LtBeanSniffer wrote:

TheBurningFlame wrote:

I don't think that singletapping helps streaming abilities. But really it's whatever. Single-tapping or full-alt. You could learn singletapping because it probably won't affect your alternation ability, so just try to learn it.

It may sound strange but I have heard this from quite a few people at this point. I'm still kinda unsure of it but I figure there must be some reason that so most people single tap.

Because there are an innumerable amount of threads about single-tapping vs alternating. For the older community threads like these are almost cringe worthy, since it's been discussed and asked countless times.

Since I'm too lazy to find the threads, I'll just explain a few things that have been brought up.

Firstly, most people single-tap because generally people find it easier to focus on one thing at a time. Therefore, instead of having to deal with hitting accurately with two fingers, beginners could just focus on using on finger. I mean there's a variety of other reasons, but it really boils down to the fact that single-tapping is generally more intuitive. And since single-tapping is learned first, it becomes more natural than alternating. If some people start out alternating (to save energy or for whatever other reason), then alternating becomes more comfortable because it was learned first.

There is no "reason" per se. It's more the fact that it usually comes more naturally that way. Rarely does anyone start playing this game with a methodically thought out reason as to whether he or she should single-tap or not.

Also the fact that very few have really been able to truly switch from single-tapping to full alternate comfortably, whereas many alternaters have quite easily switched to single-tapping without much problem, strengthening the fact that single-tapping is generally more natural.

Second, single-tapping makes increasing stamina and speed easier because it forces the player to use more energy and push their limits. For example, when you play a 220BPM song, the single tappers will be tapping all of those eighth notes, basically jackhammering one key with one finger. This will push the player more than an alternater who would generally be more relaxed (the real feel to these players would be an 110BPM stream, which is not hard at all). And as you play more, the extra muscle strength and stamina does make a noticeable difference, but it doesn't mean alternating is inferior in any way.

Metro used to full-alt when he played. He did get top tier scores on very hard maps such as http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40344.

The reason I, and many other people imo, don't full alt is similar to the reason you press both pedals with one foot while driving, and not use both feet at the same time. I used to play full alt a long time ago when I was a lot worse at the game, that was mostly cos I was slow though, and songs I played then just went along with the beat like a metronome. As songs start getting more complex rhythms and triplets etc, it gets too confusing.

Also, I definitely think singletap helps streaming, cos if you think about it, you can stream nearly twice as fast as you can singletap, so improving singletap speed will improve stream speed. Evidence of this is the player doomsday, a notable streamer, can singletap at insane speeds, as seen in this video:



Anyway, to complete my previous analogy, some people drive manual, and have no problem using both feet at the same time and not getting confused, and manual definitely has its advantages.

I turned into an alternater like five months after I started playing, mainly cause I had an horrible single tapping speed. I've been alternating since then, and now I full alternate all the songs. Anyways, I know a lot of people that alternate that are in the top players, with the ones that single tap, so your playstyle doesn't matter as long as you feel comfortable with it...

Also I think that pretty much every thing that winber1 pointed is true... so, you just have to play the style you feel more natural. (ofc, both playstyles have their own pros and cons when exposed to the other one, but at the very end, you'll be able to play descently if you practice enough)

I don't full alt, but I practice alternating so I can eventually do maps like scarlet rose, since I don't think I'll be developing insane singletapping speed anytime soon. I want to eventually develop full finger control, so I can choose to singletap or alternate at will. I still have problems trying to alternate high bpm though, and I always get confused about which finger to start on on triples and streams.

I'm most likely one of the extremely rare cases of people who used to single tap but switched to alternating. It just feels more natural than single tapping for some reason, can't see myself going back.

It's just a play style, plenty of people full alt.

When I was a bit nooby, I didn't really mastered full-alt, but now I pretty much full alt all the time .

Though, I even full-alt just because I think I might miss the incoming sliders or hit circles if the map is tricky or is to fast .

Full alternate.

