I use that website as well. If I could show you how it looked back then, I would. But I saw it with my own two eyes. I'm confident with using randomization. The bracket generation will be live streamed on our official twitch channel for the event - http://www.twitch.tv/oukt3

I have confidence randomization will be fine. Trust me, seeding a 64 player tournament isn't as simple as you think it is.

PortalLife wrote:

I use that website as well. If I could show you how it looked back then, I would. But I saw it with my own two eyes. I'm confident with using randomization. The bracket generation will be live streamed on our official twitch channel for the event - http://www.twitch.tv/oukt3

I have confidence randomization will be fine. Trust me, seeding a 64 player tournament isn't as simple as you think it is.

It is as simple as I think it is. You seed players based on rank and then the site deals with the rest. Can I take a look at the bad seeding bracket? If you could enable seeding numbers to be shown too, that'd be great. Either you:
1. Seeded people incorrectly.
2. Accidentally randomised the seeds.
3. You're telling the truth and seeding sometimes messes up. (which makes absolutely no sense considering it's 100% more likely the first two happened.)

I'll take a look and show you exactly what went wrong.

I do have to question your competence as a tournament organiser, however, if you can't even let Challonge seed your tournaments properly. It is literally the simplest thing in the world to do.

I'm willing to actually do the seeding myself too, if you want. I'm not trying to make your tournament worse - in fact, I'm trying to make it far more exciting. Random seeding is not exciting in the least and actually allows you to seed people however you want and call it "random." What happens when the top people have extremely hard matchups throughout and someone like yourself has it easy all the way up to the finals? You forget that seeding also stops any posibility of foul play happening from the organiser(s) end.

EDIT: Auto correct sucks.

lessgo

hype

Looking back, it seems I have reason to have my worries.

I'd have to call for someone else seeding the tournament, not PortalLife. If other people care enough, that is.

Edit: His stubbornness over this even when showing clear evidence that seeding should not work the way he's said worries me, and should worry others too.

XD

"Players that are under rank #50,000 are not allowed to sign up."

Welp, time to farm maps I don't like.

Like I said, the bracket generation will be livestreamed. There will be no foul play involved. I have ran two successful tournaments to date, I think I can make a competent one.

No wish to show me the botched brackets then?

Also, if you're so stubborn, I'll go ahead and host my own set of UK tournaments with proper seeding.

I'll just give up on the persuasion side, if people really want to play in such a botched tournament as this, I wont bother fighting for a better one.

You know, the North American osu! tournament uses random brackets, no complains, so why is it when I do it people wanna fucking cry about it all day?

Heres what happens if you use seeding for 64 players

Top players vs bads
Decent players vs bads

This means that the top players get easy wins inn the final rounds of the tournaments.

Calling this tournament 'botched' is really screwed up.

Seriously, you don't have to sign up, but I'll still make this a successful tournament like I have twice before

Seriously just drop this argument.


I have explained.

WE ARE DOING RANDOM FOR OUKT3, End off.

If this fails or is crap (Which it might be or not be) We will do something else for OUKT4, IE PP Seeding.


We did this in OUKT1 (pp seeding) and got complaints

So we did it in OUKT2 (random seeding) and hey presto, complaints still

I watched portal randomize everyone and sort it out for OUKT2. There was no fixing, so Raiku is wrong.

I UNDERSTAND full well that PP ranking seeding is the normal way of doing it. But we had way to many complaints of under-skilled players against skilled players. So in theory the only fair way of doing this is to randomize the whole thing. But apparently thats wrong.

Once again, to eliminate people saying, fixed!. We are streaming us picking people out randomly.

Thanks and stop complaining. The tournament is for fun, stop fucking tryharding

PortalLife wrote:

You know, the North American osu! tournament uses random brackets, no complains, so why is it when I do it people wanna fucking cry about it all day?

Heres what happens if you use seeding for 64 players

Top players vs bads
Decent players vs bads

This means that the top players get easy wins inn the final rounds of the tournaments.

Calling this tournament 'botched' is really screwed up.

