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Necessary 2-Taiko diffs rule discussion

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Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Makar wrote:

In a NH spread: If the Standard Normal plays good on taiko, why require a kantan to go with the muzukashii?
You mean a Fuutsu right? (And yes i literally meant a Taiko Normal)

Taiko suffers from the same diff spread rule as osu! standard when there's no osu! Easy and there are Taiko diffs on the mapset, hence you need a Taiko Easy/Normal to go with it.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
Makar I understand what you are saying but Muzukashii is considered "Hard" in taiko diff ratings. If Muzukashii-only was allowed, I could see people simply changing their Oni to a Muzukashi to get it ranked. The line between the two difficulties is very vague, so it would be exploitable.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
Bumping this topic roughly three months after the rule has been put into effect as I made some research. I looked at every ranked map from exactly 3 months ago, the 11th of August, to today. There were 315 ranked maps in that time period. After ignoring Taiko maps that weren't concerned by the rule (submitted before said rule) and Taiko-only maps, which I am more than happy with, here are all the maps I found. The sheer majority of it was 2-taiko diffs, but two maps stand out.
list
ALTIMA - Burst The Gravity (TV Size) by Kuria
supercell - Kokuhaku (TV Size) by Netsukawa
Daniele Meo - Adesso Balla (Butterfly Remix) by Shiro
Sagara Kokoro - Hoshizora no Ima by kanpakyin
Kitamura Eri - Happy Girl (TV Size) by Melophobia
S-C-U - milky ice bear by MMzz
LiSA - crossing field (TV Size) by No_Gu
Team Nekokan feat. Amaoto Junca - Kokoro no Kara (Tv Size) by 0OoMickeyoO0
Rie Kugimiya, Eri Kitamura & Yui Horie - Orange (Tv Size) by 12BARRY21
SHK - Salut D'amour by Philippines
Faylan - Dead END by rui
a-ha - Dialogue
Hideuki Fukasawa - Theme of Thor by mancusojuanmattos
Shimotsuki Haruka - COSMOLAGOON (Short Ver.) by Darksonic
GOATBED - AI CATCH (Short Ver.) by Konei
mikitoP - 1, 2 Fan Club by Chewin
Xi - Majotachi no Butoukai ~ Magus by Kite
fripSide - LEVEL5 -judgelight- (TV Size) by Melophobia [Has 3 Taiko diffs]
capitaro - Utatabigarasu by NatsumeRin
UNLIMITS - Haruka Kanata (TV Size) by Sonico Marakon
Donkeyboy - City Boy by MathiasXII
Doppelman - Error!! by D33d
goreshit - o'er the flood by grumd
Orihime Yozora - brave genesis (Short Ver.) by NewRulerNA
Duca - Snow wish (Short Ver.) by those
Marie - Rocket Love Panic! by Fionana
SniperSnake19 - Brunch (Sequel to BreakFast) by grumd
Aoi Eir - INNOCENCE (TV Size) by CXu
Tsunku & Masami Yone - Game Select (That's Paradise Instrumental) by Sushi [Has 4 Taiko diffs]
Skrillex - Kyoto (feat. Sirah) by Frozen Child
Rungran - d.m.c (Band Ver.) by Sieg
angela - KINGS (TV Size) by tutuhaha
yozuca* - Platinum 17 (TV Size) by Fumika
fripSide - only my railgun (TV Size) by Chewin
Rita - Little Busters! -TV animation ver.- by Nyquill
Azis - Sen Trope by Stefan
That is 36 maps with several Taiko maps on them. Now, imagine maps with only one Taiko didn't exist (they aren't supposed to with this new rule). That is 36 taiko maps, in 3 months. It's slightly more than one taiko diff for nine maps. That, is very low. Back before the rule, it was more around 1 Taiko diff in every 3 maps, hell, let's say 4 at worst. Notice also that for except but two of these maps there are two Taiko diffs, so if there's a real intention to have better taiko spreads, I don't think people got the message! They are catering to the bare minimum rankable, which really does not help spread by a lot, although they have to be given props for at least including taiko diffs in their mapsets. And this is not going to improve. I see people, new mappers, experienced mappers, XATs, complaining every day about a distinct lack of mods regarding Taiko difficulties. I commend the people that do mod these maps, but this is not going well. I have been talking with Sakura and Loctav in #modhelp some time ago about that topic, but the discussion didn't really go anywhere. My ideas met a wall of "this won't work" remarks, for the most part unexplained.

Discuss.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Since standard maps can convert to Taiko, and play at least as well as a poorly made yet rankable Taiko difficulty, I don't see any practical need for 2+ Taiko difficulties or otherwise 0. It's just going to discourage mappers from dabbling in Taiko mapping. Standard mappers may not be good enough at Taiko to map the higher difficulties, so they're left with no option.

Standard is different since mode-specific maps can't convert back to standards.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I'm not too sure about this, but I think that it'd be good if every taiko feature would consist of at least a muzukashii and an oni. Personally, I still can't play onis of any kind and muzukashii lets me have a fun taiko experience. I'd much prefer to see a bespoke taiko difficulty of a lower level than see people relying blindly on style conversion. Standard hitsounds don't really create any iconic taiko patterns.

