Well, hum.. i'd consider this as a bug.Cherry Blossom wrote:
you can't imagine this
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[Rule Change] Star difficulty change
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Total Posts
85
Scheduled discussion end: 23rd June 2014
Mh.. I was thinking something different, if it is possible to apply lol.
Deciding the diff settings of the mapset starting from the BPM of the song and hence derive the star rating from the used setting according to a formula or to a mathematic average. Well, it's a bit hard to explain it so this should make you get the idea:
BPM 100~140
Easy: The map must have only HP: 1~3 OD: 1~3 AR:1~3 CS:1~2 (If they use like 1/1/1/1 the system should automatically set 0.5 star rating, if 2/2/2/2 should set 1.00, if 3/3/3/2 should set 1.50, if 1/2/2/1 should be 0.75 and so on)
Normal: The map must have only HP:3~5 OD: 3~5 AR: 3~5 CS:2~3 (If they use like 3/3/3/2 the system should automatically set 2.00 and so on like I wrote before and being consistent following the same formula)
BPM: 150~190
Easy: The map must have only HP: 2~3 OD: 2~3 AR:2~3 CS: 1~2 (for all low settings as the easy before still 0.5 and so on, I mean this because higher bpms require higher settings to make it easier or it would be hard. For example: a Normal at 190 BPM is easier with AR 5 than AR 3~4)
This is the same for H/I/X till getting the 10 star rating when we can have kinda 10 star for all max settings. (Still considering the used BPM).
Starting from this we can consider rankable only mapsets with ENH or EN or ENHI or NHI or NH or NHI.
Well, it should follow a "math" criteria, kinda.
It's not easy to explain the concept but I hope you got what I wanted to suggest to do.
Deciding the diff settings of the mapset starting from the BPM of the song and hence derive the star rating from the used setting according to a formula or to a mathematic average. Well, it's a bit hard to explain it so this should make you get the idea:
BPM 100~140
Easy: The map must have only HP: 1~3 OD: 1~3 AR:1~3 CS:1~2 (If they use like 1/1/1/1 the system should automatically set 0.5 star rating, if 2/2/2/2 should set 1.00, if 3/3/3/2 should set 1.50, if 1/2/2/1 should be 0.75 and so on)
Normal: The map must have only HP:3~5 OD: 3~5 AR: 3~5 CS:2~3 (If they use like 3/3/3/2 the system should automatically set 2.00 and so on like I wrote before and being consistent following the same formula)
BPM: 150~190
Easy: The map must have only HP: 2~3 OD: 2~3 AR:2~3 CS: 1~2 (for all low settings as the easy before still 0.5 and so on, I mean this because higher bpms require higher settings to make it easier or it would be hard. For example: a Normal at 190 BPM is easier with AR 5 than AR 3~4)
This is the same for H/I/X till getting the 10 star rating when we can have kinda 10 star for all max settings. (Still considering the used BPM).
Starting from this we can consider rankable only mapsets with ENH or EN or ENHI or NHI or NH or NHI.
Well, it should follow a "math" criteria, kinda.
It's not easy to explain the concept but I hope you got what I wanted to suggest to do.
Shouldn't this all be represented by the star difficulty calculation? You still point up flaws in the star difficulty calculation and not in the rule self.
This would include the rule self if applied as I said here:
Starting from this we can consider rankable only mapsets with ENH or EN or ENHI or NHI or NH or NHI.w/o considering the number of star rating since it has been already considered rankable because of the "logical" star rating formula
Kodora
Sorry, my english is = 0
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It's only ideas.
/me runs.Easy:
AR: 2-3
OD: 1-3
HP: 1-3
CS: 2 or 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider Velocity: Max 1.20
Distance snap: Max 1.0
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.00
Distance Snap: max 1.0
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.90
Distance Snap: max 1.0
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.70
Distance Snap: max 1.2 or 1.4 ?
250 BPM -
Half impossible (?)
Normal:
AR: 4 or 5
OD: 4 or 5
HP: 4 or 5
CS: only 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider Velocity: Max 1.40
Distance Snap: Max 1.2
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.20
Distance Snap: max 1.0
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.00
Distance Snap: max 1.0
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.80
Distance Snap: max 1.4
250 BPM -
Half impossible (?)
