What happens if the map maker is no longer with us? Can someone else take ownership?
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Older Map Refurbishing?
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Instead of that...it's better to remap the song with an entirely new difficulty,new map author, etc submitting as a new beatmap...and if your idea takes importance, then deranking would still be imperative to make changes and check quality control for any beatmap.Kitokofox wrote:
Well, I took a look at some of the older ranked maps in osu! and thought that they could look nicer with a few small things here.
So, I thought some of us could take time to refurbish these old maps a little, like give them more accurate timing, maybe a nice BG, or a storyboard even! We won't have to derank them, they will still remain their legacy with their mapping style and difficulty. They'll just look nicer along with the more improved osu! of today.
But yeah, I don't know if anyone else is with me on this, or who would help do this sort of thing. I mean, there's a lot of maps made by various people, it's not exactly possible to take someone's map and help improve it to clean up osu! because the maps simply aren't made by us. We need permission first I guess..
Its part of osu! legacy to leave maps prior to 2010 as they are.
Even though they lack the qualities of todays top maps, they serve as a reminder of how much this game has progressed.
Even though they lack the qualities of todays top maps, they serve as a reminder of how much this game has progressed.
Topic Starter
I didn't know there was a legacy rule here.
But it was just a thought I was throwing out there, that it would be nice to have a cleaner osu!. And if there are mappers out there who still have their after-2010 maps that could use even a slight improvement, like an offset change or a nice BG, they probably could take a little time to do that. I mean, there's ways to change up the map without the need of modding processes, like making the background not blend in with the notes, fixing the BPM a little..
Perhaps I'm barking into a gulch by suggestign all this, but it's worth a thought at least..
But it was just a thought I was throwing out there, that it would be nice to have a cleaner osu!. And if there are mappers out there who still have their after-2010 maps that could use even a slight improvement, like an offset change or a nice BG, they probably could take a little time to do that. I mean, there's ways to change up the map without the need of modding processes, like making the background not blend in with the notes, fixing the BPM a little..
Perhaps I'm barking into a gulch by suggestign all this, but it's worth a thought at least..
Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.
~Moving on is hard~
the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
~Moving on is hard~
the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
Some people just have different opinions and Aqo doesn't seem to understand that.
how would you feel if you came back to this game several years later to find out that your work was changed without you knowing?Aqo wrote:
Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.
~Moving on is hard~
the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
Could not agree more with this. These "older maps" are a part of osu!'s history and don't deserve to be tampered with. If you don't like them or enjoy them then the solution is simple: don't play them.Lily-Kun wrote:
Its part of osu! legacy to leave maps prior to 2010 as they are.
Even though they lack the qualities of todays top maps, they serve as a reminder of how much this game has progressed.
We'd appreciate it if you'd kindly go be narcissistic elsewhere.Aqo wrote:
Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.
~Moving on is hard~
the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
Maybe I'm weird but, had I seen old maps of mine that are no longer up to par with today's standards getting unranked I'd be fine with that.Sync wrote:
how would you feel if you came back to this game several years later to find out that your work was changed without you knowing?
In fact I've seen several other mappers openly wishing and writing in chat that they'd wish they had an option to delete some of their older ranked maps, as they believe their quality no longer represents mapping today.
That said, I respect different people's different views on the matter, but if you're going to be objective on this then it's a double edged standard when you're keeping those old maps ranked and meanwhile forcing current time mappers to do certain adjustments to their maps or else not allowing them to get ranked. It's really cute to say that this is being "unfair" to people of the past but, at the moment, you're being unfair to people of the present.
let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
JappyBabes wrote:
let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
you dont HAVE to play the maps if you dont like them.
just leave them be and playing something you do enjoy
just leave them be and playing something you do enjoy
This thread makes me sad
Only thing I don't support about old maps is that some newbies join the game, search for some songs, end up playing 2008 maps and then quit because "wtf this doesn't make sense". Not making this up or just assumiing, I have several friends who tried out this game and quit, tried again a few years months and they were like "oh maps are way better now, couldn't play this at all lol it was so bad, these new maps are better". Even newbies can understand a map is bad when it is bad timed or doesn't make much sense.
Maybe make something so that doesn't happen? Remember only people who may be actually troubled about old maps bad quality are those who don't really understand that they don't represent the game at all.
Maybe make something so that doesn't happen? Remember only people who may be actually troubled about old maps bad quality are those who don't really understand that they don't represent the game at all.
Again, the same could be said for maps today.silmarilen wrote:
you dont HAVE to play the maps if you dont like them.
Certain modding for the recent ranked map 'The Creator' has made a lot of long-time fav'ers of the map from its time in pending no longer like it. Why was this modding forced upon the map? If you don't like it, they don't play it. The map WAS fine, but for some reason it wasn't allowed to get ranked.
So, mappers today have to take the hose? But you "respect" old mappers, even that half of what they did wasn't even correct? I'm not talking about the famous old maps that come to your mind when you think of old maps, a ton of old maps suffer from serious issues on a very basic level like /bpm and offset that doesn't even match the song/ and yet apparently it's "fine because it's part of osu's history".
What.