If anything, a standard of at least two difficulties would probably give taiko mapping a better representation in general--instead of standard sets featuring one taiko diff as an extra, they could be regarded as being split into a proper standard set and a proper taiko set. Furthermore, with taiko-only sets, it makes sense to me that there's an actual set instead of one Oni. It'd make taiko more accessible as a standalone mode of gameplay.

I understand why this would bother people, but the only downside that I see is the necessity to spend the extra time to map one or two easier difficulties. In the long run, that shouldn't be too bad.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

~
don't mind my typo.

I agree with D33d but once it is >forced< it is bad
should be encouraged, yes
but.. :>
Kurai
osu! Alumni
7,734 posts
Joined March 2009
Kurai
Color is right, this rule totally discourage people to add taiko diffs to their mapset, I remember some days ago somebody asked me to test a oni he had made for his map, it was far from being bad, but the mapset didn't have another taiko difficulty, and when I told him that his map needed another one, his reaction was something like "well no, I'll just remove my taiko".

This rule was added to make this game mode more popular but it had the opposite effect in my opinion. We shouldn't force people to add easier taiko difficulties, but make them understand that adding some is a very good plus for the mapset.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar
Eh I think a muzukashii should be required with an oni if no easier diff is present unless the song is very low bpm or something and makes the oni really easy.

Due to high SV used on maps, harder diffs in standard are not very friendly when you want something harder than easy but not as hard as oni.

Basically it shouldn't be forced unless the map really needs it for spread... it should just be highly encouraged. Like I mentioned earlier in another thread, there are some maps that have an okay spread with just one taiko diff (see: most dkun maps, low bpm maps, etc).
Last edited by Makar , edited 1 time in total.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
@D33d: That's fine if you care about Taiko, of course. Many mappers get Taiko difficulties by guests and a lot of them don't want to bother since the new rule especially since mods are scarce. If I had to wait for guest difficulties to be modded in my mapsets for mods I don't especially care about, I'd think I'd do the same thing, and that doesn't make me lazy or anything.

You might wanna take a shot at many taiko maps, too; Oni is a wide genre and some Muzukashii maps are much harder than some Onis (MMzz's Taiko on Her Majesty and Loctav's Muzukashii on dstrukt, for instance), and that's the beauty of Taiko: 1* Oni maps exist, as well as 7* Muzukashiis. If you've played Taiko no Tatsujin, you know this, and it's not really obvious otherwise since easier onis and harder muzukashiis aren't well represented on osu! anymore. On that regard, TnT is much like osu!stream: the song has a "general difficulty" and then 4 (sometimes more) specific difficulties. That happens in osu! too, although not as often. Which is a shame, but that's another problem for another day.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
The main reason why the rule came about was due to the lack of taiko-centric easier difficulties. For the most part, they were just the super-hard difficulties that pretty much hamstring new entries to the taiko community since it alienates newcomers. I don't mind the rule, even with the seemingly detrimental effects, since it at least encourages those that are willing to put a little more effort into a set get much better results in terms of a larger playing audience with difficulties actually tailored to the game-play style.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
I say we just Separate Taiko and osu! all together. It SHOULD boost the amount of modding in the taiko community and good osu! sets won't get dragged down because of bad taiko difficulties. If you want to map taiko you might aswell map a whole set because you already have to map 2 difficulties.

I probably said this somewhere in this thread but might aswell say it again.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
While I do agree that 2 diffs shouldn't really be enforced, you cannot blame the rule itself only. Mappers which refuse to map another taiko diff don't really sound like they are putting effort in their maps, and they just want to get their maps ranked ASAP. This kind of behaviour is the real problem here, not the rule itself.

I am pretty sure that people wanting to rank their stuff is the main problem here, not the diff spread of the taiko, because those people who actually care about their work will make them, however there is only a handful of people who are willing to do that. ._.

Let's be honest, how much time is it necessary to map an average playable lower taiko diff?
How much time does it require to map a lower diff for standard? I'd say about 10 times more. Unless the person is really lazy and just does 1/1 spam with random objects that is.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
^I disagree with this. Many mappers get their taiko difficulties by guests and themselves do not play or care about Taiko. However, back before the rule was instated, some of these mappers would accept taiko guest difficulties because, it was only one difficulty, didn't take much space and was usually not a hindrance towards ranking or anything. This rule changed that. Mappers that don't want to deal with Taiko in general don't want to deal with the fact that they have to get 2 difficulties, have them fit the taiko guidelines, have them modded, etc. If they don't care about the mod, they're not gonna bother, and rightfully so. I wouldn't bother if something like that happened to my maps with a mod I didn't care about like CtB for example. If my mapset is ready and I have to wait because the difficulty I don't care about isn't, I'm just gonna ditch it! That doesn't make me lazy.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

lolcubes wrote:

While I do agree that 2 diffs shouldn't really be enforced, you cannot blame the rule itself only. Mappers which refuse to map another taiko diff don't really sound like they are putting effort in their maps, and they just want to get their maps ranked ASAP. This kind of behaviour is the real problem here, not the rule itself.
THIS.

