .01% of the playerbase at any point in the future. The question isn't whether the absolute physical limit lies below ar11, it's whether that limit lies low enough for a lower caliber of player to reach.buny wrote:
edit: the point of the topic is not that AR11 would become the standard or not, but if AR11 is sightreadable. The physical limit is not between ar10.3-11 and that's a fact.
Well, a lot of posts like
Will it become the standard for top tier players? Probably not, since it is unnecessary to go anything above 10 really.
Is it possible for a single person to read AR11? Yes.
B1rd wrote:
who can? is there anyone who can sight read FC a decently hard song at AR11?
winber1 wrote:
pretty sure the supposed ar11 have even said themselves that they pretty much memorize the map. thus no one can actually read it, but many people are good at it. personally i would not say i cannot read ar 10.3 at all, but i can still get fc's with it.
imply that it isn't possible for anybody to sight read AR11, and I'm simply disagreeing with it.TUOPlays wrote:
ya know if you play a map a lot/memorize it that's when higher ARs become doable. I literally learned AR8 DT by playing a map i knew really well constantly, and it made the AR seem slower than it actually is. It requires a lot of memorization, but not as much as FL for example
Will it become the standard for top tier players? Probably not, since it is unnecessary to go anything above 10 really.
Is it possible for a single person to read AR11? Yes.
I love how buny is fighting a one man war over here lol. With that said, coffee is love, coffee is life. I hate the taste by the way.
Weak. Ik u said this 10 years ago but like u cant even read ar 11?B1rd wrote:
No one can read ar11. don't even try.
Sorry, but you can not just come to a 10 year old legendary post with just “hehe you can’t read it, look at us now hehe”, feel free to make a new post making fun of old players, but this is personally just disrespectful in my opinion. Also making fun of people for not being able to read AR11 as a 600k player just makes it even more disgusting for me, oh and bonus, you’re not supposed to add new posts to topics that haven’t been active for a decade, especially if you have nothing of value to add
You're right about the necro but tbh I think he's just kiddingSnapy wrote:
Sorry, but you can not just come to a 10 year old legendary post with just “hehe you can’t read it, look at us now hehe”, feel free to make a new post making fun of old players, but this is personally just disrespectful in my opinion. Also making fun of people for not being able to read AR11 as a 600k player just makes it even more disgusting for me, oh and bonus, you’re not supposed to add new posts to topics that haven’t been active for a decade, especially if you have nothing of value to add