Well, I'm not good explaining myself, so I'll be direct.

We know about that rule disallowing us from put Vocaloid names in Artist, but~
sasakure.UK feat. Hatsune Miku - *Hello,Planet.
That map was recently ranked and nobody argued against that, the reason is that in the video was stated Hatsune Miku included as an artist.
I have nothing against the map and I won't mess farther than this.

But as a community that has enforced and putting the rules at the top, these kind of things doesn't make sense at all, so this rule about Vocaloid must change to admit these special cases and avoid some kind of big problems in the future.

I highly suggest rewriting the rule about Vocaloid songs in two ways:
Nothing more to explain here, is easy to understand.


All Vocaloid fans and listeners should know that songs like Melt and Black Rock Shooter state "supercell (or ryo) feat. Hatsune Miku" as Artist, so we should respect that kind of songs. Some well-known games, as Taiko no Tatsujin, states in these kind of songs "YM feat. GUMI" (for Juumensou in the arcade version), or in some cases just "feat. Hatsune Miku" (for Melt in the 3rd Nintendo DS game), when the music used in this games is not the original one of the composer.


Let the discussion begin~

I think the discussion should be about how this map got approved even though it only had around 4 minutes of drain time. The rules clearly state:

Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 6 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 6 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.

How the BATs let this one rule slip past them is past me. I'm sure the rule wasn't just "recently" made after this map was approved. This rule has been standing for awhile if I'm correct.

Because that map was submitted before the rule was enforced I guess?

I believe the proper way of handling this is to use the name the artist/composed intended to be as the artist of the song. The composer is using a virtual alias and I'm not really sure you can copyright a song using a vocaloid engine, since the engine itself is copyrighted. So even if one particular person/group composed it, they most likely do not have copyright of it and so anyone could just take the same material and call it theirs.

Your suggested alternative makes a degree of sense as well. Vocaloid songs should be treated like cover songs except that the cover artist should be the vocaloid program as it's a virtual artist. It really depends on if the composer intended the vocaloid character to receive credit or himself. Again it is unlikely that the composer copyrighted the music to begin with, so even if they did compose it, I could say I did it.

Also it is proper for vocaloid songs to list the vocaloid name as the vocals. When referring to a vocaloid song,the current accepted standard has the vocaloid name followed by song title.

If this is not incorrect, link a place on the internet where this is different.

You don't put Kajiura Yuki ft. Her Sythesizer as artist too.
And since Hatsune Miku/ VOCALOID is nothing more than an vocal sythesizer, there is no point in putting that into the artists.

Also due to copyright issues, it's prohibited to put Hatsune Miku as artist if she isn't officially labeled by YAMAHA as one.

Loctav wrote:

You don't put Kajiura Yuki ft. Her Synthesizer as artist too.
And since Hatsune Miku/ VOCALOID is nothing more than an vocal synthesizer, there is no point in putting that into the artists.

Also due to copyright issues, it's prohibited to put Hatsune Miku as artist if she isn't officially labelled by YAMAHA as one.

Well, osu has tons of copyrighted music and iirc there's the DMCA which you should look into. The only point is that it's a program which most people would say should be artist because you have people like Rihanna or w/e who are merely voices (at least in some cases). Just seems like the BATs/whoever chose a view which is kind of a grey area.

I am only quoting what the general consensus among the staff is at this case.
If single BATs still don't follow it recently, feel free to point it up and we'll fix artist/source

Loctav wrote:

Also due to copyright issues, it's prohibited to put Hatsune Miku as artist if she isn't officially labeled by YAMAHA as one.

It may be not so prohibited as I stated two examples (which I doubt you read) and I can't see or don't know about legal actions against Namco (for TnT games) or Ordet/Sanzigen studios (stating supercell feat. Hatsune Miku as Artist in the Black Rock Shooter opening, also having some relation with Sony Music), and we have the video of the named map in the OP, that's why I put the first suggestion.

I think nobody is harmed, and if it's so prohibited, peppy should already had had some problems due to this (who knows), because Vocaloid songs are not something new here.

Though I'd like to see some people who has iOS devices give their opinion or how Vocaloid songs are used in Project Diva and Miku Flick.

TheVileOne wrote:

Also it is proper for vocaloid songs to list the vocaloid name as the vocals. When referring to a vocaloid song,the current accepted standard has the vocaloid name followed by song title.

If this is not incorrect, link a place on the internet where this is different.

Just because we have no problems so far (probably because this game is non-commercial f2p), we don't need to keep provoking to get problems.

As far as I know, there are no concerts of "Yasuo-P" "wowaka" "randomnameP" but yes of "Hatsune Miku", that and many games from Sega using the name (giving the correspondent credits to music composer, lyrics and images/PV), this may not be a vaild argument, but take that in mind~

And I knew you would refuse completely the first option, that's why I suggested the second~
Thus you keep the actual way of handling Vocaloid songs and respecting the songs that are somehow officialy sung by Vocaloid (as in my examples).