And with Taiko and osu! separated mappers would actually have to care and put effort into their sets.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I saw that my Map is in the List of the Maps which are ranked after the Rule. Technically, my Map could ALSO go without the 2nd Taiko Diff. In this Case, I was thinking about to remove the Oni Diff, since the Guest Mapper is really inactive and I had no permission/experience to use the Suggestions from my Side for the Diff. I am just telling how it was going with my Map. If the Mapper wants to get his Map ranked asap, then he simply should skip the Taiko Part. It does not shows effort, but oh well.

I agree with that, what lolcubes said and also that, it isn't that hard to map a lower Taiko Diff (mostly Futsuu). At the Time when I mapped the Kantan (perviously a Futsuu) I wasn't even knowing about the Guidelines for Taiko Diffs. And it took me like.. 10-15 Minutes to finish it. And for a 3 1/2 Minute song, it's not really long.

Also, we should not forget what's the main reason of this Rule. As example, ALTIMA - Burst The Gravity (TV Size) by Kuria wouldn't be okay afaik, because it contains two Onis. (But since it's submitted before the rule, it's ok) and also fripSide - LEVEL5 -judgelight- (TV Size) by Melophobia wouldn't be okay. I randomly asked Melo if I could make a Futsuu for it.

I am happy when I see Mapsets like Tsunku & Masami Yone - Game Select (That's Paradise Instrumental) by Sushi where a full Taiko and a full Standard Mapset is made. Of course, it's always possible to make it, just saying that I like it. :)

However, as lolcubes said, the person should be patient enough too, and accept a 2nd Taiko Diff, a lower one, if he wants to keep the Oni Diff for it.

And as last point: This would be totally nonsense if someone says that he is gonna modding the Oni Diff, but not the Muzukashii/Futsuu/Kantan.
So actually, there's nothing really different as before. It also happens often, that the Mapper of the Oni is the same as on the 2nd Taiko Diff and you would have to wait for one person. But this does not really belongs here.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Mr Color wrote:

If my mapset is ready and I have to wait because the difficulty I don't care about isn't, I'm just gonna ditch it! That doesn't make me lazy.
Oh don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you are talking about, however in this particular case the taiko mapper is to blame, because he doesn't want to give you another diff in a reasonable time frame.
Those maps you listed that had 2 or more taiko diffs, just check who the mappers were. Usually it's always the same mappers who do the taiko diffs and they are used to doing all the work. Every experienced taiko mapper will gladly give you 2 diffs if he wants to get his map(s) ranked. Atleast that's kind of an impression I am getting from certain taiko mappers I know.

Just want to mention one more thing. Usually taiko mappers can give you 2 taiko diffs, one lower and one Oni, and that's fine, however there are certain mapsets where mappers just map one diff, and get their mapset crowded with guest diffs. In this case the person mapping the taiko will miss out because he's the biggest contributor. But what can you do, blame the original mapper for getting only guest diffs heh.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

MMzz wrote:

I say we just Separate Taiko and osu! all together. It SHOULD boost the amount of modding in the taiko community and good osu! sets won't get dragged down because of bad taiko difficulties. If you want to map taiko you might aswell map a whole set because you already have to map 2 difficulties.

I probably said this somewhere in this thread but might aswell say it again.
This one won't work because the taiko community is far smaller. Separating them seriously hinder the song diversity of possible taiko maps.

Just want to mention one more thing. Usually taiko mappers can give you 2 taiko diffs, one lower and one Oni, and that's fine, however there are certain mapsets where mappers just map one diff, and get their mapset crowded with guest diffs. In this case the person mapping the taiko will miss out because he's the biggest contributor. But what can you do, blame the original mapper for getting only guest diffs heh.
This is pretty much one of the discourangement for people accepting taiko diffs. However we can hardly say this is the intention of the rules --- making one diffs and asks for GDs is not encouraged but shouldn't be penalized in such a tricky way (and hindering taiko developement just because of the solo diffs issue) as well.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

wmfchris wrote:

making one diffs and asks for GDs is not encouraged but shouldn't be penalized in such a tricky way
I'm not entirely sure how this is any sort of penalization.

Mapping to rank, not necessarily for fun> Cannot rank because of something > Seeming mapped for nothing if no fixes are made, and thus "penalized"
Mapping for fun, not necessarily for rank > Cannot rank because of something > Mapped for fun so it doesn't matter, and thus not "penalized"

Remember, getting a map ranked is a privilege, not a definite end result.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
as you as you get my meaning it would be fine.

penalized, discouraged, etc.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane

lolcubes wrote:

Those maps you listed that had 2 or more taiko diffs, just check who the mappers were. Usually it's always the same mappers who do the taiko diffs and they are used to doing all the work.
Interesting that you mention that because these are the people who usually map multiple taiko maps for their mapsets regardless of the rules. And this is partly why I request this to be a guideline: I don't think it's going to hurt said spreads at all! Taiko mappers who still want a nice tidy mapset with all the diffs or a taiko-specific mapset will be able to map them, and people who only want one difficulty will also be able to do it, but will be encouraged to widen their spread. This is only so that we find a fine line between quantity and quality. The lack of mods is still a problem, though. Mappers who don't particularly care about Taiko won't be scared away by the mods they have to gather and what have you, and mappers who do care will go the full distance and increase their spread, showing what a great spread/map can be (given how high the standard is for charts nowadays, this might give them a boost, don't you think?) and tempting other mappers to join in!