I watched a couple of liveplays on youtube before I started playing and I noticed that sometimes the player only presses one button and sometimes presses both. I tried this myself but didn't have any idea when to alternate (of course because I was playing 1 star maps). Then I decided to just alternate all the time.

I changed to full-alt when I realised how low my stamina is when I single-tap everything in the harder maps.

xYamiHikari wrote:

I changed to full-alt when I realised how low my stamina is when I single-tap everything in the harder maps.

Same here. I call my tap style half alternate until I learn how to full alternate.

I've been a full alternator ever I started using my keyboard to click

uh

I only alt on streams/ fast singles, I single tap on jumps and sliders and things.

my playstyle is strange.
sometimes im pressing (example buttons: z,x) zzxz and sometimes more x than z, kinda hard to explain.

Learn to use both at suitable times. That is the best way.

Bauxe wrote:

Learn to use both at suitable times. That is the best way.

So halfalternate is best?

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Bauxe wrote:

Learn to use both at suitable times. That is the best way.

So halfalternate is best?

yes,

because it's basically how i play, and i am best player hands down

no competition

I agree, half alternate is the best.

winber1 wrote:

Also the fact that very few have really been able to truly switch from single-tapping to full alternate comfortably, whereas many alternaters have quite easily switched to single-tapping without much problem, strengthening the fact that single-tapping is generally more natural.

It may a bit difficult, but the brain is adaptable, single tappers should be able to full alternate if they put in enough effort.

Well, I switched from singletapping to full alternating at around #10k. I found it to be more fun and I'm a pianist anyway, I don't have a problem with using more than one finger

I can still singletap, but I almost never do, don't really feel that I need it anymore.

Drezi wrote:

I'm a pianist

That's just not fair though.

I full-alt.

Singletapping reminds me of only down-strumming on guitar when I started. Was always treated as more of a bad habit and improper form except when looking for certain sounds. I'll have the occasional time where I do a set of quick singles to the tune of a drum rudiment, but that's about it (LLRR, RRLLR, etc)

Klockwerk wrote:

I full-alt.

Singletapping reminds me of only down-strumming on guitar when I started. Was always treated as more of a bad habit and improper form except when looking for certain sounds. I'll have the occasional time where I do a set of quick singles to the tune of a drum rudiment, but that's about it (LLRR, RRLLR, etc)

Except with guitar, how fast you can downstroke doesn't translate to how fast you can tremolo pick, whereas on osu a fast single tapper will probably be a fast streamer and vice versa. Downstroke only is good for metal palm mute sound, or if it's what you prefer - just cos you can downstroke fast doesn't mean you will tremolo pick faster.

cheezstik wrote:

Except with guitar, how fast you can downstroke doesn't translate to how fast you can tremolo pick, whereas on osu a fast single tapper will probably be a fast streamer and vice versa.

Single tapping is a completely different movement pattern than streaming, I find it strange how everyone seems to agree that getting better at singletapping trains your streaming ability too.

Drezi wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

Except with guitar, how fast you can downstroke doesn't translate to how fast you can tremolo pick, whereas on osu a fast single tapper will probably be a fast streamer and vice versa.

Single tapping is a completely different movement pattern than streaming, I find it strange how everyone seems to agree that getting better at singletapping trains your streaming ability too.

ye you dont get any better at streaming by singletapping, only by streaming. i guess if you practiced finger only singletapping by keeping your wrist as still as possible and switched up the finger you did it with.. maybe? why wouldnt you just practice streaming instead though at that point.

stream ability and stream speed are different things.

singletapping will, guaranteed, increase your ability to stream faster better than going full alt. however full alternaters can obviously be faster streamers than some singletappers if they train correctly or by natural talent.

and note that he says fast streamer, and he even says probably, thus there is nothing wrong with his comment

the small things matter guys. pls.

only size matters

teemo would disagree

Drezi wrote:

Single tapping is a completely different movement pattern than streaming, I find it strange how everyone seems to agree that getting better at singletapping trains your streaming ability too.