If you want to be right, then don't take double standards.
also +1 to this. this is soooooo true. I know more than 20 different people who tried osu and quit it simply because they started the game by looking in search for songs that they knew, ended up finding old maps for them and playing those, and quickly dropping interest in the game.Wishy wrote:
Only thing I don't support about old maps is that some newbies join the game, search for some songs, end up playing 2008 maps and then quit because "wtf this doesn't make sense".
A veteran player has no issue finding maps when they're unranked, so if an old ranked map gets unranked it won't stop you from still playing it or hosting it in mp and so on, but why does it still deserve to be ranked when it -doesn't even meet ranking criteria- ?
It would be nice if certain maps were moved to a different criteria for "old ranked, no longer today ranked", maybe not call it "Approved" but instead "Legacy" maps or whatever.JappyBabes wrote:
let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
why change something that doesn't need change? most people won't play old maps, and those who do are either determined to play them or they have fun. everyone is happy. why is there even a discussion?
At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
If you find a old song, just remap it with new diff's that match 2013's standards? As we obviously see, 2 beatmaps+ for one song is common practice, so you could just remap the song and thus have 2 versions, the old and the new? Making everyone happy because old maps still get to stay, and we have a more modern beat map of the song?
Just my 2C
Just my 2C
This is actually possible and would be a nice idea.theowest wrote:
At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
why? most players that would play old maps would just dim them anyway :/theowest wrote:
At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
I actually agree with this.theowest wrote:
At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
But if you're going to do that to maps, why not also fix their bpms and offsets while you're at it? At least fix the bpm / everything related to red timing sections, since offset is apparently fixable through some online global trick.
This is actually sounds good.Aqo wrote:
maybe not call it "Approved" but instead "Legacy" maps or whatever.
Please for the sake of everything that is not wrong, don't talk about things you don't know about. Even today that map still has a couple of 1/4 streams which shouldn't have ever been ranked because it's wrong in both technical and musical sense (that song is NOT 280 bpm). I already stated in the map's thread that such a map should not aim for rank just because of this problem and the people decided to push for rank anyway. If you can't understand that, then I really don't know what to say.Aqo wrote:
Certain modding for the recent ranked map 'The Creator' has made a lot of long-time fav'ers of the map from its time in pending no longer like it.
As for the on topic, everyone is free to re-map any song that is already ranked. Leaving old maps be is a good thing, because there are people who still like them. Going here and saying that such maps scare away the new people isn't that correct, because I don't know how would the new guys search for specificially old maps because all the map lists kinda point towards the latest ranked ones. Several years have passed so even if you somehow end up in the middle of the maps list you still get pretty good maps. I mean take a look at the number after the /s/, when I made my first map (start of 2011) it was around 25000, today it's nearing 80000. That's a LOT of maps since 2011 until today, which basically means that 2008~2010 maps don't even make a quarter of all the maps that are around.
Also there are new trends active now as well, especially if you consider anime/games, since newer stuff is far more popular than stuff from several years ago.
tldr; it's fine, if you want to make old maps better, feel free to remap them youself.
it's fun playing maps that aren't up to todays standard
And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.
Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Same with this map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/3435Bass wrote:
And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.
Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Actually it's one of my favorites.
When I started to play I actually ended with old maps from 2007 or '08 - '09
Either I downloaded the first mappacks (because I thought that might be a good idea if i want to play all of them) or I actually searched for songs that I liked
I had and still have alot of fun playing those old maps. I like trying to find the best local offset and getting a high acc. rather than today where you can DT, HR or atleast HD the Hard on first try.
In the past more maps of songs that I liked got ranked. Sometimes I even re-map them just for fun.
As stated already just leave them alone and move on.
Either I downloaded the first mappacks (because I thought that might be a good idea if i want to play all of them) or I actually searched for songs that I liked
I had and still have alot of fun playing those old maps. I like trying to find the best local offset and getting a high acc. rather than today where you can DT, HR or atleast HD the Hard on first try.
In the past more maps of songs that I liked got ranked. Sometimes I even re-map them just for fun.
As stated already just leave them alone and move on.
i cribomber34 wrote:
I had and still have alot of fun finding local offsets or re-mapping broken parts of maps
good for youAqo wrote:
i cri
Not saying it's wrong for you to enjoy that, but that pretty much shows that *something* in those old maps is different from today's maps.bomber34 wrote:
good for youAqo wrote:
i cri
aand?Aqo wrote:
Not saying it's wrong for you to enjoy that, but that pretty much shows that *something* in those old maps is different from today's maps.bomber34 wrote:
good for you
keyword: FUN
the maps are bad/terrible on today's standards? of course they are.
however, some people have different standards, and these maps satisfy their needs more than the same-as-always maps from nowadays.
Sync's Argument is one of the points why I am against of this.
I also think that Maps without Backgrounds should have one, just for the look, yh. But honestly, that should be all. Nothing else should be changed, like the BPM or whatever else. If people are having troubles with the BPM (and they're right, just the Offset is not that good), they should poke someone to get the correct Offset or should post it here: t/13795
Aaaand then, if we start to fix the BGs, then I am pretty damn sure that some people are coming and wants.. a fixed BPM, for the sake of accuracy. Then, even a Video (because the Song got a MV) or even worse, they want to add some stuff more like SBs, Skins and whatever you can add. The thing is just: Let these maps like they're. Did people had the variety of options and setting what we got today? No. These maps are also an example of the things how osu! was in the past.