Unfortunately, the first time I voiced this opinion, I got greeted by "in a perfect world" or "that won't happen for real" type of comments. I'd like to try it out nevertheless; I'll be the first one to say that we need easier onis and easier Taiko diffs in general. I just don't want to sacrifice the number of ranked taiko maps to achieve that.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
That's reasonable and I agree. I am not against the current rule, but I am not exactly for it either. It's just that it's hard for me to see why people don't want to adapt. Sadly we cannot really change the situation at hand.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
I do understand them, having mapped many unsubmitted beatmaps, they're all standard insanes and Taiko Onis. That's only because to me other easier difficulties aren't as interesting to map and while people might disagree with me - hello D33d - I think it's because I like to come up with new patterns every time, experiment, try out new stuff, etc. On easier diffs you are limited by the difficulty, and some people just don't want to bother with that even with Taiko. Even though I don't agree, I understand why one would only want to do a Taiko Oni and not bother with a Muzukashii.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
Laziness is no excuse. And as lolcubes said before, you are able to map such diffs in a few minutes with a decent quality(hard to do something wrong) even for alleged hard songs. We are able to map for every song an easy diff, the question is, do mapper stick too much to the beat. This would explain the reaction.

Laziness is no excuse, but forcing people isn't the right way either, especially because this rule has been settled - if I understood it right - without any taiko guys, which is up to day, a miracle to me. But searching for the "how" is here an endless loop and I know Sakuras actions allready too good.

Anyway, I would rather suggest to give mapper more freedom. I'm one of the first guys who stick on mapping more diff's and would rather like to see that, but not everyone is everytime in the mood to map two diffs. I respect that. Also because we are able to have our own taiko-sets nowadays and easy-normal osu diffs are enough for guest mappers.

P.s.: I disagree that it is hard to find people who take two taiko diffs.. Actually it is really easy, but it's the way of asking and connections I guess, huh?
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]

OnosakiHito wrote:

P.s.: I disagree that it is hard to find people who take two taiko diffs.. Actually it is really easy, but it's the way of asking and connections I guess, huh?
agree
omg who maps an Oni can map a Muzu :v
well, at least for 90% of the songs
unless the song is 4min + because it is annoying
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
No one is forcing you to do anything.
If you don't agree with the rules DON'T MAP.
And if you map against the rules, you get nuked.

Also, everyone who has ever made a guest difficulty can be called lazy. (Technically)
"I like this song I want to map it, can I add my own difficulty to your set and you do the rest of the work?"

The way I'm seeing this is people are complaining because something changed, just like the new slider algorithm! (But this has been out for a few months so I don't see why we're bringing this up again) Yes it's a pain in the ass to map another difficulty. Yes it's a pain in the ass to mod another difficulty. But these are the rules and you have to deal with it. I myself wasn't completely for this rule at first (You can see my post about my first impressions of it on the first page lol) but it has it's ups and downs. All in all you're going to have to live with it.

Don't like it?
Don't map. (for ranking)
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
NatsumeRin
If this rule is trying to make taiko mode more popular, it failed obviously. (Thanks to Mr Color's stats) Then shouldn't we think of some way to solve that? Making it a guideline won't hurt.

And it's quite interesting, i saw several people in this thread "it only takes you 15 mins to make a decent easier diff". Do you think you really need taiko mods for such cases? Taiko mods make maps better? Huh.

From my experience in this few months: It's really hard to find taiko modders, even i'm a BAT yeah. And honestly what's those taiko mods for? I know taiko quite well and i see only little difference between "modded"/"unmodded" in 90% taiko maps (with the word "mod" i mean "a mod but not saying remap"). So if taiko mod is useless & hard to find > Mappers won't like to add taiko diffs > Taiko mode is even less popular > What we got now.

And in the XAT team, if you'd like to... you can count how many guys are really capable and willing to (honestly, i'm not always willing to) mod a taiko map? With <20% guys really know taiko, why do you need to treat taiko the same as standard?

People are enthusiastic for ranking, that's not wrong. Guide them is always a better idea than just keep them away.
peppy
19,318 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I believe we could allow since difficulty taiko additions is it is less-than-hard level. My standpoint here is that as always, there always needs to be an accessible difficulty for those who aren't taiko pros. So potentially, you could add a single taiko normal/hard to your set without too many issues.

As has already been mentioned, making easier taiko maps doesn't take a huge deal of time, so if you have already gone to the effort of making a competent Insane (oni) map them there really is no excuse.
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
The issue of mappers being afraid of taiko difficulties invading their maps still exists though. And while I agree that there should definitely be more Taiko diffs on the easy side, I don't think mappers, while they don't mind one Taiko difficulty on their set, want to see Taiko maps sprouting all over and making them wait more then they wish they had to. I'm not saying they have the right mindset, it's just the way things are, and I doubt it's going to change, which is unfortunate. If everyone was willing to have more than one Taiko difficulty on their set, then we wouldn't be discussing this right now.