I know this is not so related but, how about the covers (including Chorus) of Vocaloid songs made by real people using the original music by the composers?, should we use the names of the singers as Artist and throw away the composer to tags just because the singers are real? or should we keep using the composer as Artist and throw away the singers in tags though being they real people? Doesn't make sense at all, can you see?

I'd want further discussion and more colorful opinion diversity but it seems that nobody cares :u

Actually the SEGA Project Diva games credit the composer tho i don't see the Vocaloid Name anywhere in the song, they always look like this (sorry for bad quality image, blame my capture card hating my PSP.)

Sakura wrote:

Actually the SEGA Project Diva games credit the composer tho i don't see the Vocaloid Name anywhere in the song

it's called Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA (初音ミク -Project DIVA-)
you have to be blind to not realize it's a game about vocaloids.



Stuff just looks silly:
James Horner - My Heart Will Go on
and put Celine Dion into tags since James was the one who composed the song and Celine was just chosen to sing in it.

Well yes, but still songs dont show which vocaloid sing them

If which vocaloid sings the song is obvious or implied then it is not necessary. Also Project DIVA is special since it is a studio that professionally creates vocaloid songs. They are likely to copyright their songs more than anyone else since they also create custom content for the song and their material is likely to be unique material.

Otherwise it should be seen as either a vocaloid remix of the song or a cover of the original song. If it is a cover it should be given to the vocaloid that was singing, because vocaloids are part of Japanese subculture and so well known that the songs are organized by which vocaloid is singing. You cannot say that about any other voice synthesizer program or other representations of virtual characters singing. These personas were made for the very reason to be virtual pop stars.

It would just make sense for it to be [Composer] feat. [Vocaloid Artist]. That is what the song is doing. It is this work, featuring a vocaloid pop star. Whoever is making a guest appearance in the song should be mentioned in the artist box. If a real artist, suddenly used a different singer for one of their songs that wasn't affiliated with them, you would have to use feat. [that singer] or people will assume that singer is part of the band/artist. The exception for this is orchestral/music focused compositions.

In my opinion even in-character songs should feature the guest singer even if the singer is not well known. If I take MLP as an example. Daniel Ingram is credited for the whole thing, but Daniel Ingram is not a band. So why aren't the people actually singing in the song credited? It probably would get really long to feature everyone in that case, but technically I think it should be Daniel Ingram feat. [list of main singers]. Even if the singer is obscure, we're not giving proper credit to contributors. Hatsune Miku is just a virtual contributor and so should be credited in my opinion.

By this logic we need to put Kajiura Yuki ft. Itou Eri for titles like "Mezame", too, since Kajiura only composed and arranged it, but Itou Eri sung it.

I still think that Hatsune Miku/Kagamine Rin/whoever are just instruments. I see your logics, but te Artists are the "interprets", so the person who interpreted the song. From what I know Hatsune Miku can't interpret, that's the artists/composers who do that for her.

by that logic we'd actually have to put the names of the actual people that made the vocaloid voice rather than Hatsune Miku, etc

Sakura wrote:

by that logic we'd actually have to put the names of the actual people that made the vocaloid voice rather than Hatsune Miku, etc

Nope. Whoever is listed under vocals is credited for singing. This is usually the vocaloid name.

The interpret is not always the singer. Keep that in mind. And peppy said to never put Hatsune Miku/Vocaloid anywhere but in the tags. So we should stick to this.

Everything else you stated needs a valid source.

Loctav wrote:

The interpret is not always the singer. Keep that in mind. And peppy said to never put Hatsune Miku/Vocaloid anywhere but in the tags. So we should stick to this.

I guess I should agree with that since I realized about composers and their work (Though I may still complain on sorting xD). But I'm sure some (including me) place "Vocaloid" on the Source on the very least. Is this okay?

Edit: But all in all, I choose to support DareDekanne's suggestion. It's the best way since it shows both things you need to know in one place.
@Sakura: Alrighty then. I'll put that back on Tags and follow the current rules for now.

Edit 2: Adding by. Project Diva uses format of song name and Vocaloid singer. The composer, is always shown in the animated movie of the song instead, which is also what most usual PVs have as well. IMO, Some don't have that much or care of the knowledge of what's behind Vocaloid songs, right? They'll find out if they like the song. Such is the nature of fans.

Source is for when the song comes from a videogame, series, movie. So Vocaloid wouldn't be an appropriate source.

Edit: Tho i guess project diva is fine for project diva songs.

Sakura wrote:

Source is for when the song comes from a videogame, series, movie. So Vocaloid wouldn't be an appropriate source.

Edit: Tho i guess project diva is fine for project diva songs.

Totally agreeing. Project Diva is an appropriate source, if the song appears in this game series.

A lot of songs appearing in Project Diva weren't originally from Project Diva though.
It's like Guitar Hero having a song that was deemed popular enough, or Elite Beat Agents having songs like September.

Still it's fine if Project Diva is what made them famous iirc.

Sakura wrote:

Still it's fine if Project Diva is what made them famous iirc.

I thought it was the other way, famous songs being in the game plus random unknown songs that get famous after that~

I've done a further researching and~

1. Didn't find that using Vocaloid names in artist/metadata is prohibited in any place.
2. Most of Vocaloid characters are licensed under Creative Commons (CC BY-NP), so~ Vocaloid characters are permitted to use while it's for non-profit purpose.
3. YAMAHA only owns the Vocaloid Software, not the characters. Only doing synthesized singing harmful for third parties and lyrics against public policy of law are prohibited.
4. Additional licensing is only needed when using Vocaloid software/characters for profit purposes.

If I'm wrong I want proofs~ (btw all I found was in official websites)
I was about to giving up for the first option but well~ I found that :v~

And in the game side, some people aren't able to know which of recent ranked beatmaps are from Vocaloid songs or which Vocaloid is singing, until they listen them or look at the thumbnail, I find that being a bit annoying if one want to increase their beatmaps from Vocaloid songs. So both my suggestions (more the first) are helpful, more for new players who doesn't know the real side of Vocaloid songs, allowing them to enjoy the so called songs, isn't that the purpose of this game (and mapping)?

Also quoting (with some modifications but conserving the statement) this because I can~

DakeDekaane wrote:

How about the covers (including Chorus) of Vocaloid songs made by real people using the original music by the composers?, should we use the names of the singers as Artist and throw away the composer to tags just because the singers are real? or should we keep using the composer as Artist and throw away the singers in tags even they are real people? Doesn't make with actual rules, does it?

You can still put Vocaloid and the Name of such into the tags. That makes it still browsable ingame/on website, if you input Hatsune Miku as search keyword.

Hatsune Miku is a trademark - putting her as artist if she isn't the artist is wrong. simply.

Why she shouldn't be the artist if she is the one performing the song along with the composer? voice is considered an instrument btw

Maybe we should put ft. Saki Fujita then.

She isn't singing with her real voice, so we can't do that, but yes with Hatsune Miku even being an synthesized one. Maybe put Saki in tags?

And remember I'm doing this for make things a bit more flexible and easy to handle for players, some composers put the Vocaloid name as artist, as we can see in the respective PV or album.

Hatsune Miku doesn't exist, Saki does, Hatsune Miku is a program/instrument that plays with the properties of the voice recorded by Saki to create a song. If you really want to put the actual singer, then the actual singer is Saki not Hatsune Miku.

Hatsune Miku does exist. Not in real life but it surely does. And you said it, as a program.

Composers don't bring Saki to their work place, then she is not the actual singer. They use the software and Saki's synthesized voice, which is under the name of Hatsune Miku.

This applies for all Vocaloids.

You personalize Hatsune Miku too much imo.
Hatsune Miku is an instrument. A trademarked instrument. You don't put ft. Piano or ft. Trumpet into artists sections, too.
Hatsune Miku is simply a software of the VOCALOID series, which has been personalized with a anime character for marketing purposes.
That doesn't make her less an instrumental voice synthesizer tool - no more and no less.

DareDekaane wrote:

Didn't find that using Vocaloid names in artist/metadata is prohibited in any place.

Most of Vocaloid characters are licensed under Creative Commons (CC BY-NP), so~ Vocaloid characters are permitted to use while it's for non-profit purpose.

Exactly why I wish to keep vocaloid singer on the artist. Osu! is not a commercial game so it's totally fine! Duh :3

My saying is that people called Hatsune Miku (And every vocaloid) as a singer. The composer is like the master behind it, always mentioned in many PVs or tags. The Vocaloid is an instrument, but people around the world just call him/her a "person" (Or say, Artist) instead as if it is a real singer, since it's more comfortable to their eyes. So my wish is that the Vocaloid singer on the artist, composer on the tags. I'm sure by my vision, that the composer's fine if not placed on the artist, because they're already mentioned elsewhere. When the person likes that song, he/she will eventually find the composer and his/her songs. It is already the nature of the fans here from the beginning!

In short, facts are not always the fact, it's what people think of them, and it goes to most of us as well, and we want to keep that way of thinking, even if it is against the fact.

I'm done here. DareDekaane explained the rest and I accept that as well.

Not every dream can be fulfilled. Even tho this game is about having fun, this thread derails to a layer that loses any objectivity.
No change.

peppy wrote:

State why you do not agree with it. Make sure you have a better reason than "I don't like it" or "that's not how I roll".

Please re-read your post and tell me where in your post you arent talking about removing the rule just because "people don't like it" or "i don't like it"

Edit: or nvm, Loctav already finished the job