I also think that Maps without Backgrounds should have one, just for the look, yh. But honestly, that should be all. Nothing else should be changed, like the BPM or whatever else. If people are having troubles with the BPM (and they're right, just the Offset is not that good), they should poke someone to get the correct Offset or should post it here: t/13795
Aaaand then, if we start to fix the BGs, then I am pretty damn sure that some people are coming and wants.. a fixed BPM, for the sake of accuracy. Then, even a Video (because the Song got a MV) or even worse, they want to add some stuff more like SBs, Skins and whatever you can add. The thing is just: Let these maps like they're. Did people had the variety of options and setting what we got today? No. These maps are also an example of the things how osu! was in the past.
really. why does this bother you so much?
ampzz
This whole thing makes me laugh.
I wasn't even around when the maps which were made in an editor nowhere near as easy to use as today's is with all the bells and whistles, yet I still admire what they've done with all that was available at the time.
I still enjoy playing the older insanes as they provide a unique challenge over all of the generic CS4, AR8-9 maps of today which most generally start looking like each other lately.
The only thing which 'could' use the touch-up would be the BPM / offset corrections with the necessary re-snapping and slider length changes to cater for them but whatever, they're still fun regardless.
It's not like it takes a lot of effort to create your own beatmap set for a song which has older variations, heck I swore I read somewhere that if you dislike a song's map/s to then go and create one yourself. Since obviously some people don't particularly mind having more of the same song having a few differing mapsets for it.
I wasn't even around when the maps which were made in an editor nowhere near as easy to use as today's is with all the bells and whistles, yet I still admire what they've done with all that was available at the time.
I still enjoy playing the older insanes as they provide a unique challenge over all of the generic CS4, AR8-9 maps of today which most generally start looking like each other lately.
The only thing which 'could' use the touch-up would be the BPM / offset corrections with the necessary re-snapping and slider length changes to cater for them but whatever, they're still fun regardless.
It's not like it takes a lot of effort to create your own beatmap set for a song which has older variations, heck I swore I read somewhere that if you dislike a song's map/s to then go and create one yourself. Since obviously some people don't particularly mind having more of the same song having a few differing mapsets for it.
aqo doesn't like fun.silmarilen wrote:
really. why does this bother you so much?
next he wants rocks implemented.
looking forward to these rocks.Tanzklaue wrote:
aqo doesn't like fun.silmarilen wrote:
really. why does this bother you so much?
next he wants rocks implemented.
But only if those Rocks provide AR12
Having some "Legacy" thing to move old, terrible maps that don't make any sense and have terrible timing would be good. Would make them somewhat special, since even if they are most people (including new players) don't have fun playing bad maps that don't make sense with bad timing.
I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
How about a notification when an old map is first loaded (each map's .osu records what format version it uses, so this should be possible - most offending maps are v6 or earlier, for example)? Like so:Wishy wrote:
Having some "Legacy" thing to move old, terrible maps that don't make any sense and have terrible timing would be good. Would make them somewhat special, since even if they are most people (including new players) don't have fun playing bad maps that don't make sense with bad timing.
I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
This map is old and may not follow modern ranking standards.Maybe bottom right-hand corner for older users and a black, obvious one for newbies. If they had "This map is old..." flashing across their screen I'm pretty sure they'd get what it's implying pretty quickly. i.e. "This map is old and, as such, may or may not suck."
EDIT: Such a thing would go away after the user's been around a couple of weeks, of course, for people's sanity.
Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
I've already remapped & ranked a new version my most played old map, though.Stefan wrote:
Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
That doesn't matter since people will still get into those old maps.Stefan wrote:
Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
Lucky you. The friend who introduced me to osu doesn't have such a great taste =.= I actually quit osu twice.Wishy wrote:
I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
Back on topic: I can start to see a viable option taking shape after so many discussions in this thread. I support leaving the old maps untouched, but giving them a "legacy" status in a form of a stamp in game AND a 1-line legacy warning when searched online. Something to this effect should work:
"Legacy Warning - This map is OLD! New players may find it hard to follow when compared to today's mapping standard."
+support plsjesus1412 wrote:
---
fun experiment, only for brave people who are willing to use a pending slot:
1. find an old map that is not famous (i.e. not something like savage garden)
2. download it
3. notepad edit the mapper name to your own, change nothing else
4. upload it as your own map
5. try to rank it
in fact go ahead and PM a BAT saying you have a map that's ready for rank and needs a bubble. see what they say.
You're missing the point, no one said that the old maps are of the same quality as current maps, they just said they didn't want them suddenly changed and gave reasons for it.Aqo wrote:
fun experiment, only for brave people who are willing to use a pending slot:
1. find an old map that is not famous (i.e. not something like savage garden)
2. download it
3. notepad edit the mapper name to your own, change nothing else
4. upload it as your own map
5. try to rank it
in fact go ahead and PM a BAT saying you have a map that's ready for rank and needs a bubble. see what they say.
Personally retimings would be pretty good, since they directly affect if a map's playable. The other things aren't as big of a problem and I do like the fact that they show how mapping (placements and such) has progressed.
