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"Do not overuse kiai time" to guidelines

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Topic Starter
chaotic_iak
I'm not sure whether this is the correct place or not. Move this as you (moderator/admin/etc) see fit.

I see that the rule "Do not overuse kiai time" is often broken. An example is this, which is very recently ranked, while I'm sure that the aforementioned rule has been in place since at least April-June (when I started mapping seriously and decided to read the rules+guidelines thoroughly). Some people indeed like using kiai fountains a lot, and it sometimes do fit the music somehow.

What I'm proposing is to degrade the rule to be a guideline, so people are merely encouraged to follow instead of required to follow it. Or otherwise reinforce the rules more often, but this seems rather difficult (proven by above?). What do you think?

Thank you for your attention!
Drafura
Even if the fountain fits with the song the effect could be really annoying for the player (for example : using it every 2 stanzas would certainly fit in most songs but this seems to be too annoying while playing). Imho it's very hard to determine what is a kiai abuse and what isn't.

"the general guideline is one toggle per minute of playtime" : I think this have to be polished, if the rule is so much broken.
Ekaru
"Do not overuse kiai time" is a rule while "one toggle per minute" is a guideline.

This is a rule that you cannot place a concrete limit on, but it's a necessary one. Its main purpose is to make it so that *ATs have a much easier time saying, "Hey, 50 kiai fountains in the same chorus is stupid and unrankable. Please get rid of it." And, thanks to the rule, that's that, even with no concrete limit because common sense etc.

Without the rule it'd just be "Hey, 50 kiai fountains in the same chorus is stupid. I highly suggest you reduce the amount of kiai fountains." The following conversation would look something like this:

Mapper: There's no rule against it SO IT IS TECHNICALLY RANKABLE
*AT: ...It's still stupid and you really should get rid of it.
Mapper: NO RULE. NOT CHANGING IT. YOU JUST CAN'T APPRECIATE THE ARTISTIC BEAUTY.
*AT: ...1) It makes the game a bitch to play. 2) No *AT is going to bubble this.
Mapper: ARE YOU SAYING I'M AN IDIOT?
*AT: ...#%$^ this shit.
Of course, due to there being no concrete limit cases that fall in "gray areas" sometimes get ranked. Not that big of a deal since the rule is mainly to prevent the stupid, laggy, more extreme cases.
Sakura
That looks like 95% of the conversations between mappers and staff members.
TheVileOne
Ekaru speaks truth. Guidelines aren't really enforcable unless they are treated like rules. It would be pointless to degrade it's effectiveness by making it harder to enforce.
Topic Starter
chaotic_iak

Ekaru wrote:

"Do not overuse kiai time" is a rule while "one toggle per minute" is a guideline.
Ah I see. If so I prefer a slightly different wording for this:

Wiki wrote:

Kiai is meant to accent chorus sections, so don't use it just for fountains unless you're doing this extremely rarely.
Maybe remove "extremely"? The level of restriction seems too high with "extremely" which can make some people think that kiai fountains used like in my prior example is unrankable (I remember modded about that in some other maps once or twice).
Ekaru

Sakura wrote:

That looks like 95% of the conversations between mappers and staff members.
QFT.

And sure, remove the word "extremely." It's a redundant word, anyways; "rarely" already means to not use it very often, so there's no need to add "extremely" onto that.
Sakura

Ekaru wrote:

And sure, remove the word "extremely." It's a redundant word, anyways; "rarely" already means to not use it very often, so there's no need to add "extremely" onto that.
Do we all agree on this?
D33d
Yes. It made me wary of reasonable use as well.
TheVileOne
I'm a bit indecisive in this situation. I can see valid arguments from both sides. But as it currently sits, it's hard for anyone that isn't a BAT to actually enforce this. Kiai fountains don't bother me even if they are spammed unless they use a lag inducing fountain. I don't usually bring it up, but I don't think it ever got to the point of being excessive (except Fairy Tale). Excessive fountains is just a ridiculous thought. The person who would violate this rule does not know how to map, so it's not really applicable for the average mapper who would get a map that is ready to be ranked.