Seriously, you don't have to sign up, but I'll still make this a successful tournament like I have twice before

Did you read the Wiki page? Seeding means that it wont be top players vs worse players in the final round of the tournament. If you don't have the capacity to understand this then that's fine, I'll leave you to it. And heck, it should be fun regardless but I was trying to improve your tournament for your players, who I actually feel sorry have to put up with a tournament organiser like yourself.

Just to clarify, you don't have to worry about my tournament, I'll be hosting it sometime after yours, just in case people want a proper tournament, not one that's heavily reliant on RNG to make the tournament exciting.

Hope your lack of knowledge running proper tournaments pulls you through.

Its almost like you didn't read the posts and are just trying to get under my skin.

Seriously, stop it.

Mahiro Yasaka wrote:

Seriously just drop this argument.


I have explained.

WE ARE DOING RANDOM FOR OUKT3, End off.

If this fails or is crap (Which it might be or not be) We will do something else for OUKT4, IE PP Seeding.


We did this in OUKT1 (pp seeding) and got complaints

So we did it in OUKT2 (random seeding) and hey presto, complaints still

I watched portal randomize everyone and sort it out for OUKT2. There was no fixing, so Raiku is wrong.

I UNDERSTAND full well that PP ranking seeding is the normal way of doing it. But we had way to many complaints of under-skilled players against skilled players. So in theory the only fair way of doing this is to randomize the whole thing. But apparently thats wrong.

Once again, to eliminate people saying, fixed!. We are streaming us picking people out randomly.

Thanks and stop complaining. The tournament is for fun, stop fucking tryharding

I was merely giving feedback on the setup. The frustration stems from PortalLife's lack of understanding. I tried explaining, he still does not understand. Not much else to it really.

sure its complaining but its pointing out flaws to make it a better event, not just empty baseless complaints to annoy you

Le hypeuu

i wont fail every map to navi this time :^3

I tried to explain why seeding was ineffective based off the previous tournament, Shimatora took NO notice to that and then tried to set me up as a "incompetent" and a person not to be trusted. Thats where I draw the line. Just drop this topic already.

Mahiro Yasaka wrote:

Seriously just drop this argument.


I have explained.

WE ARE DOING RANDOM FOR OUKT3, End off.

If this fails or is crap (Which it might be or not be) We will do something else for OUKT4, IE PP Seeding.


We did this in OUKT1 (pp seeding) and got complaints

So we did it in OUKT2 (random seeding) and hey presto, complaints still

I watched portal randomize everyone and sort it out for OUKT2. There was no fixing, so Raiku is wrong.

I UNDERSTAND full well that PP ranking seeding is the normal way of doing it. But we had way to many complaints of under-skilled players against skilled players. So in theory the only fair way of doing this is to randomize the whole thing. But apparently thats wrong.

Once again, to eliminate people saying, fixed!. We are streaming us picking people out randomly.

Thanks and stop complaining. The tournament is for fun, stop fucking tryharding

If you do it random its just going to be bad and pointless a little like last time.

Shimatora wrote:

Mahiro Yasaka wrote:

Seriously just drop this argument.


I have explained.

WE ARE DOING RANDOM FOR OUKT3, End off.

If this fails or is crap (Which it might be or not be) We will do something else for OUKT4, IE PP Seeding.


We did this in OUKT1 (pp seeding) and got complaints

So we did it in OUKT2 (random seeding) and hey presto, complaints still

I watched portal randomize everyone and sort it out for OUKT2. There was no fixing, so Raiku is wrong.

I UNDERSTAND full well that PP ranking seeding is the normal way of doing it. But we had way to many complaints of under-skilled players against skilled players. So in theory the only fair way of doing this is to randomize the whole thing. But apparently thats wrong.

Once again, to eliminate people saying, fixed!. We are streaming us picking people out randomly.

Thanks and stop complaining. The tournament is for fun, stop fucking tryharding

I was merely giving feedback on the setup. The frustration stems from PortalLife's lack of understanding. I tried explaining, he still does not understand. Not much else to it really.

We understand, but us doing this seeding, is us listening to feedback.

As I've said. If this fails, we can always change it next time. But it worked ok last time.

ibecolours wrote:

Mahiro Yasaka wrote:

Seriously just drop this argument.


I have explained.

WE ARE DOING RANDOM FOR OUKT3, End off.