You're missing the point. Keeping those maps ranked today is a double standard and a slap in the face for many mappers today whose maps are fun for many players but apparently they're "unrankable". Those old maps may be fun for some people, and the only argument they have to keep those maps ranked is that "they're still fun for me", but if that is what's keeping them ranked, then why can't maps today that large portions of the community enjoy TODAY get ranked? Why are certain restrictions -which are entirely opinionated- are placed upon how a mapper is allowed to design his map?
For example why are overmapped triplets that don't follow anything in the music fine on TV size anime ops, but not fine on a high diff map? Saying "it doesn't follow the music" and calling that the reason is just showing how biased you're being. Many players enjoy overmapping and if it fits the mood and feel of the song and done in a good way modders should have no place to tell the mapper that his map is unrankable because of it.
Why is OD9 fine on a 120bpm map fine but OD7 not fine on a 280bpm map? Is there any reason here other than personal preference? I think people don't even realize how stupidly biased and inconsistent the current ranking system is. And yet with all of this, old maps are fine since "why do you care" and "it's still fun for me" and "it would be unfair to old mappers, who quit the game years ago and are never going to return". what a joke.
Reasons to care:
1. Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
2. Old maps scare away new players. I don't care how many people say it's not true, I've personally known over 20 people who tried to get into osu, searched for songs that were popular around 2008~2010 (whether it was ops of animes that ran back then, or actually western music that no longer gets ranked today almost at all), ended up running into old ranked maps, and quickly thereafter quitting the game. The existence of those maps being ranked hurts the first impression this game gives to new players.
Almost everything that revolves around "ranking" in this game is hugely biased and illogical, and the only reason it will never get fixed is because people are taking the "it was like this for a while and nobody is complaining, so it's fine", except people are complaining 24/7, at least until they realize they're speaking to a wall.
For example why are overmapped triplets that don't follow anything in the music fine on TV size anime ops, but not fine on a high diff map? Saying "it doesn't follow the music" and calling that the reason is just showing how biased you're being. Many players enjoy overmapping and if it fits the mood and feel of the song and done in a good way modders should have no place to tell the mapper that his map is unrankable because of it.
Why is OD9 fine on a 120bpm map fine but OD7 not fine on a 280bpm map? Is there any reason here other than personal preference? I think people don't even realize how stupidly biased and inconsistent the current ranking system is. And yet with all of this, old maps are fine since "why do you care" and "it's still fun for me" and "it would be unfair to old mappers, who quit the game years ago and are never going to return". what a joke.
Reasons to care:
1. Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
2. Old maps scare away new players. I don't care how many people say it's not true, I've personally known over 20 people who tried to get into osu, searched for songs that were popular around 2008~2010 (whether it was ops of animes that ran back then, or actually western music that no longer gets ranked today almost at all), ended up running into old ranked maps, and quickly thereafter quitting the game. The existence of those maps being ranked hurts the first impression this game gives to new players.
Almost everything that revolves around "ranking" in this game is hugely biased and illogical, and the only reason it will never get fixed is because people are taking the "it was like this for a while and nobody is complaining, so it's fine", except people are complaining 24/7, at least until they realize they're speaking to a wall.
Inb4 White Wolf actually wanted to keep that score.Kanye West wrote:
Same with this map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/3435Bass wrote:
And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.
Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Actually it's one of my favorites.
Actually, there are some people who prefer keeping old score, though the prerson includes old player who have old scores.
As for this issue, I'm currently am being indifferent, though I do lean towards "not changing everything". I still find old maps satisfying. It's just to show that old maps can be challenging sometimes, especially on getting good Accuracy on wrong timing.
I would have to agree with this though, mainly because I have old maps listed on my Best Performance list:
Additionally, remapping actually doesn't change much when it comes to Beatmap Pack achievements, and people who cared about those achievements might still continue to complain. For example, this has been included into the Beatmap Pack achievement despite a better mapset exists.Aqo wrote:
Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
I could have been complaining about not getting #1 because of old score, but I started to live on it anyway.
btw I'd just like to point one thing out, I think learning to play those weird timings that some old maps have does take a lot of skill (or at least, I tried and know how insanely hard it is in some cases) and respect the people who can actually perform very well on those maps. Winshley <3 your fullmod SS scores are some of the most impressive scores ever made for this game.
The point regarding PP in my earlier post was that, originally, this 'new ranking system' was introduced to encourage people playing new maps and compete for scores on them, but right now this system encourages people to just top rank old maps with half assed plays for easier points;;
The point regarding PP in my earlier post was that, originally, this 'new ranking system' was introduced to encourage people playing new maps and compete for scores on them, but right now this system encourages people to just top rank old maps with half assed plays for easier points;;
This is somewhat true. However the rules are not (always) retroactive. Just think of a situation where you end up with literally hundreds of thousands of maps that are ranked, and suddenly they become unrankable. Unrank them 1 by 1? It's more trouble than it's worth.Aqo wrote:
You're missing the point. Keeping those maps ranked today is a double standard and a slap in the face for many mappers today whose maps are fun for many players but apparently they're "unrankable". Those old maps may be fun for some people, and the only argument they have to keep those maps ranked is that "they're still fun for me", but if that is what's keeping them ranked, then why can't maps today that large portions of the community enjoy TODAY get ranked? Why are certain restrictions -which are entirely opinionated- are placed upon how a mapper is allowed to design his map?