Riince wrote:

ye you dont get any better at streaming by singletapping, only by streaming. i guess if you practiced finger only singletapping by keeping your wrist as still as possible and switched up the finger you did it with.. maybe? why wouldnt you just practice streaming instead though at that point.

I just realised my embed video link didn't work in my last post, I'll just put the url in this time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr_A3fO5lIQ

Doomsday, one of the best streamers in the world, shows how fast he can single tap in that video. I don't think it's a coincidence that his single tap speed is so fast, something tells me it has to do with his streaming ability.

because maps with fast streams also tend to have fast singletapping he didnt just exclusively practice one

koromo wrote:

I'm most likely one of the extremely rare cases of people who used to single tap but switched to alternating. It just feels more natural than single tapping for some reason, can't see myself going back.

It's just a play style, plenty of people full alt.

^
Been alternating since early 2012

cheezstik wrote:

Except with guitar, how fast you can downstroke doesn't translate to how fast you can tremolo pick, whereas on osu a fast single tapper will probably be a fast streamer and vice versa.

Wrong on both counts.

halfalternate

I call it three-speed. Makes more sense to me.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

Except with guitar, how fast you can downstroke doesn't translate to how fast you can tremolo pick, whereas on osu a fast single tapper will probably be a fast streamer and vice versa.

Wrong on both counts.

I play guitar, tremolo picking was simple and I could literally do it on time accurately within my first week, despite bing slow overall. It's just a vibrating motion while actual controlled picking, downstroke or alternate, is actual picking. And as i linked before, doomsday, one of the best streamers having insane single tap speeds. Same goes for dragonhuman, rrtyui, cookiezi, and WWW, dont think it's coincidence.

Tremolo picking by vibrating your whole arm is bad technique. You should be using more or less the same motion as you do when you alternate, in which case downpicking speed and tremolo speed are just as correlated as downpicking and alternating speed. But even if you do use your arm, the motions are similar enough that improving your downpicking speed will benefit your tremolo speed. The key is that the movement occurs within the same plane of motion for both techniques; the return from a downpick and the upward component of the tremolo pick are, for all techniques, primarily differentiated by the depth of the pick.

Single tapping and streaming, however, don't occur in the same plane of motion; even if you use the same technique for the two, each keypress requires its own discrete motion. If you exclusively use finger motion, each finger must be moved independently. If you exclusively use wrist rotation, the two keypresses occur at opposite extremes of your range of motion. And obviously if you single tap with wrist, or use a hybrid motion, and stream with your fingers you're using two totally different sets of muscles.

The examples you list are all top-level players who, by virtue of their ranks, necessarily excel in all aspects of the game. They aren't valid examples. There are, however, droves of players in the lower ranks who have horrendous discrepancies between their single-tapping and streaming speeds.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

Tremolo picking by vibrating your whole arm is bad technique. You should be using more or less the same motion as you do when you alternate, in which case downpicking speed and tremolo speed are just as correlated as downpicking and alternating speed. But even if you do use your arm, the motions are similar enough that improving your downpicking speed will benefit your tremolo speed. The key is that the movement occurs within the same plane of motion for both techniques; the return from a downpick and the upward component of the tremolo pick are, for all techniques, primarily differentiated by the depth of the pick.

Single tapping and streaming, however, don't occur in the same plane of motion; even if you use the same technique for the two, each keypress requires its own discrete motion. If you exclusively use finger motion, each finger must be moved independently. If you exclusively use wrist rotation, the two keypresses occur at opposite extremes of your range of motion. And obviously if you single tap with wrist, or use a hybrid motion, and stream with your fingers you're using two totally different sets of muscles.

The examples you list are all top-level players who, by virtue of their ranks, necessarily excel in all aspects of the game. They aren't valid examples. There are, however, droves of players in the lower ranks who have horrendous discrepancies between their single-tapping and streaming speeds.