For mappers that, like me, enjoy mapping both standard and Taiko, having a good spread in both modes isn't a big deal at all, in fact when I see my Rising In the Sun map I'm pretty proud of the difficulty spread, even though the muzukashii was mapped by lepidopodus.

You have to realize that many of the taiko difficulties on maps before the rule were guest difficulties because most of the mappers in this game do not map Taiko and thus, do not want to bother with its ranking rules. In the end, I don't think there are many more maps with a Taiko spread after the rule than before. If we disregard all the maps that were submitted before said rule and ranked today, we really miss out on a lot of Taiko difficulties.

I also disagree with people saying that those who used to make guest difficulties should start making mapsets on their own. Sure, it'd get a better spread going now that Taiko-only mapsets are allowed. However, I believe that many guest difficulties were inspired by this thought: "Oh, this map is pretty good, I like how the mapper made the standard difficulties. Hmm, but there's something missing... Oh, a Taiko difficulty! Since I map Taiko, why not make a difficulty and ask if the mapper can take it?" it's not the same kind of inspiration that one has towards starting a mapset, at least not in my opinion. When I start a mapset, it's because I like the song and want a map to go with it. If I make a guest difficulty, it's because the mapset coming with the song would benefit from it, while I don't necessarily enjoy the song. That might just be me, but that's how I work and I feel like I'm not alone.

Then of course there's the problem of mods that we keep getting back to, and mappers know this so that makes them even more reticent to accept Taiko difficulties.


peppy, I remember a discussion held in #modhelp some months ago where you said you were planning to make ranking more accessible, but reward the best maps through the charts, giving them more attention or something. I can't help but feel that there's a way to do this for Taiko too. Make mapsets with one taiko diff not unrankable, but promote the use of Taiko spread in mapsets through the charts. It will give mappers incentive to accept taiko maps, and taiko spreads, and mappers who don't want that can still have the usual one-difficulty Taiko in their mapsets. I don't think anybody loses in this situation, but when I originally expressed this thought, I got told that charts "don't work that way".
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
What I don't understand is often any Normal or Hard level beatmap can make a nice playing taiko. why does it need a separate taiko only? More likely than not, one of the osu standard difficulties is more than playable as a taiko.

Also it should be up to the modders to decide whether an osu standard map has a good taiko conversion. Is it necessary to add a taiko in that's almost virtually the same as an osu standard conversion?
Mercurial
Mercurial
I was just reading and I stopped here.

NoHitter wrote:

Not sure about this, honestly.
A lot of MATs/BATs still don't mod Taiko.
p/1878469



You know what? Ono never came, grumd modded it because I've requested him 1 week before.

Just throwing my 2 cents.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Leaving 2 cents means youre leaving an opinion, not an ancedote.

That said, whats is wrong with appealing to authority? Maybe he checked it and found nothing wrong and wanted another check to be sure? And lastly, people get busy and also have the capacity to forget. Im not seeing any point to your post here.
[Luanny]
8,248 posts
Joined April 2011
[Luanny]
Ono is busy with his real like, afaik~
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
making them wait more then they wish they had to
Well, it depends on the mappers experience, how he makes the two diffs.. *

most of the mappers in this game do not map Taiko and thus, do not want to bother with its ranking rules

OnosakiHito wrote:

P.s.: I disagree that it is hard to find people who take two taiko diffs.. Actually it is really easy, but it's the way of asking and connections I guess, huh?
Actually osu! players are willed to take both taiko diffs after you explained the situation to them. Of this explanation you can make a basic connection to this osu mapper, which in most cases agrees for more taiko guest diffs in further mapping projects. D33d or Saten-san took 3 Taiko diffs as well from me. Or Nakagawa-Kanon took 3 Taiko diffs. He was even on the way to take 2 more taiko diff's from me to have 5 of them at the end, but map was allready twice bubbled.
It's really not that hard Mr Color. It depends also on the guest diff requester for a fail or win. :s

Then of course there's the problem of mods that we keep getting back to, and mappers know this so that makes them even more reticent to accept Taiko difficulties.
This is something I agree with. This is really a huge problem in our Taiko community, which causes the new rule to fail badly. We can't hide the fact that most of our people have not the experience for it yet, while the one who have it, are afking for a long time because of real-life and etc..
I am getting daily over 10 mod requests which gives me a look into this situation. I even need to mod with some MAT's/BAT's together, which I can't keep trak on it sometimes because of this huge number of requests(and schoolwork), my apologize @ Mercurial.*
Suggestion from me about the rule:
Because of this last reason, I would suggest to make this rule to a guidline(as Mr Color said) for now, because it is not mostly weigthed on mappers view to map two diffculties, rather more like the fact because we lack of mods. The Taiko-sets are a good beginning for now. People are learning from these sets how to mod more then just one diff., and gain a lots of experience. After we have a decent ranking process we can change this guidline to a rule.
To bring this forward, I am allready preparing this team to begin with the modding again. So maybe let's do it in this way I suggested it(and what Mr Color mentioned as well) and help us hand in hand?
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
As far as I'm concerned OnosakiHito is doing an examplary job with modding Taiko maps, so I'm not sure what you're talking about, Mercurial. Plus, it really isn't relevant here so please refrain from making posts like that in the future, it looks like you're publicly trying to call out Ono just because he didn't mod your map.