As I said in one thread before, ranking is not a necessity, it's just a bonus. The map can still be fun, even if unrankable, just don't rank it. There are some mappers who enjoy mapping for the pure fun and they don't care about ranking, this is the right way to do it and I really respect that.
They are not fine, at least not in my eyes. Today people overuse them because they have no idea what they are doing (or they have an idea what they are doing which makes it even worse for me). You can check map thread yourself and see that people usually suggest to remove such things and the mappers still decline. Until you have a specific rule about this sadly you can't do anything about it.Aqo wrote:
For example why are overmapped triplets that don't follow anything in the music fine on TV size anime ops, but not fine on a high diff map? Saying "it doesn't follow the music" and calling that the reason is just showing how biased you're being. Many players enjoy overmapping and if it fits the mood and feel of the song and done in a good way modders should have no place to tell the mapper that his map is unrankable because of it.
Because low OD removes the rhythm challenge in this game. I also believe OD9 is excessive in RooM, however some people do not. Any map which is even remotely close to insane should at least use OD8 unless they are mistimed or the song doesn't have a consistent beat, such as more melodic songs which focus more on acoustics rather than rhythm, or where rhythm is hard to detect. Remember, AR and OD used to be a same setting in the past, and that was actually working pretty well. There is actually a somewhat unwritten rule about this, about using at least OD8 in the insane diffs, unless there are certain special condition around it.Aqo wrote:
Why is OD9 fine on a 120bpm map fine but OD7 not fine on a 280bpm map? Is there any reason here other than personal preference? I think people don't even realize how stupidly biased and inconsistent the current ranking system is. And yet with all of this, old maps are fine since "why do you care" and "it's still fun for me" and "it would be unfair to old mappers, who quit the game years ago and are never going to return". what a joke.
Keep in mind that I am not throwing your views out of here, I am merely trying to explain why such things happen. Not everyone is happy how things are handled either.
Let me just point out that I agree with your views on OD lolcubes, if it was up to me all of the maps in the game regardless of their difficulty were OD8 and you'd basically only have the choice between OD8/OD10 with or without HR (similar to gold 300 vs rainbow 
), however I don't see why not respect mappers' choices on OD when they feel otherwise for their own map. Regardless of what modders think, a mapper should have the choice of what to do with their map as long as the mapper knows what they're doing. The way it stands now, modding for rank, in a way, restricts mapping freedom - which leads to the current state of many "very similar" maps and very little originally (since originally is more often than not, unrankable).
The problem with old maps is that, mappers had no idea what they're doing.
It wasn't the fault of the mappers back then. They did try their best, or at least, some did, but Edit back then wasn't as advanced, and there wasn't as much knowledge about mapping as there is today, so it is inevitable that maps came out in much lower quality.
Everything that is related to "ranking", whether be it player ranking, map score ranking, map ranking process, in osu right now - suffers from major issues that need to be addressed. But no change will ever happen if people keep taking the approach of "learn to live with it". If you want to have improvements you need to be able to move on and not get stuck in the past.
I highly disagree with "It's more trouble than it's worth.". You should think in the exact opposite way. "Better late than never".
The more you delay it, the worse things get. Need to just stop at a point and make a clear decision to fix things.
), however I don't see why not respect mappers' choices on OD when they feel otherwise for their own map. Regardless of what modders think, a mapper should have the choice of what to do with their map as long as the mapper knows what they're doing. The way it stands now, modding for rank, in a way, restricts mapping freedom - which leads to the current state of many "very similar" maps and very little originally (since originally is more often than not, unrankable).The problem with old maps is that, mappers had no idea what they're doing.
It wasn't the fault of the mappers back then. They did try their best, or at least, some did, but Edit back then wasn't as advanced, and there wasn't as much knowledge about mapping as there is today, so it is inevitable that maps came out in much lower quality.
Everything that is related to "ranking", whether be it player ranking, map score ranking, map ranking process, in osu right now - suffers from major issues that need to be addressed. But no change will ever happen if people keep taking the approach of "learn to live with it". If you want to have improvements you need to be able to move on and not get stuck in the past.
I highly disagree with "It's more trouble than it's worth.". You should think in the exact opposite way. "Better late than never".
The more you delay it, the worse things get. Need to just stop at a point and make a clear decision to fix things.
DeletedUser_910779
There is more than enough information in this thread to keep old maps the way they are, some of them are:
- Older players would dislike coming back to this game to find out their map had been modified
- Tedious amount of work involved
- Decreases player diversity and freedom
- Part of osus history
- Some people enjoy the challenge
Labeling them is an idea I could agree with though, doing so shows newer players which maps to avoid (old mapping puts them off osu as somebody earlier stated) and it also would provide a way for veteran players or players who are just interested in osus history identify those maps easily.
- Older players would dislike coming back to this game to find out their map had been modified
- Tedious amount of work involved
- Decreases player diversity and freedom
- Part of osus history
- Some people enjoy the challenge
Labeling them is an idea I could agree with though, doing so shows newer players which maps to avoid (old mapping puts them off osu as somebody earlier stated) and it also would provide a way for veteran players or players who are just interested in osus history identify those maps easily.
