Well 280BPM+ AR10 isn't exactly easy to read :"D.buny wrote:
That's what people said about AR10 few years back also.
Well 280BPM+ AR10 isn't exactly easy to read :"D.buny wrote:
That's what people said about AR10 few years back also.
This.winber1 wrote:
pretty sure the supposed ar11 have even said themselves that they pretty much memorize the map. thus no one can actually read it, but many people are good at it. personally i would not say i cannot read ar 10.3 at all, but i can still get fc's with it.
There are plenty of people who sightread fc ar10 maps.buny wrote:
Nobody can do ar10 without memorisation
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
He fc'ed a lot. But they all took a lot of attempts.Dragon One wrote:
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
I'll have to agree and disagree, since I don't think anybody has dedicated themselves enough to AR11 to be able to read it casuallyZare wrote:
buny I get the point you're trying to make, but note that at some aspects of the game, certain physically induced limits cannot be broken. The amount of ms it takes for the visual input to appear on the screen, be recognized by our eyes, be transmitted to our brain through neurocytes and be processed by the brain so we can actually react to it ultimately adds up to something between 250 and 300 ms, depending on the person.
AR11 is 300 ms, so we have around 50 ms MAXIMUM for aiming and clicking. It's just not possible to understand complex patterns and rhythmic variations during such a short time while you're still focussing on aiming the previous objects. Emperorpenguin's scores are mostly on extreeeemely simple and straightforward maps (e.g. Koigokoro or Streamline Prism) and even for those he needed a whole lot of tries.
I don't mean to say that one can't react in time when an object appears on screen at AR11, and penguin probably didn't completely memorize every single circle of every map he plays, but as it stands, there's no one who can safely sightread AR11 the way others can casually pull of AR9
http://puu.sh/bSjyI/57a0e68950.osrDragon One wrote:
Which song?Aria Kanzaki wrote:
Cookiezi FCed an AR 11 song
you forgot him, he's always on the top ranks at hard diffs...Faces3 wrote:
see: emperorpenguin and listlessB1rd wrote:
No one can read ar11. don't even try.
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
As impossible as it might seem, there's that guy that can chop a bb gun pellet in half with a sword as it is flying at him, crazy shit like that makes me think that eventually, years from now, someone will be able to read ar11. Maybe it will even become how ar10 is now, and the new setting to compete over will be cs :O.Narrill wrote:
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
I agree with that average amongst gamers tbh. When humanbenchmark.com was only known to a smaller population nearer 7 years ago, the average was 215ms for quite a long time. It's only as more users (read: untrained noobs) have started "testing" their reflexes, that the average has risen over the years. They still list the median as 215, even though clearly 270ms has more hits.Narrill wrote:
I am the 48%. I double checked, and average human reaction time is actually closer to 215ms, so 75ms to interpret patterns. Still, that's not a lot of time.buny wrote:
I heard 52% of statistics are made on the spot.
Sure, but reaction speed sets the baseline.Dexus wrote:
The problem here is people think they have to react to high approach rates.
To expand on what I'm saying, your eyes are slow and there's latency in computers. If your audio settings are synced properly you can simply predict notes. If a mapper has done a good job on the map then the player can hit all the notes consistently. Problem is lots of mappers put stray shit everywhere and don't know what the hell they're doing. There's lots of issues with consistency in mapping. Players/mappers in this generation favor random spurt patterns though because the focus is on it being a challenge.
Yeah, it's about memorizing if you want to do super low object density.
Unfortunately, reaction time is highly genetic and typically can only improve 10 to 20%. Two things that help improve it are stimulants and overspeed training.Well my reactions improved 20% already, so I guess that's as good as I'm going to get.
it is.ZenithPhantasm wrote:
Like everything in life some people are just better at certain things. Nothing to get depressed about.
I don't think you have to go to these extremes, training 10.3 or even 10.1 would be enough to do this 'overspeed training' I think.Dexus wrote:
One way to apply overspeed training is by watching replays of AR10 and hitting the 2x speed button (speed modify it first to be slower so it's played at a realistic pace). You would essentially be playing relax without the feedback but the speed is faster than ar11. Doing that several hours a day on and off could possibly yield results if anyone is willing to try it.
I personally have not tried to train my reaction times, but when I'm lazy I get 300ms, when I focus I get 220 to 230ms, and then when I drink coffee I get 185 to 190ms reaction times.
I'm aware of all that, the 75ms thing is just a rudimentary estimate I throw around to remind people that we're literally talking about hundredths of a second here. The best of the best (meaning less than the top 1% of the playerbase, give or take) can read 10.3, and 10.3 is a full 100ms slower than AR11. That's a monumental difference, and while it may be misguided to question whether it's at all possible to sight-read at such a speed, we absolutely should question whether it's feasible for a player with near-average reaction times to reach a level where they could sight-read a map of average complexity at ar11. That's the tone this conversation should have.RaneFire wrote:
I agree with that average amongst gamers tbh. When humanbenchmark.com was only known to a smaller population nearer 7 years ago, the average was 215ms for quite a long time. It's only as more users (read: untrained noobs) have started "testing" their reflexes, that the average has risen over the years. They still list the median as 215, even though clearly 270ms has more hits.
But a reaction test doesn't necessarily mean you have X amount of time to spare for reading either. You don't read with your fingers, you read with your eyes and brain, and those are much closer together than your brain is to your fingers. Sending the message is all that is done, whereas a reaction test requires the recognition aspect as well as sending the signal. Reading actually fits in the middle of all that, not the end or beginning.
With training you can drop your reaction times quite significantly, since upon first playing osu!, I tested at 230ms, but over the course of playing my reflexes have dropped down to 190ms average (170 low) and stayed there for the past 2 years.
A rule of thumb, I like to apply, is that you can eventually, with practice, read as fast as double your trained average reaction time.
It's unfair to compare an unpracticed reaction test vs a game so fervently practiced, where your reactions, attention and focus are truly at their best. However, the processing of information (recognising objects) is what increases that value a lot. Reacting to a huge coloured area the size of your screen is quite easy by comparison.
... but I can already read up to AR10.6.B1rd wrote:
I don't think you have to go to these extremes, training 10.3 or even 10.1 would be enough to do this 'overspeed training' I think.
That's where you're wrong.pooptartsonas wrote:
Yes, followpoints do slightly help this 100ms figure, but it has no effect on new combos, and is still super fast regardless.
You've got this backwards. It would actually be much easier if osu! were purely reactionary.buny wrote:
And why are you guys making such a fuss over reaction times? Do you play osu simply by reaction to every circle? There's more to a map than just "OMG NEXT CIRCLE THER".
I don't think this was ever in question. As I said, the point of the topic should be whether it's reasonable to expect ar11 sight-reading to occur with regularity outside the top .01% of the playerbase at any point in the future. The question isn't whether the absolute physical limit lies below ar11, it's whether that limit lies low enough for a lower caliber of player to reach.buny wrote:
edit: the point of the topic is not that AR11 would become the standard or not, but if AR11 is sightreadable. The physical limit is not between ar10.3-11 and that's a fact.
B1rd wrote:
who can? is there anyone who can sight read FC a decently hard song at AR11?
winber1 wrote:
pretty sure the supposed ar11 have even said themselves that they pretty much memorize the map. thus no one can actually read it, but many people are good at it. personally i would not say i cannot read ar 10.3 at all, but i can still get fc's with it.
imply that it isn't possible for anybody to sight read AR11, and I'm simply disagreeing with it.TUOPlays wrote:
ya know if you play a map a lot/memorize it that's when higher ARs become doable. I literally learned AR8 DT by playing a map i knew really well constantly, and it made the AR seem slower than it actually is. It requires a lot of memorization, but not as much as FL for example