@Ono what I meant is if you try to find taiko diffs for your mapset, I agree than a little chat in #taiko works wonders. However, I'm talking about people who wouldn't normally request taiko diffs for their map but end up getting some because frequently mappers ask "can I make a Taiko for this ?" (I think you're familiar with this) and nowadays mappers are more prone to refusing because of the aforementioned reasons you agreed with. If you're willing to take taiko maps in your mapset and go through with the modding process, there really is no problem. Unfortunately that is not the case for a lot of mappers.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
Being the one who proposed this in GD a few months ago, I'll explain some things.

Before these rules came out, there was a major problem for people trying to get into Taiko. While the Oni's and Inner Onis that people were mapping were good and followed the feel of authentic Taiko no Tatsujin charts, translated muzukashii,kaataan, and futuu maps did not. These maps were not able to replicate the learning process that was required for Oni maps at all. This means nobody can learn how to play taiko without either purchasing a taiko no tatsujin game from japan and suffering the drum>keyboard translation of muscle memory (What I did), or being forced to play unranked mapsets that include easy taiko difficulties. As you could imagine, not being able to learn the game without doing extensive research to find maps to play is not what a rhythm game should endorse.

The new rule (The 2 difficulty one) makes it a requirement to provide a muzukashii level difficulty or lower if your map includes an Oni or higher level difficulty. This already makes learning how to play taiko that much easier simply because players have maps to actually learn on. This also doubles as a way to get your map enjoyed by more people. Even playing taiko for a while, I was unable to play most of my favorite songs simply because the taiko chart was crazy hard for me at my level. Most people would just say "Get better", but they fail to notice that there was no maps for me to practice on, let alone songs I liked.

One of your main arguments in the OP is that people will be less likely to make taiko difficulties because they would have to make two instead of one. With this logic, all we are going to scare away is the people who make generic pattern taiko difficulties that usually have low work ethics already. Sure we might lose some people, but we also gain some more people in two different ways:

The first one is just simple logic. If more people are able to play taiko, more people are going to learn how to play and learn how to make maps. We literally take the entire population of people who before said "I would play but the maps are too hard" and we put them in the "potential mappers" pile. Not everyone is going to make maps, but we should at least be able to replace the lazy people we lost.

The second one is more or less a bonus. Another rule kicked in at the same time that allowed Taiko-Only mapsets to become rankable. This stimulates the best taiko mappers to work on projects that are not simple guest maps but entire mapsets. The logic behind this is kinda flimsy, but if all of the experienced taiko mappers are busy, the people wanting guest difficulties will turn to the people we gained in the first step. We now have a demand for mappers, motivated mappers, and more opportunities for both the mappers and the players to do what they love.

What I ask of you, is this. Is this rule really that bad? We lose some lazy mappers and we gain some good mappers, which now have more places to do what they love. I don't want to assume you don't play taiko, but this rule makes pretty much everyone involved with taiko (except lazy mappers) rejoice. It doesn't affect osu! players at all, unless they were looking into playing taiko, in which they are happy. It is literally a win-win situation for both sides of the userbase.
karterfreak
osu! Alumni
724 posts
Joined August 2011
karterfreak
@ Mithost: While you're generally right about it being a win/win situation. It isn't entirely the case because of one huge issue that Taiko has right now, and that's a serious lack of modders. We have a lot of maps that are just sitting there looking to be modded (See: I'm your daddy, Scar in the earth, several others) that are full taiko mapsets, and they're relatively untouched in most cases because of the lack of people who can mod or are willing to mod.

When people only needed to accept one taiko map for a mapset, it was much easier to get a guest difficulty into the mapset because (from what I noticed) some osu! standard mappers would mod the taiko maps to help get the standard set ranked, and there was generally less mods required for ranking, generally in the range of 2-3 taiko mods. Now we're in a situation where taiko-exclusive sets are ignored by the osu! standard modders because there's no relevance to their game mode anymore, and we need a LOT more mods to get them ranked (both for muzu/oni guest diff's in a set and for full taiko sets) due to there being more difficulties which means a more thorough modding process. This would be fine, if not for the severe lack of modders, as I've already mentioned.

So in a world where we had more modders, yes this would work out fine because osu! standard mappers wouldn't be so reluctant to get two taiko diffs if they could get mods for the maps quicker. Right now we just have a case where taiko-specific sets can't get enough mods and osu! standard mappers will actually refuse or be reluctant to including taiko guest difficulties just from the difficulty of getting taiko mods.
Mercurial
Mercurial

OnosakiHito wrote:

This is something I agree with. This is really a huge problem in our Taiko community, which causes the new rule to fail badly. We can't hide the fact that most of our people have not the experience for it yet, while the one who have it, are afking for a long time because of real-life and etc..
I am getting daily over 10 mod requests which gives me a look into this situation. I even need to mod with some MAT's/BAT's together, which I can't keep trak on it sometimes because of this huge number of requests(and schoolwork), my apologize @ Mercurial.*
Ya welcome :3
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
If you're getting more mappers, you'd naturally get more modders into the mix as well. They both foster on each other, even if the modding side tends to grow more slowly due to the time required. If you haven't noticed, the same thing happens with osu! standard maps too. I constantly hear that people can't find modders. If you're a mapper, you need to go out and mod yourself to help stimulate other sets and get the cogs greased and primed. As we all know, this system doesn't work when only one one side is pushing.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
As Tasha said, and Garven mentioned in short way: It dosen't work if only one side - the mapping - is pushing.
So making the rule later active is fine, but for now we should keep it how it was.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Why not do mod4mod with fellow taiko mappers like most people do? or better yet, if you want your Taiko mapset ranked just go and mod other Taiko mapsets and the fellow mappers are likely to return the favor. You can't except to receive if you don't give. (And i just realized that i said the same thing as Garven said but in different words).