Oh yeah, I go kill myself because I didn't joined osu! before 2011 to submit tons of one-diff-Mapsets QQqqQQqqQQAqo wrote:
You're missing the point. Keeping those maps ranked today is a double standard and a slap in the face for many mappers today whose maps are fun for many players but apparently they're "unrankable".
There is also this part of the Player/Community who does not give any Fuck about the Ranking. And please do not come with "But I do not talk about them." because they are not to be ignored.Aqo wrote:
Reasons to care:
1. Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
Wow, great, but ya know: Not every new player are like these 20 people. And by helping them to find eventually a newer Version of the Song where they played a older Map of it could avoid troubles. There is STILL the option to say "Hey, let's play some other Maps and some other songs". It's not like osu! got over 7,000 ranked Maps. And being picky is kinda bad in osu!. You don't know how often I searched a Song and ends that it is not mapped yet or mapped badly (however if ranked or not).Aqo wrote:
2. Old maps scare away new players. I don't care how many people say it's not true, I've personally known over 20 people who tried to get into osu, searched for songs that were popular around 2008~2010 (whether it was ops of animes that ran back then, or actually western music that no longer gets ranked today almost at all), ended up running into old ranked maps, and quickly thereafter quitting the game. The existence of those maps being ranked hurts the first impression this game gives to new players.
lel, give me examples. I've never read anything in the forum nor in chat.Aqo wrote:
Almost everything that revolves around "ranking" in this game is hugely biased and illogical, and the only reason it will never get fixed is because people are taking the "it was like this for a while and nobody is complaining, so it's fine", except people are complaining 24/7, at least until they realize they're speaking to a wall.
Dear god in heaven, why are you so sure that EVERY new player is going at the last pages to play old Maps?! They are enough player who start playing with the newest ranked Maps or playing something from 2010~2012 since osu! has there a lot of really famous Maps in this Time, obviously.Aqo wrote:
btw I'd just like to point one thing out, I think learning to play those weird timings that some old maps have does take a lot of skill (or at least, I tried and know how insanely hard it is in some cases) and respect the people who can actually perform very well on those maps. Winshley <3 your fullmod SS scores are some of the most impressive scores ever made for this game.
Yes, and I am not against this statement. But this is one of the reasons why to keep them how they are. They should tell us (Advanced/Beginner Player/Mapper) how osu! were in the past, how simple they kept their Maps and how simply the rules were.Aqo wrote:
The problem with old maps is that, mappers had no idea what they're doing.
Anyway, let's think about it: We got a One-Diff-Mapset to a Song. With no Background, BPM is okay, Offset could be fixed for like +/- 10 and (almost) no Hitsounding. Good, now we decide to put a decent Background to the Map for the optic, and fixing the Timing to be exact. So what we have so far is a Map with a Background, the correct Timing, still one Diff and still no Hitsounding. And tell me now if it does change the fact that the Map "sucks". Because if you want that Beginner does not play the awkward old Maps you had to change them directly like adding one more Diff, fixing Spacing, etc. and in other Words: You want the old Maps go away. And you know of course this won't work. Because of the reason which has been pointed enough times.
I mean, does the italian people comes to the Leaning Tower of Pisa and saying "Okay, we're going to build a straight version of the tower again and calling the other tower as 'The bad and old Tower of Pisa'"? Just because the tower sank to the ground due a base failure?
Wait, you're telling me you don't know about the new and improved Tower of Pisa?Stefan wrote:
I mean, does the italian people comes to the Leaning Tower of Pisa and saying "Okay, we're going to build a straight version of the tower again and calling the other tower as 'The bad and old Tower of Pisa'"? Just because the tower sank to the ground due a base failure?
Good maps become average or plain bad maps after modding which is why I mostly play unranked stuff. Only thing that should really matter is how the map plays along the song and that's it I don't care if it's overmapping or anything Mythologia's End is pure overmapping yet an epic map since it feels right. Most "perfect" maps are terrible and boring.
Lots of new players end up playing old shit because when this game came to existence you got everyone mapping super popular songs that came out that year or a long time ago. For instance when I joined this game I looked for Final Fantasy songs, Dragon Ball, and many old animes and I just found a bunch of unplayable, bad maps that didn't make any sense. Same with Evangelion maps, Sonic maps, etc. Maps older than 2009 (including 2009) are just too bad, and everything that came out on 2009 or before got mapped on that time, not everything got remapped, so there you go that's the reason why when you join this game and search for some stuff you're highly likely to face yourself playing shit maps.
Lots of new players end up playing old shit because when this game came to existence you got everyone mapping super popular songs that came out that year or a long time ago. For instance when I joined this game I looked for Final Fantasy songs, Dragon Ball, and many old animes and I just found a bunch of unplayable, bad maps that didn't make any sense. Same with Evangelion maps, Sonic maps, etc. Maps older than 2009 (including 2009) are just too bad, and everything that came out on 2009 or before got mapped on that time, not everything got remapped, so there you go that's the reason why when you join this game and search for some stuff you're highly likely to face yourself playing shit maps.
I'm in full support of 2007-2008, maybe even 2009 maps being put in a "Legacy" category and being touched up (given BGs and timing fixed, especially 2007.) Removing them outright would just be an insult, though - in a few years, a lot of stuff that's being ranked/approved today will probably be unrankable as well.