----------------------------------------------
if the mapset only (N/H/I):
Normal (Easy?):
AR: 4 or 5
OD: 3 or 4
HP: 3 or 4
CS: 2 or 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.20
Distance Snap: max 1.0
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.90
Distance Snap: max 1.2
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.80
Distance Snap: max 1.2
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.70
Distance Snap: max 1.2
AR: 2-3
OD: 1-3
HP: 1-3
CS: 2 or 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider Velocity: Max 1.20
Distance snap: Max 1.0
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.00
Distance Snap: max 1.0
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.90
Distance Snap: max 1.0
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.70
Distance Snap: max 1.2 or 1.4 ?
250 BPM -
Half impossible (?)
Normal:
AR: 4 or 5
OD: 4 or 5
HP: 4 or 5
CS: only 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider Velocity: Max 1.40
Distance Snap: Max 1.2
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.20
Distance Snap: max 1.0
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.00
Distance Snap: max 1.0
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.80
Distance Snap: max 1.4
250 BPM -
Half impossible (?)
----------------------------------------------
if the mapset only (N/H/I):
Normal (Easy?):
AR: 4 or 5
OD: 3 or 4
HP: 3 or 4
CS: 2 or 3
90BPM - 140 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 1.20
Distance Snap: max 1.0
141BPM - 170 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.90
Distance Snap: max 1.2
170BPM - 200 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.80
Distance Snap: max 1.2
201BPM - 250 BPM :
Slider velocity: max 0.70
Distance Snap: max 1.2
They are the usual used settings anyways, Kodora. -3-"Kodora wrote:
Also i'd personally never suggest making such iron limitations at least for settings
A single fixed number would work better than a lots of stuff imo, that way we keep things simple and not confusing.
putting restrictions is stupid imo, let mappers do what they want and judge things on a per-map basis.
there is nothing to be gained from restricting mapper freedom
there is nothing to be gained from restricting mapper freedom
Setting guidelines of what settings a difficulty should have is better than making it a rule. When a modder/bat looks at it, they should pretty much be able to tell if it is too much for the difficulty. People almost always suggest difficulty setting changes anyways in their mods if they think something is too hard or easy.
I'm refering to the CS/HP/AR/OD/SV etc settings by the way.
Also, allow CS0 please
I'm refering to the CS/HP/AR/OD/SV etc settings by the way.
Also, allow CS0 please
Kodora
We already have guidelines for settings on wiki at every diff (for easiest diffs see this and this). They aren't even part of official guidelines, so if some people wants to discuss them then i guess we should make separated topic.
Thought i personally don't think that CS0 is really nice idea for any map.
Allow "notepad-only" features please ;w;Lanturn wrote:
Also, allow CS0 please
Thought i personally don't think that CS0 is really nice idea for any map.
Why would anyone enforce restrictions on Diff settings on a certain difficulty? o_O
I like my CS4 Normals kthx.
I like my CS4 Normals kthx.
Those tables would be okay for recommendations, but they shouldn't be something set in stone ever. Adjust the settings according to the map.
okay, the criteria is fine. then people can use Ar9.5 ;_;
Just think of a real life law. Law tries to restrict you the minimum to give you freedom, but they are very powerful so that can be virtually never be broken. Setting a harsh, iron law would be really stupid, because the stricter the law is, there will be more situations that law needs to be broken, or everybody agrees that the law should be broken on certain situation (which makes the law feel very weak)
I think something like "Lowest difficulty MUST have 3.5 star or lower, although 2.25 star or below is highly recommended" should inform the mappers that maps are highly encouraged to have 2.25star or below, it will also provide some uber fast BPM maps some exception without breaking the law.
A law should be relatively loose, although guideline can be slightly stricter and applied to most of the case.
I think something like "Lowest difficulty MUST have 3.5 star or lower, although 2.25 star or below is highly recommended" should inform the mappers that maps are highly encouraged to have 2.25star or below, it will also provide some uber fast BPM maps some exception without breaking the law.
A law should be relatively loose, although guideline can be slightly stricter and applied to most of the case.
haha5957 wrote:
Just think of a real life law. Law tries to restrict you the minimum to give you freedom, but they are very powerful so that can be virtually never be broken. Setting a harsh, iron law would be really stupid, because the stricter the law is, there will be more situations that law needs to be broken, or everybody agrees that the law should be broken on certain situation (which makes the law feel very weak)
I think something like "Lowest difficulty MUST have 3.5 star or lower, although 2.25 star or below is highly recommended" should inform the mappers that maps are highly encouraged to have 2.25star or below, it will also provide some uber fast BPM maps some exception without breaking the law.
A law should be relatively loose, although guideline can be slightly stricter and applied to most of the case.