Besides what does the modding community have anything to do with the 2 taiko diff rule? I mean, like even if it was only 1 diff, you'd still need a lot of mods nowadays, so it wouldn't change anything except for the fact that you can be more lazy, so there's no real reason to change it back, and yeah this was a "very light" guideline that no one followed ever for like 3 months or so before this rule came into play, so if anything, yes, we already tried "encouraging" mappers to make additional difficulties, it never happened.

Off-topic: Why isnt this thread in the ranking criteria discussion forum?
ztrot
osu! Alumni
4,378 posts
Joined February 2008
ztrot
why not till taiko gets bigger, oh I don't know possibly set the star lvl for taiko only map sets to be something like +6 before ranking (if that is even something that can be done sounds like fourm modding work if it was to even be considered) heck I don't know spitballin atm.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos

Sakura wrote:

Why not do mod4mod with fellow taiko mappers like most people do? or better yet, if you want your Taiko mapset ranked just go and mod other Taiko mapsets and the fellow mappers are likely to return the favor. You can't except to receive if you don't give. (And i just realized that i said the same thing as Garven said but in different words).

Besides what does the modding community have anything to do with the 2 taiko diff rule? I mean, like even if it was only 1 diff, you'd still need a lot of mods nowadays, so it wouldn't change anything except for the fact that you can be more lazy, so there's no real reason to change it back, and yeah this was a "very light" guideline that no one followed ever for like 3 months or so before this rule came into play, so if anything, yes, we already tried "encouraging" mappers to make additional difficulties, it never happened.

Off-topic: Why isnt this thread in the ranking criteria discussion forum?
This^^
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane

Sakura wrote:

Off-topic: Why isnt this thread in the ranking criteria discussion forum?
I was advised to make a thread here. Feel free to move the thread
Kuro
836 posts
Joined July 2012
Kuro

Sakura wrote:

Why not do mod4mod with fellow taiko mappers like most people do? or better yet, if you want your Taiko mapset ranked just go and mod other Taiko mapsets and the fellow mappers are likely to return the favor. You can't except to receive if you don't give.
I closed my modding queue a long time ago so everyone else can stop bothering me (that also means no m4m from me anymore) </3 :x


I only mod mint's taiko diffs. now because mint is cool (and because mint always asks me to) :P
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I think this rule needs to be addressed further.

A mapset cannot have just one Taiko difficulty. If you decide to include Taiko in your map, make sure you have at least 2 Taiko mode difficulties and that one of them is of an easier difficulty level if it doesn't have an osu! standard Easy level difficulty

1. This rule just cannot apply to all songs and if it did apply, it would be covered by the standard difficulties to bring up the slack. Consider songs that have very few beats in them. The BPM of some songs can be simple enough that the standard difficulty level can be suited for a taiko conversion within reason. I think taiko modders are equipped enough to tell whether a conversion is good enough to count as the second taiko difficulty.

It seems a much better option than trying to force a beat that the standard difficulties already closely resemble. Some of us do try to properly hitsound our difficulties, and try to make them playable in other gamemodes. I really don't think we should be openly admitting our taiko conversion algorithm sucks so taiko players should not play it. They should play authentic maps only.

2. This rule is counter-productive in how it is phrased in a literal sense. You need to have an Easy level Taiko difficulty unless you have an Easy level osu! standard. This is literally saying osu! standard Easy conversions to Taiko is a suitable standard for an easy taiko level difficulty. Do we value taiko conversions or not?

I thought this rule was added for the specific reason of introducing newer players into the taiko gamemode. Why do we even have an exception to the rule if you have a standard converted difficulty? It would be more effective to force taiko mappers to make at least a Muzukashii or easier in every mapset regardless of osu! standard or just drop this nonsense, and have more detailed qualifications to have two taiko difficulties. It doesn't make sense that taiko mappers must have an easy level taiko if there isn't a standard conversion, but if there is a standard conversion easy level, then you must have two taiko difficulties anyways regardless of difficulty.

3. Where is it explained why you must have two difficulties in Taiko? Certainly osu! shouldn't be hiding this information. Taiko mappers shouldn't have to follow a rule without knowledge of what the rule is set to avoid. I've already pointed out that the phrasing is sending mixed messages. I had to critically think about the almost cryptic reason for the rule's existence.