If people do refurbish maps, it should have a "Refurbished" tag along with the player who re-timed it.MillhioreF wrote:
I'm in full support of 2007-2008, maybe even 2009 maps being put in a "Legacy" category and being touched up (given BGs and timing fixed, especially 2007.) Removing them outright would just be an insult, though - in a few years, a lot of stuff that's being ranked/approved today will probably be unrankable as well.
Of course, players should not be allowed to touch the alignment of le circles.
There is no need for such a category. I would rather want to see the date of ranking inside the game on the beatmap though, that would be a huge hint already.
Not for new players. Unless you put a big sign saying THIS MAP IS PROBABLY BAD BECAUSE IT'S OLD it won't do.
Player discretion advised.Wishy wrote:
Not for new players. Unless you put a big sign saying THIS MAP IS PROBABLY BAD BECAUSE IT'S OLD it won't do.
Map is only suitable for pros.
Arigato!
I still think having some sort of a welcome tip message saying that newer maps are recommended to be played and just having dates on each map would solve pretty much anything, except for the human stupidity which would probably cause them to not notice then.
give them the warning if they have a playcount from under 5000 or they play an old map for the first time in their life. it would be pretty annoying for everyone else to get those warnings over and over again.
I think a warning such as the one located in the beatpacks should be located somewhere in the clients/download pages.
"Also note that it is highly recommended to download the packs from latest to earliest, since the oldest maps are of much lower quality than most recent maps."
"Also note that it is highly recommended to download the packs from latest to earliest, since the oldest maps are of much lower quality than most recent maps."
Agreed.
Don't mind me too much.
Oh. My. God. If we Taiko people would have the problem you osu-guys have, every second guy of our race would die because of the nervs he/she has killed.
I can just hope you are never coming up with such crap into our community.
Seriously, grow up and don't make out of everything that is working well or simple such a chaos of despair and hatred because you think it's in your personal view right. It's not the first time that such thread-processes appear(-> weheyhey, Ranking Criteria)
Are you that addicted to have for everything a discussion when you have the chance to?
I can just hope you are never coming up with such crap into our community.
Seriously, grow up and don't make out of everything that is working well or simple such a chaos of despair and hatred because you think it's in your personal view right. It's not the first time that such thread-processes appear(-> weheyhey, Ranking Criteria)
Are you that addicted to have for everything a discussion when you have the chance to?
^Best Post so far in this thread.
attitude like that is what keeps people away from taiko community.OnosakiHito wrote:
Don't mind me too much.Oh. My. God. If we Taiko people would have the problem you osu-guys have, every second guy of our race would die because of the nervs he/she has killed.
I can just hope you are never coming up with such crap into our community.
Seriously, grow up and don't make out of everything that is working well or simple such a chaos of despair and hatred because you think it's in your personal view right. It's not the first time that such thread-processes appear(-> weheyhey, Ranking Criteria)
Are you that addicted to have for everything a discussion when you have the chance to?
also i dont think old maps is problem because a lot of new players will download off the first page of songs
only a small portion of maps is really bad
How wrong.buny wrote:
attitude like that is what keeps people away from taiko community.
guess i'm the only 1 who doesn't want to be in a community where i cannot express opinion.
Taiko has several issues which have never been properly solved which is why it's a small community compared to standard. From the point they never did much about solving the problem where maps are either unplayable for newcomers or just too easy, even basic problems are still there because they don't bitch about it.
That's how you get a very small community.
That's how you get a very small community.
Maybe I understand it wrong, but do you mean that we, the Taiko player don't really care about the Mode itself?Wishy wrote:
From the point they never did much about solving the problem where maps are either unplayable for newcomers or just too easy, even basic problems are still there because they don't bitch about it.
No it's not that, I think he's trying to say that the taiko community as a whole is inflexible to change and doesn't really address its problems.Stefan wrote:
Maybe I understand it wrong, but do you mean that we, the Taiko player don't really care about the Mode itself?Wishy wrote:
From the point they never did much about solving the problem where maps are either unplayable for newcomers or just too easy, even basic problems are still there because they don't bitch about it.
Need to be reminded that maps older than mid-2010 has OD and AR not being able to be set independently, because both are at a single setting. This is also the reason why people chosen high OD when they actually wanted to set high AR alone.
Looking back at the original Nintendo DS game of "Elite Beat Agents" (the US version), the AR on last map and hardest difficulty of the game actually is around AR9. The mappers probably wanted to make maps similar to that because they wanted to make it "authentic".
EDIT: Another reason is that people might think that "high difficulty setting" = hard map, so they simply set it high anyway.
Looking back at the original Nintendo DS game of "Elite Beat Agents" (the US version), the AR on last map and hardest difficulty of the game actually is around AR9. The mappers probably wanted to make maps similar to that because they wanted to make it "authentic".
EDIT: Another reason is that people might think that "high difficulty setting" = hard map, so they simply set it high anyway.
oh how right you are sirbuny wrote:
attitude like that is what keeps people away from taiko community.
- OfftopicWishy wrote:
Taiko has several issues which have never been properly solved which is why it's a small community compared to standard. From the point they never did much about solving the problem where maps are either unplayable for newcomers or just too easy, even basic problems are still there because they don't bitch about it.