I guess you haven't read this post.Garven wrote:
The point of the low star rating requirement is because high level players can play easier maps. It doesn't go the other way around. End of story. If you want to try writing a new chapter, make a thread about it. This isn't the right place for that line of discussion.
each song should be required to create at least one osumania beatmap, probably taiko and ctb also but idk how their autoconverts run, to encourage people to make more proper beatmaps for osumania players and the other modes if they are also having the same stance with autoconverts
those wrote:
so much pressure
How is this place not to discuss what star rating should be the lowest difficulty?
I expressed my opinion saying 2.25 as highly recommended guideline that should be applied to most maps and 3.5 as ironed restrict so at least lower than average players can play even with those few exceptions that might have been made to extreme mp3s.
someone with different opinion doesnt mean wrong. those.
Your only discussion is based only on the idea that since something happens on the high end of the spectrum, it should be the same on the low end. You just don't seem to understand or accept that this way of thinking is incorrect, as already pointed out.
Have you actually read my post? You are just totally misunderstanding, or assuming others' opinion.
Stop "assuming" others' opinion and talk as if you are superior, you are just totally ignorant on the true point why there shouldn't be an ironed, low limit for easiest difficulty.
There IS going to be an exception for sure if you set LOW ironed star diff limit such as 1.8 because crazy songs do exist.
Rule is something that NEVER should be broken at all the time. You don't seem to understand why laws are pretty loose, but customs are little bit stricter than that.
My point is 2.25 should be the highly recommended GUIDELINE since most of songs will have no problem mapping an 2.25 diff or below when 3.5(which is pretty high,I know) can be the ironed rule that shouldn't be broken at all because 3.5 is obviously very high enough for nearly all songs that might currently exist in earth.
I see no opposing opinion on this from your post, if not everyone's in this thread
Stop "assuming" others' opinion and talk as if you are superior, you are just totally ignorant on the true point why there shouldn't be an ironed, low limit for easiest difficulty.
There IS going to be an exception for sure if you set LOW ironed star diff limit such as 1.8 because crazy songs do exist.
Rule is something that NEVER should be broken at all the time. You don't seem to understand why laws are pretty loose, but customs are little bit stricter than that.
My point is 2.25 should be the highly recommended GUIDELINE since most of songs will have no problem mapping an 2.25 diff or below when 3.5(which is pretty high,I know) can be the ironed rule that shouldn't be broken at all because 3.5 is obviously very high enough for nearly all songs that might currently exist in earth.
I see no opposing opinion on this from your post, if not everyone's in this thread
Remove the 3.5 (which corresponds to nothing as far as I know. See p/3153892 for the star rating levels for each difficulty) portion and change the 2.25 to the hard line it sounds much more reasonable to me. This rule change is basically updating what we have currently to adjust to the new star system.haha5957 wrote:
My point is 2.25 should be the highly recommended GUIDELINE since most of songs will have no problem mapping an 2.25 diff or below when 3.5(which is pretty high,I know) can be the ironed rule that shouldn't be broken at all because 3.5 is obviously very high enough for nearly all songs that might currently exist in earth.
Remember: we want maps to be accessible to as many players as possible. Normal level difficulties are the cutoff for this since that level can encompass the higher BPMs but still be easy enough to be grasped by newer players. Your proposition is far too lenient and will result in many poor difficulty spreads that will leave a large portion of the community out of fully enjoying the song.
2.25 is always acceptable to me, though I think this is too high. A lot of old star 4-star maps are only 2 new stars.
I have to agree that 1.8 is a very reasonable guideline, but this should not be a hard bar, since a lot of old 3 star maps are above this level. I still insist that 2 stars is fair enough.
I have to agree that 1.8 is a very reasonable guideline, but this should not be a hard bar, since a lot of old 3 star maps are above this level. I still insist that 2 stars is fair enough.
2.25 can happen in mapped maps to be easy to play, but with a high BPM.
Also I think it is a reasonable limit to determine if a map is "easy" or not. With the maps I've seen, a higher number that it, I do not think this is easy to play.
Although there is still to know what guideline (respect staring) should follow other game modes (like Ctb).
Also I think it is a reasonable limit to determine if a map is "easy" or not. With the maps I've seen, a higher number that it, I do not think this is easy to play.
Although there is still to know what guideline (respect staring) should follow other game modes (like Ctb).