But didn't we agree that single tapping is a matter of preference and not skill? So no matter how high level they are, they are fast single tappers, which is related to their streaming speed, which is also fast, and at the same time, they all prefer single tapping as opposed to alternate. And doomsday is on a considerably lower level than the others, despite still being one of the best in the world, he is really only on the same level as the others at streaming, not aim. Despite being worse than them overall, he has faster single tapping speed than the rest of them, so I think their high level ranks doesn't make them invalid examples.

i can comfortably mantain my singletap up to 260 bpm but can only mantain decent [95%+] acc on 200 bpm streams, but that's because i rarely practice streaming and constantly practice singletapping...

i really should work on my streaming sometime soon.

cheezstik wrote:

But didn't we agree that single tapping is a matter of preference and not skill? So no matter how high level they are, they are fast single tappers, which is related to their streaming speed, which is also fast, and at the same time, they all prefer single tapping as opposed to alternate. And doomsday is on a considerably lower level than the others, despite still being one of the best in the world, he is really only on the same level as the others at streaming, not aim. Despite being worse than them overall, he has faster single tapping speed than the rest of them, so I think their high level ranks doesn't make them invalid examples.

Uhm... what? None of that is relevant to what I said.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

cheezstik wrote:

But didn't we agree that single tapping is a matter of preference and not skill? So no matter how high level they are, they are fast single tappers, which is related to their streaming speed, which is also fast, and at the same time, they all prefer single tapping as opposed to alternate. And doomsday is on a considerably lower level than the others, despite still being one of the best in the world, he is really only on the same level as the others at streaming, not aim. Despite being worse than them overall, he has faster single tapping speed than the rest of them, so I think their high level ranks doesn't make them invalid examples.

Uhm... what? None of that is relevant to what I said.

It's a reply to this part here:

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

The examples you list are all top-level players who, by virtue of their ranks, necessarily excel in all aspects of the game. They aren't valid examples. There are, however, droves of players in the lower ranks who have horrendous discrepancies between their single-tapping and streaming speeds.

So basically, I said they are valid examples and why.

Right, but your why isn't relevant to what I said. Balancing your skills is essential in ranking as highly as they have, so there's nothing special about all of them having similar single-tapping and streaming speeds.

NarrillNezzurh wrote:

Right, but your why isn't relevant to what I said. Balancing your skills is essential in ranking as highly as they have, so there's nothing special about all of them having similar single-tapping and streaming speeds.

That's the thing though, doomsday isn't as balanced as them, he is clearly more focused on streaming, and only his streaming skills can match the streaming of the other players, while his aim is much further behind. Despite being not as good overall, he single taps faster than the other players, which is probably related to him focusing more on streams, and being better at streams than he is at aim.

Anyway, tl;dr and summary of my opinion on single tapping, single tapping = stream speed, faster single tapper = faster streamer, this might not apply to everyone but it definitely seems like the usual, logical fact.

cheezstik wrote:

he single taps faster than the other players, which is probably related to him focusing more on streams, and being better at streams than he is at aim.

???????
he got good at singletapping by singletapping

cheezstik wrote:

That's the thing though, doomsday isn't as balanced as them, he is clearly more focused on streaming, and only his streaming skills can match the streaming of the other players, while his aim is much further behind. Despite being not as good overall, he single taps faster than the other players, which is probably related to him focusing more on streams, and being better at streams than he is at aim.

You're all over the place with this.

First off, I'm glad you also see the correlation between rank and balance of skills. Note that this works against you here.

Second, you state that Doomsday matches the other players you've listed in streaming speeds but surpasses them in single-tapping speed. This implies that the two are, to some degree, independent of each other, which is important because you stated that the general trend is for them not to be.

Third, you still haven't given any evidence to support the claim that single-tapping and streaming speed are linked. You've stated that your own observations have shown this to be the case, but because mine have shown just the opposite that doesn't really mean anything.

Fourth, you still haven't offered a relevant rebuttal to my claim that the players you listed aren't valid examples.