4. Clear this up for me. The way the rules are currently phrased: it is technically rankable to have a single standard Easy grade map in a taiko specific mapset, and then be able to have a Muzukashii and then any number of Onis. Technically the well-designed difficulty spread counts, so players can't go directly to Oni, but it's kind of misleading that this rule which involves star rating applies to taiko. It would probably be easy to overlook this rule thinking that it only applies to standard, because of how it's phrased. I could also exploit it if I chose to do so, because it doesn't have any specification that the difficulty spread has to be all one game mode. I could have a standard easy, a CTB hard, and then any number of taiko oni's, because it doesn't say it has to be mode specific.

This brings up an interesting situation. You can have a mapset with all taikos and one standard, but you cannot have a mapset with all standard and one taiko. How do you counter this observation?

5. My opinion is that the rule should not apply if the mapset has at least an Easy and a Normal osu! standard map and the difficulty is no harder than a Muzukashii. The well balanced spread can apply to the easier taiko conversion difficulties. If the taiko modders/ XATs do not feel the conversions are balanced enough to count as the second taiko difficulty, then it's stopped. Otherwise you must have at least a Muzukashii or easier to have an Oni. (Unless we want to be hypocritical about introducing players into the game). The taiko community really needs to work out what they value here, because I'm having problems giving an opinion on what the requirements should be.

Should we be requiring an entry level difficulty or just any old second taiko? I don't really see the point of having the rule if people are just going to make two Onis. If that the taiko community values, then it's best we just remove this rule altogether. Remove this confusion of interests, and stand behind your principles. Address this and be open about it. Point 3 is a valid complaint. If the administrators cannot come up with a solid reasoning behind enforcing a rule, then why should we enforce it?
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,842 posts
Joined March 2010
OnosakiHito
I read what you wrote, but to be honest:
The rule is now about 6 months old and it was meant to give beginners some easy maps because we had no taiko sets.
So i would say, give it a bit more time until we have enough taiko sets to be able to kill this rule.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

OnosakiHito wrote:

I read what you wrote, but to be honest:
The rule is now about 6 months old and it was meant to give beginners some easy maps because we had no taiko sets.
So i would say, give it a bit more time until we have enough taiko sets to be able to kill this rule.
This rule won't go away no matter how many taiko sets there are. Just like in osu! you need easier difficulties to get ranked (Even guest diffs). This applies to all game modes, even ctb and osu!mania.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I'm not saying kill the rule. I'm saying if we don't want to appear hypocritical, then force mappers to include an easier taiko mode as part of their two taiko requirement. It makes no sense that we're proclaiming that the conversions aren't good enough, but at the same time acknowledging that beginner level standard maps are good substitutes for taiko specific. Remove the osu standard requirement for easy, and add a clause for including at least an easier grade taiko in your set.

If you want two challenging taikos, you'll need to map an easier taiko. This is how it is in standard. If the well spread rule is going to apply on a per gamemode level, then that means all gamemodes need to follow it separately or it can be exploited quite easily.

If this is not the direction the admins want to go with this rule, then the alternative is just to remove the rule, because it doesn't serve the purpose of making taiko more accessible. It just means players are forced to make two taikos for no reason at all. There are two rules that are seriously flawed here, and both need to be rewritten in order to make this a good system.

Edit: Ooh looks like someone edited the well-designed spread rule. That's a bit better. It's still long-winded. I believe I can fuse the two rules together in a concise manner.

Mapsets must have at least two difficulties per gamemode It is possible for Marathon difficulties to have only 1 difficulty, but it must be named Marathon for the BSS to allow the submission to pending.

^Removed Easy/Normal clause, because it is covered under well-designed spread rule. Also introduced two beatmaps per gamemode clause.

The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties (per gamemode), containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty (based on how the map feels): this is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love. It's really hard to define how a specific spread could work in a specific song beforehand, but here's a list of things to consider: the difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order and/or with a reasonable gap between them; there should be at least one difficulty around ~2.5/3 star difficulty level; if your mapset has at least two difficulties, the second hardest (of the same gamemode) cannot be insane (this basically means that it's highly recommended to have at least 3 difficulties unless the song itself doesn't allow much variety); if your map has four or more difficulties of a single gamemode, at least two should be something other than Insane. A mapset that has Taiko-specific difficulties must include at least an Easy(Kantan)/Normal(Futsuu) level difficulty if there is not an Easy/Normal osu!standard difficulty in the mapset.

^Made it much more clear that difficulties in the spread count towards a single gamemode, changed Easy to Easy/Normal, removed unnecessary repetition, appended clause about requiring a taiko Easy level difficulty from the two taiko requirement rule. The rest of the two taiko rule was already handled under the at least two difficulties rule at the top. Two taiko rule is now completely integrated with the other rules and is no longer necessary.

The requirement for an Easy/Normal level difficulty was mentioned three times. I'm sure it only needs to be mentioned once. ;)
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I'll be happy as long as there is enough material for newer players to adequately practice taiko as if someone would practice playing osu! (playing songs they like instead of grinding pattern lessons). The best way (that I've found at least) is to "force" the creation of easier taiko difficulties to attempt to bridge the gap between beginner and Oni player.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Since the rule has been globalized over all present game modes, I'll mark that with a flame for "No change"
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Topic Starter
Cyclohexane
Oh well. This was worth it overall I guess. I thought it would end like this anyway, but eh.

I might come back to discuss this if the situation gets worse, though.
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