Times have changed since the old days where mappers had to follow strict standards for maps. I don't think that the circumstance for kiai is as important to today's standards. From my knowledge the only reason this rule exists was to prevent toggling kiai fountains when kiai fountains were only meant to indicate the start of a kiai time. The guideline appended to the rule that now allows this undermines the internal purpose of the rule. essentially this rule is now purposeless, because no map would benefit from the amount of kiai spam required to violate this rule. The standard of what is excessive has changed from past definitions.

What we need is a redefinition of this rule that matches today's standards. We need to include specific details on what is not allowed. The current guideline is that kiai shouldn't be toggled more than once a minute or in other words you can use a fountain once every 30 seconds. The rule doesn't require the kiai to be used for any specific duration. AiMod will give a warning when more than 1/4th of the map is kiai, but there is no guideline about keeping kiai under this amount. AiMod makes it sound like it's a guideline to not overuse kiai. I'm pretty sure toggling kiai more than once a minute is an error according to AiMod.

If we want this to be a rule that prevents kiai fountains, then state "Kiai fountains must be used to indicate the start or end of a kiai section". That would be enforceable by any modder. Allowing the usage for rare situations is vague and no normal modder has the authority to decide what is considered a rare situation and they will be ignored by anyone who actually believe they are using kiai correctly. this would be even harder to enforce if it were a guideline, because even MATs get ignored when it comes to guidelines.

I think we should clear up the actual definition of this rule. Abusing kiai fountains is not really considered overusing kiai. A song can spam fountains with the same number of kiai sections as someone who is not overusing kiai, because it is not based on the length of the actual kiai. I think that overusing kiai should refer only to using too much kiai in your map. Using fountains incorrectly/ too close to other fountains is considered abusing kiai, not overusing it. BATs will refer to it as kiai abuse. I refer to it as kiai abuse. It should be Do not abuse kiai usage or the idea in the previous paragraph. Overusing kiai should focus on the actual duration of kiai and be demoted to a guideline.
Sakura
I think it's better to leave as rule something about not using kiai within X Time since the last fountain, and guidelines something about not using kiai for too long.
Kodora
Pretty support this.
Loctav
Please finalize this
TheVileOne
Should fountain spam be allowed? It's easy to know when someone is indeed spamming fountain and when he is not. You could modify the rule to just focus on the fountain spam. The amount of kiai in a map varies greatly from map to map. In some cases 50% of the map could be kiai. I think kiai usage falls under common sense and common sense can be enforced by modders and BATs without the need of a hard rule or guideline.

If the BATs feel rewriting it is unnecessary. It's fine being a guideline IMO.
Ephemeral
Rule will be finalized as is within 3 days (20th july 2013). Final opinions come forward now or forever hold thy peace.
Mithos
Rule: Don't abuse fountains
Guideline: Kiai time activation once per minute.

Sometimes a chorus plays twice and there are many benefits to doubling up the kiai time as opposed to leaving it out one time and playing it the other. Fountain spam is still CPU intensive on an otherwise low-spec game, annoying for all players of all game modes, and does not fill a role that cannot be filled via creative storyboarding/hitsounds/slider velocity.
Kodora

Mithost wrote:

annoying for all players of all game modes, and does not fill a role that cannot be filled via creative storyboarding/hitsounds/slider velocity.
Annoying? Not for me at least. I can give a lot of examples where fountain attack works as well - https://osu.ppy.sh/s/31367 (Another), https://osu.ppy.sh/s/7932 (jiongrz). This is always how mappers feel the song, and a lot of mappers love kiai time.

btw it should be finalized already.
Loctav
Do not overuse kiai time. The general rule of thumb is one toggle per minute of playtime. Kiai is meant to accent chorus sections, so don't use it just for fountains unless you're doing this rarely. You can toggle kiai off and back on halfway through the chorus if it fits, but using it constantly every few beats/measures is just ridiculous and can distract players.
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