If this fails or is crap (Which it might be or not be) We will do something else for OUKT4, IE PP Seeding.


We did this in OUKT1 (pp seeding) and got complaints

So we did it in OUKT2 (random seeding) and hey presto, complaints still

I watched portal randomize everyone and sort it out for OUKT2. There was no fixing, so Raiku is wrong.

I UNDERSTAND full well that PP ranking seeding is the normal way of doing it. But we had way to many complaints of under-skilled players against skilled players. So in theory the only fair way of doing this is to randomize the whole thing. But apparently thats wrong.

Once again, to eliminate people saying, fixed!. We are streaming us picking people out randomly.

Thanks and stop complaining. The tournament is for fun, stop fucking tryharding

If you do it random its just going to be bad and pointless a little like last time.

Your the second person to say it was bad to me.

Still sticking to my guns here.

No worries. I just hope PortalLife can understand why I don't trust his "evidence" for bad seeding especially when it literally can't be how he said it is. As I've said before, seeding just doesn't work that way. Best of luck with your tournament regardless, Mahiro Yasaka. \o

yo shibutora just let the organisers choose their own methods and stop complaining / giving negative feedback

if you dont like it then dont play, pretty simple. If the majority of people were complaining then yeah sure maybe it would be taken into consideration but if the majority is OK with either method then just let the organisers decide.

Unless you want to run a rival tournament and somehow get sponsership from osu! as well

PortalLife wrote:

Seriously, you don't have to sign up, but I'll still make this a successful tournament like I have twice before

PortalLife wrote:

successful tournament

PortalLife wrote:

successful

Snookie wrote:

yo shibutora just let the organisers choose their own methods and stop complaining / giving negative feedback

if you dont like it then dont play, pretty simple. If the majority of people were complaining then yeah sure maybe it would be taken into consideration but if the majority is OK with either method then just let the organisers decide.

Unless you want to run a rival tournament and somehow get sponsership from osu! as well

if people don't give feedback things do not improve if the seeding stays the same I won't participate not that anyone cares and I don't expect you too but just saying. Shima makes a good point and her way of seeding makes actual sense

I think Shimatora's arguments should be taken into account here, she has previous experience with organising tournaments, far more than I believe the OUKT staff.

I also feel that referring to people as 'bads' isn't helping you here either and telling her to 'stop tryharding' is also going to show that this isn't being taken very seriously.

I also think that the rate that the tournaments are being put out is pretty high which for myself is off-putting but that's a whole different argument and really it's not for me to comment on as I'm not organising it, I just don't feel like participating every month or two.


Shimatora is trying to improve the quality of this tournament, she wasn't trying to have a go at you for what you are doing, don't get mad over it

Yeah well this is the last tournament until winter, because OWC will be Autumn time so, who's to complain.

Also, heres my compromise. Once signups have ended, i'll run a seeding method and see how the brackets look. If they are good, we can keep them. If not, I will randomize them.

Fair game?

The NA tournament is overruled because the OWC uses pp seeding. The OWC is far more important and if we're going on an example basis, wins. Let's be fair, the least competent players are the least competent players and SHOULD be knocked out first, that's what seeding does and if you disagree with it then you don't believe in this fact.

Also here is the 1st OUKT seeding. http://challonge.com/UKosu
OUKT 2 seeding: http://challonge.com/osuukST

ALSO I don't see a SINLGE complaint in the first OUKT thread: t/165077

Even though we've reached a compromise I'm going to keep on slamming nails into this coffin just to remind the staff that they have made the correct choice. In the first tournament, bar the first set of matches ALL of them seemed like interesting matches and none of them were really free wins. In the second tournament we can see that doomsday had clear passage up to the semifinals. From this we can see that obvious outcome matches were FAR more prevalent in the 2nd tournament. To finish, we're completely relying on chance with random seeds, while it could be great; the top 8 players could all have played each other by round 2 which means the winner is most probably already decided by round 2. Not worth the risk.

PortalLife wrote:

Yeah well this is the last tournament until winter, because OWC will be Autumn time so, who's to complain.

Also, heres my compromise. Once signups have ended, i'll run a seeding method and see how the brackets look. If they are good, we can keep them. If not, I will randomize them.

Fair game?

Fair game.

jesus1412 wrote:

The NA tournament is overruled because the OWC uses pp seeding. The OWC is far more important and if we're going on an example basis, wins. Let's be fair, the least competent players are the least competent players and SHOULD be knocked out first, that's what seeding does and if you disagree with it then you don't believe in this fact.

Also here is the 1st OUKT seeding. http://challonge.com/UKosu

ALSO I don't see a SINLGE complaint in the first OUKT thread: t/165077

Fair game.

I think Jesse hit the nail on the head with a huge arse hammer

PortalLife wrote:

Yeah well this is the last tournament until winter, because OWC will be Autumn time so, who's to complain.

Also, heres my compromise. Once signups have ended, i'll run a seeding method and see how the brackets look. If they are good, we can keep them. If not, I will randomize them.

Fair game?

yeah but then you should not be a competitor as you could be biased...
I have the best compromise Lets use shimatoras seeding idea the one that works and makes sense

This has been a rule since OUKT1.

I fail to see how staff playing the tournament can affect it.

I am currently seeking out more referees.

I wanna be placed vs. Jesus, need revenge.

I still fail to see how it's fair that you, PortalLife as a competitor can choose the maps in the map pool. Who's to say you wont just choose maps that you personally have experience on, not that I'm saying you will, but it's still something to take into account as a possible risk of unfair play.

Because I'm not biased and theres two other map selectors. I just act as a moderator over the map selection process, a place where I think OWC lacks from what i've seen.

PortalLife wrote:

This has been a rule since OUKT1.

I fail to see how staff playing the tournament can affect it.

I am currently seeking out more referees.

You made that rule....
so saying that is the rule is kind of pointless, because you made it

PortalLife wrote:

Because I'm not biased and theres two other map selectors. I just act as a moderator over the map selection process, a place where I think OWC lacks from what i've seen.

Which can be confirmed by the other selectors. This isn't a problem guys don't worry.

PortalLife wrote:

This has been a rule since OUKT1.

I fail to see how staff playing the tournament can affect it.

I am currently seeking out more referees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_QanZkKxvU 7:30

Locked upon staff decision, will be unlocked when tournament starts.

Edit: Unlocked upon request.

Good morning everyone, I've been in discussion with the organisation team and they have agreed to adopt me as Master of Draws. I will be doing the organisation of the draw for this tournament and will stream the draws live so you can see it is fairly done. Obviously there have been some complaints about how the draw was originally going to play out, so I've suggested a system to allow seeding with a bit of randomness as well.

Seeding for this tournament will be as follows. This is a tournament of 64 players, 16 of which will be seeded. The draw is then completed as follows:

1. The 1st seed will be placed at the top of the top half of the draw.
2. The 2nd seed will be placed at the bottom of the bottom half of the draw.
3. The 3rd and 4th seeds will be drawn to either the bottom of the top half or the top of the bottom half.
4. The 5th-8th seeds will be drawn in remaining gaps so they do not run into another seed in the first 3 rounds.
5. The 9th-16th seeds will be drawn in remaining gaps so they do not run into another seed in the first 2 rounds.
6. The remaining 48 competitors will be randomly assigned to the remaining gaps in the draw.

This system will allow the top 16 seeds to not face another seed in the first two rounds, not necessarily giving them the easiest possible path, but means these competitors should supposedly reach the 3rd Round (RO16). It also adds a bit of randomisation to the first few rounds, so some less skilled players may be matched up against players of equal skill, giving them a chance to progress a round or two. Not only this but it gives the chance for some upsets, for example; the 15th seed may be drawn against the 17th seed in the first round, leading to a potential upset. This system gives the 16 seeds the potential to make the 3rd Round, but also leads to some interesting early round matches so it's not all boring!

Draws like this are used in many sports, and I have been a competitor in and organised draws such as this one shown. It works very well and varies the draws so they do not end up the same or extremely similar every single tournament.

I hope you all can accept this as a fair compromise. The organisation crew look forward to running the tournament and we hope you enjoy taking part!

~Mollerz

Be an interesting watch, are tournaments like this usually streamed? I never really notice my self, it's just taiko and capture the beat all year