That's how you get a very small community.
Think about it once again what you said and who is actually preventing us going forward and why we are not flexible. But that's not the topic here.
Anyway, the point is that you guys are talking too much about unimportant stuff, which change has no real effect at all.
Or you just make everything way to complicated for stuff which works fine as it is.
- Your topic
My god, old maps have not the current standarts of nowadays maps. Let's die because of that.
They are still a part of osu's history so why don't you leave it how it is? You are worried that beginners play those maps first and that's why the maps should be changed? I doubt it that so many beginner are going to find the old maps that easy and I won't count the reasons for it. It is obviously.
Right now it is easier to find old maps by Achievements. Maybe start here first.
- Kitokofox topic
Not to mention that most of you guys are missing the topic. Kitokofox mentioned a bit different point than you do.
While he is suggesting to push up the maps style, you are discussing as in every other third topic about the mapping it-self.
Of course it is somehow conected to the current topic, but meter long posts, seriously? Before you discuss about this, it would be advicable to check out if ANYONE would even go to change the maps, else you are just discussing here to convince the other people of your own opinion.
I like your though if I'm honest Kitokofox. It is a bunch of work and I wonder if anyone would even do this. But I can at least say, that a map looks better when there is a nice style included. It is fact that playing a map with BG/SB is different as without and can give a bit better view of the map(it's a rule in real lifes advertisment for example).
Timing is a problem, but that's why we have this thread: p/282117
So I do wonder why no one is posting there if it is such a big issue. It would be the first step making the old maps 'better'.
Anyway, it's not like there were no good ideas mentioned before, like by lolcubes.
Wishy wrote:
Taiko has several issues which have never been properly solved which is why it's a small community compared to standard. From the point they never did much about solving the problem where maps are either unplayable for newcomers or just too easy, even basic problems are still there because they don't bitch about it.
my 2 cents
Maybe because standard maps shouldn't stick to taiko playability?
Maybe because Taiko appeared in 2008 in osu? (I'm unsure of that date)
Our community is smaller why ?
Because it's not the main mode here. It's one consequent mode who has struggled to have their own mapsets ranked.
Unplayable maps in Taiko mode, lel. Are you talking about those app/unranked maps or S.C.M.* ones?
Do I have to throw some cases of unplayable standard maps ? I've never seen you bitch about that, because you're better. I could bitch about Freedom Dive or MATZcore too, because I can't play them in standard.
Maybe because Taiko appeared in 2008 in osu? (I'm unsure of that date)
Our community is smaller why ?
Because it's not the main mode here. It's one consequent mode who has struggled to have their own mapsets ranked.
Unplayable maps in Taiko mode, lel. Are you talking about those app/unranked maps or S.C.M.* ones?
Do I have to throw some cases of unplayable standard maps ? I've never seen you bitch about that, because you're better. I could bitch about Freedom Dive or MATZcore too, because I can't play them in standard.
The main point of this thread is to improve the looks of old maps. I don't think this is a good idea either, some give us a funny challenge (Where some values could be set on CS for example) or to become nostalgic. Some of the rules set now didn't even exist at all back then. Those maps make us aware of those changes, it's a part of history. You'd not want to have fake data about your country's history, I'm sure.
*SCM = standard converted maps
The map ranking is not a nostalgia museum. It's a group of maps that provide ranking to be used for the purposes of this game's ranking mechanism.
There is no excuse to keep maps with blatantly glaring issues such as /bpm that doesn't even match the song/ ranked. No matter how you look at it, they're unfit for being ranked.
It seems like over the course of the thread people forgot what's the difference between ranked and unranked.
There is no excuse to keep maps with blatantly glaring issues such as /bpm that doesn't even match the song/ ranked. No matter how you look at it, they're unfit for being ranked.
It seems like over the course of the thread people forgot what's the difference between ranked and unranked.
Your Sight =/= everyone's sight =/= someone's sight
If you want it so much, why are you still talking with us and PMing peppy instead? If you think that the Maps before 2009/08 has to follow the current ranking criterias, then go write him a PM.
If you want it so much, why are you still talking with us and PMing peppy instead? If you think that the Maps before 2009/08 has to follow the current ranking criterias, then go write him a PM.
Aqo wrote:
There is no excuse to keep maps with blablastuff
that's only your opinion
Final conclusion.
We are allowed to re-time the map and hitsounds but not allowed to move the circles or change the difficulty/AR/OD, but allowed to change the CS.
Now can we lock this thread already?
We are allowed to re-time the map and hitsounds but not allowed to move the circles or change the difficulty/AR/OD, but allowed to change the CS.
Now can we lock this thread already?
It is still not your work. Such things may be considered map stealing and is punishable. Depends on the map creator though, if they allow it.Lily-Kun wrote:
Final conclusion.
We are allowed to re-time the map and hitsounds but not allowed to move the circles or change the difficulty/AR/OD, but allowed to change the CS.
Now can we lock this thread already?
Everyone is free to remap the songs. The current ones will stay as they are, and if you refer to certain other topics peppy stated that timings will eventually be fixed, one way or another.
This will now conclude this thread because eveything has been said already pretty much. If you want some features that you would want to have added about this matter, there is a more suitable forum for that: 4