I agree, we could just set the difficulty as a GUIDELINE and have a BAT judge the difficulty spread before bubbling/ranking? I mean; that's what they're there for right?.Aqo wrote:
putting restrictions is stupid imo, let mappers do what they want and judge things on a per-map basis.
there is nothing to be gained from restricting mapper freedom
lol... i don't think this is the right place to discuss this.laishiou wrote:
each song should be required to create at least one osumania beatmap, probably taiko and ctb also but idk how their autoconverts run, to encourage people to make more proper beatmaps for osumania players and the other modes if they are also having the same stance with autoconverts
Also it takes time for people to learn how to map and play other game modes.. You're asking the impossible out of the mappers
BATs have different opinions and standards, a guideline for this will not work, IMO.Kibbleru wrote:
I agree, we could just set the difficulty as a GUIDELINE and have a BAT judge the difficulty spread before bubbling/ranking? I mean; that's what they're there for right?.Aqo wrote:
putting restrictions is stupid imo, let mappers do what they want and judge things on a per-map basis.
there is nothing to be gained from restricting mapper freedom
If you really think you have to make it a ironed rule, I would say 2.25 but I still do think 2.25 needs to be a very strongly encouraged guideline that cannot be broken without really good reason, and somehow 3.75 needs to be a rule that never can be broken at all the time.
3.75 is definitely too high to be the lowest diff, I don't know why you'd want a difficulty marked as Insane for the lowest diff.
I know most of people would go as "oh it's guideline, then I can break it", even if we try to encourage it a lot.
I know most of people would go as "oh it's guideline, then I can break it", even if we try to encourage it a lot.
that is true lol. they need a new definition of "guideline" to something likeDakeDekaane wrote:
3.75 is definitely too high to be the lowest diff, I don't know why you'd want a difficulty marked as Insane for the lowest diff.
I know most of people would go as "oh it's guideline, then I can break it", even if we try to encourage it a lot.
"Do not break this rules unless you have a VERY good reason to"
2.25 works for me though.
Why guideline? this obviously should be a define rule since we all don't interpret "easy" or "normal" the same way.
and 2,25 is nice
and 2,25 is nice
for the lowest diff in a set? I think 2.25 is too high, that'd put it at the peak of normal where it's very nearly a hard. Plus, mapping a fitting easy that sits below the 2.0 mark for a high bpm map is not as hard as people make it out to be.
Easy maps are there for a reason, for the beginners or very casual players to enjoy the songs they want. They're not for us, and as such we forget that and disregard them
Easy maps are there for a reason, for the beginners or very casual players to enjoy the songs they want. They're not for us, and as such we forget that and disregard them
I mainly map lower difficulties (Easy and Normal) as some of you know, but totally agree with captin1. 2.25 is a bit too high, not friendly for beginners. 2.00 which is almost same as 3.00 in the previous star rating system should be enough in my opinion.captin1 wrote:
for the lowest diff in a set? I think 2.25 is too high, that'd put it at the peak of normal where it's very nearly a hard. Plus, mapping a fitting easy that sits below the 2.0 mark for a high bpm map is not as hard as people make it out to be.
Easy maps are there for a reason, for the beginners or very casual players to enjoy the songs they want. They're not for us, and as such we forget that and disregard them
for sure 2.25 is too much, you can check this normal diff: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/338999&m=3 is 2.12 and I feel is too hard to be the easy diff of the set, 2.00 feel better :3
The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty. This is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love.
The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars.
The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BAT's discretion.
The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars.
The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BAT's discretion.
The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
- Below 1.5: Easy
- Below 2.25: Normal
- Below 3.75: Hard
- Below 5.25: Insane
- Above 5.25: Expert
Loctav wrote:
containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty.
If normal goes to 2.25 stars why must it be below 2.0? Wouldn't it have been better to leave this out entirely and use judgement on what would be considered easy enough to be the lowest difficulty, rather than relying on an automated system that rates some of the hardest maps in the game as an insane, and not expert?Loctav wrote:
The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars
No, because I am sick of subjective judgement. Difficulty calculation can be fixed, subjective failure not. And we all know that the judgement of what is an Easy and what is a Hard and what is a Normal always sucked and at least this is a common ground now
Better get to fixing the fact that a whole third of the spectrum of what is considered a normal by the system is too hard for beginners, then. I do, however, agree that some of the BAT are shit at using common sense in some fields.
It also follows the trend of the old star system where Normal could go above 3.0 but the line was drawn a 3.0. You want a newbie-friendly Normal, not a borderline-Hard Normal.
Does this rule come into effect immediately, or only affect maps submitted after the date? I know the two taiko difficulty rule, and the o!m key spread rule only came into effect for maps submitted after the rule approval date. How is it going to work this time?
What about Guest Difficulty? If a mapset has two diffs which have the same Insanes or Experts, one of them is from the main uploader and one of them is from guest difficulty. Would it be unrankable?Loctav wrote:
If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert.