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Older Map Refurbishing?

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83
Kitokofox
osu! Alumni
455 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Kitokofox
Well, I took a look at some of the older ranked maps in osu! and thought that they could look nicer with a few small things here.
So, I thought some of us could take time to refurbish these old maps a little, like give them more accurate timing, maybe a nice BG, or a storyboard even! We won't have to derank them, they will still remain their legacy with their mapping style and difficulty. They'll just look nicer along with the more improved osu! of today. :)

But yeah, I don't know if anyone else is with me on this, or who would help do this sort of thing. I mean, there's a lot of maps made by various people, it's not exactly possible to take someone's map and help improve it to clean up osu! because the maps simply aren't made by us. We need permission first I guess..
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama
What happens if the map maker is no longer with us? Can someone else take ownership?
Jesss
814 posts
Joined November 2008
Jesss

Kitokofox wrote:

Well, I took a look at some of the older ranked maps in osu! and thought that they could look nicer with a few small things here.
So, I thought some of us could take time to refurbish these old maps a little, like give them more accurate timing, maybe a nice BG, or a storyboard even! We won't have to derank them, they will still remain their legacy with their mapping style and difficulty. They'll just look nicer along with the more improved osu! of today. :)

But yeah, I don't know if anyone else is with me on this, or who would help do this sort of thing. I mean, there's a lot of maps made by various people, it's not exactly possible to take someone's map and help improve it to clean up osu! because the maps simply aren't made by us. We need permission first I guess..
Instead of that...it's better to remap the song with an entirely new difficulty,new map author, etc submitting as a new beatmap...and if your idea takes importance, then deranking would still be imperative to make changes and check quality control for any beatmap.
Loves
446 posts
Joined December 2012
Loves
Its part of osu! legacy to leave maps prior to 2010 as they are.
Even though they lack the qualities of todays top maps, they serve as a reminder of how much this game has progressed.
Kitokofox
osu! Alumni
455 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Kitokofox
I didn't know there was a legacy rule here.

But it was just a thought I was throwing out there, that it would be nice to have a cleaner osu!. And if there are mappers out there who still have their after-2010 maps that could use even a slight improvement, like an offset change or a nice BG, they probably could take a little time to do that. I mean, there's ways to change up the map without the need of modding processes, like making the background not blend in with the notes, fixing the BPM a little..

Perhaps I'm barking into a gulch by suggestign all this, but it's worth a thought at least..
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.

~Moving on is hard~

the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass
Some people just have different opinions and Aqo doesn't seem to understand that.
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync

Aqo wrote:

Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.

~Moving on is hard~

the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
how would you feel if you came back to this game several years later to find out that your work was changed without you knowing?
Vish024
2,640 posts
Joined December 2010
Vish024

Lily-Kun wrote:

Its part of osu! legacy to leave maps prior to 2010 as they are.
Even though they lack the qualities of todays top maps, they serve as a reminder of how much this game has progressed.
Could not agree more with this. These "older maps" are a part of osu!'s history and don't deserve to be tampered with. If you don't like them or enjoy them then the solution is simple: don't play them.

Aqo wrote:

Give up Kitokofox, I already tried. For some awkward reason people want to keep those awful maps ranked.

~Moving on is hard~

the "keep them ranked since people worked hard to score on them" argument doesn't stand anymore either because the current ranking system makes old scores progressively lose value, so their value is moot anyway. Whatever skills you gained from retrying those maps stays with you, and the scores themselves are already losing their significance. And "those maps are still good" doesn't work for the completely off timed ones, which is plenty.
We'd appreciate it if you'd kindly go be narcissistic elsewhere.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

Sync wrote:

how would you feel if you came back to this game several years later to find out that your work was changed without you knowing?
Maybe I'm weird but, had I seen old maps of mine that are no longer up to par with today's standards getting unranked I'd be fine with that.
In fact I've seen several other mappers openly wishing and writing in chat that they'd wish they had an option to delete some of their older ranked maps, as they believe their quality no longer represents mapping today.

That said, I respect different people's different views on the matter, but if you're going to be objective on this then it's a double edged standard when you're keeping those old maps ranked and meanwhile forcing current time mappers to do certain adjustments to their maps or else not allowing them to get ranked. It's really cute to say that this is being "unfair" to people of the past but, at the moment, you're being unfair to people of the present.
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes
let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
MillhioreF
Pro Tester
5,004 posts
Joined July 2011
MillhioreF

JappyBabes wrote:

let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
you dont HAVE to play the maps if you dont like them.
just leave them be and playing something you do enjoy
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat
This thread makes me sad
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Only thing I don't support about old maps is that some newbies join the game, search for some songs, end up playing 2008 maps and then quit because "wtf this doesn't make sense". Not making this up or just assumiing, I have several friends who tried out this game and quit, tried again a few years months and they were like "oh maps are way better now, couldn't play this at all lol it was so bad, these new maps are better". Even newbies can understand a map is bad when it is bad timed or doesn't make much sense.

Maybe make something so that doesn't happen? Remember only people who may be actually troubled about old maps bad quality are those who don't really understand that they don't represent the game at all.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

silmarilen wrote:

you dont HAVE to play the maps if you dont like them.
Again, the same could be said for maps today.
Certain modding for the recent ranked map 'The Creator' has made a lot of long-time fav'ers of the map from its time in pending no longer like it. Why was this modding forced upon the map? If you don't like it, they don't play it. The map WAS fine, but for some reason it wasn't allowed to get ranked.

So, mappers today have to take the hose? But you "respect" old mappers, even that half of what they did wasn't even correct? I'm not talking about the famous old maps that come to your mind when you think of old maps, a ton of old maps suffer from serious issues on a very basic level like /bpm and offset that doesn't even match the song/ and yet apparently it's "fine because it's part of osu's history".

What.

If you want to be right, then don't take double standards.

Wishy wrote:

Only thing I don't support about old maps is that some newbies join the game, search for some songs, end up playing 2008 maps and then quit because "wtf this doesn't make sense".
also +1 to this. this is soooooo true. I know more than 20 different people who tried osu and quit it simply because they started the game by looking in search for songs that they knew, ended up finding old maps for them and playing those, and quickly dropping interest in the game.
A veteran player has no issue finding maps when they're unranked, so if an old ranked map gets unranked it won't stop you from still playing it or hosting it in mp and so on, but why does it still deserve to be ranked when it -doesn't even meet ranking criteria- ?

JappyBabes wrote:

let's compromise and let tag be app/rankable again.
It would be nice if certain maps were moved to a different criteria for "old ranked, no longer today ranked", maybe not call it "Approved" but instead "Legacy" maps or whatever.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue
why change something that doesn't need change? most people won't play old maps, and those who do are either determined to play them or they have fun. everyone is happy. why is there even a discussion?
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
Lapis-
407 posts
Joined June 2011
Lapis-
If you find a old song, just remap it with new diff's that match 2013's standards? As we obviously see, 2 beatmaps+ for one song is common practice, so you could just remap the song and thus have 2 versions, the old and the new? Making everyone happy because old maps still get to stay, and we have a more modern beat map of the song?

Just my 2C
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

theowest wrote:

At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
This is actually possible and would be a nice idea.
deadbeat
osu! Alumni
9,218 posts
Joined June 2009
deadbeat

theowest wrote:

At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
why? most players that would play old maps would just dim them anyway :/
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

theowest wrote:

At least adding in a background wouldn't hurt that much. As long as everyone can agree on that it's a decent one.
I actually agree with this.

But if you're going to do that to maps, why not also fix their bpms and offsets while you're at it? At least fix the bpm / everything related to red timing sections, since offset is apparently fixable through some online global trick.
theowest
osu! Alumni
6,891 posts
Joined January 2009
theowest
Let's just hope the replay data can change with it.
p/2074532
p/2075428
Sieg
3,981 posts
Joined February 2012
Sieg

Aqo wrote:

maybe not call it "Approved" but instead "Legacy" maps or whatever.
This is actually sounds good.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Aqo wrote:

Certain modding for the recent ranked map 'The Creator' has made a lot of long-time fav'ers of the map from its time in pending no longer like it.
Please for the sake of everything that is not wrong, don't talk about things you don't know about. Even today that map still has a couple of 1/4 streams which shouldn't have ever been ranked because it's wrong in both technical and musical sense (that song is NOT 280 bpm). I already stated in the map's thread that such a map should not aim for rank just because of this problem and the people decided to push for rank anyway. If you can't understand that, then I really don't know what to say.

As for the on topic, everyone is free to re-map any song that is already ranked. Leaving old maps be is a good thing, because there are people who still like them. Going here and saying that such maps scare away the new people isn't that correct, because I don't know how would the new guys search for specificially old maps because all the map lists kinda point towards the latest ranked ones. Several years have passed so even if you somehow end up in the middle of the maps list you still get pretty good maps. I mean take a look at the number after the /s/, when I made my first map (start of 2011) it was around 25000, today it's nearing 80000. That's a LOT of maps since 2011 until today, which basically means that 2008~2010 maps don't even make a quarter of all the maps that are around.
Also there are new trends active now as well, especially if you consider anime/games, since newer stuff is far more popular than stuff from several years ago.

tldr; it's fine, if you want to make old maps better, feel free to remap them youself.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny
it's fun playing maps that aren't up to todays standard
Bass
1,846 posts
Joined January 2009
Bass
And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.

Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Kanye West
2,222 posts
Joined July 2011
Kanye West

Bass wrote:

And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.

Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Same with this map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/3435

Actually it's one of my favorites.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
When I started to play I actually ended with old maps from 2007 or '08 - '09
Either I downloaded the first mappacks (because I thought that might be a good idea if i want to play all of them) or I actually searched for songs that I liked

I had and still have alot of fun playing those old maps. I like trying to find the best local offset and getting a high acc. rather than today where you can DT, HR or atleast HD the Hard on first try.
In the past more maps of songs that I liked got ranked. Sometimes I even re-map them just for fun.

As stated already just leave them alone and move on.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

bomber34 wrote:

I had and still have alot of fun finding local offsets or re-mapping broken parts of maps
i cri
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34

Aqo wrote:

i cri
good for you
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

bomber34 wrote:

Aqo wrote:

i cri
good for you
Not saying it's wrong for you to enjoy that, but that pretty much shows that *something* in those old maps is different from today's maps.
Froslass
Beatmap Nominator
9,342 posts
Joined July 2008
Froslass

Aqo wrote:

bomber34 wrote:

good for you
Not saying it's wrong for you to enjoy that, but that pretty much shows that *something* in those old maps is different from today's maps.
aand?
keyword: FUN

the maps are bad/terrible on today's standards? of course they are.
however, some people have different standards, and these maps satisfy their needs more than the same-as-always maps from nowadays.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,425 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Sync's Argument is one of the points why I am against of this.

I also think that Maps without Backgrounds should have one, just for the look, yh. But honestly, that should be all. Nothing else should be changed, like the BPM or whatever else. If people are having troubles with the BPM (and they're right, just the Offset is not that good), they should poke someone to get the correct Offset or should post it here: t/13795

Aaaand then, if we start to fix the BGs, then I am pretty damn sure that some people are coming and wants.. a fixed BPM, for the sake of accuracy. Then, even a Video (because the Song got a MV) or even worse, they want to add some stuff more like SBs, Skins and whatever you can add. The thing is just: Let these maps like they're. Did people had the variety of options and setting what we got today? No. These maps are also an example of the things how osu! was in the past.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
really. why does this bother you so much?
ampzz
ampzz
This whole thing makes me laugh.

I wasn't even around when the maps which were made in an editor nowhere near as easy to use as today's is with all the bells and whistles, yet I still admire what they've done with all that was available at the time.

I still enjoy playing the older insanes as they provide a unique challenge over all of the generic CS4, AR8-9 maps of today which most generally start looking like each other lately.

The only thing which 'could' use the touch-up would be the BPM / offset corrections with the necessary re-snapping and slider length changes to cater for them but whatever, they're still fun regardless.

It's not like it takes a lot of effort to create your own beatmap set for a song which has older variations, heck I swore I read somewhere that if you dislike a song's map/s to then go and create one yourself. Since obviously some people don't particularly mind having more of the same song having a few differing mapsets for it.
Tanzklaue
1,151 posts
Joined December 2010
Tanzklaue

silmarilen wrote:

really. why does this bother you so much?
aqo doesn't like fun.


next he wants rocks implemented.
buny
3,435 posts
Joined March 2012
buny

Tanzklaue wrote:

silmarilen wrote:

really. why does this bother you so much?
aqo doesn't like fun.


next he wants rocks implemented.
looking forward to these rocks.
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
But only if those Rocks provide AR12
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Having some "Legacy" thing to move old, terrible maps that don't make any sense and have terrible timing would be good. Would make them somewhat special, since even if they are most people (including new players) don't have fun playing bad maps that don't make sense with bad timing.

I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Wishy wrote:

Having some "Legacy" thing to move old, terrible maps that don't make any sense and have terrible timing would be good. Would make them somewhat special, since even if they are most people (including new players) don't have fun playing bad maps that don't make sense with bad timing.

I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
How about a notification when an old map is first loaded (each map's .osu records what format version it uses, so this should be possible - most offending maps are v6 or earlier, for example)? Like so:

This map is old and may not follow modern ranking standards.
Maybe bottom right-hand corner for older users and a black, obvious one for newbies. If they had "This map is old..." flashing across their screen I'm pretty sure they'd get what it's implying pretty quickly. i.e. "This map is old and, as such, may or may not suck."

EDIT: Such a thing would go away after the user's been around a couple of weeks, of course, for people's sanity.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,425 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru

Stefan wrote:

Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
I've already remapped & ranked a new version my most played old map, though. :(
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy

Stefan wrote:

Instead of making it so confusing, mapping it by yourself is way easier, srsly.
That doesn't matter since people will still get into those old maps.
Oinari-sama
osu! Alumni
3,403 posts
Joined July 2010
Oinari-sama

Wishy wrote:

I would have dropped osu! if I had played some of those very old maps when I just started playing, good thing my friends recommended me good maps.
Lucky you. The friend who introduced me to osu doesn't have such a great taste =.= I actually quit osu twice.

Back on topic: I can start to see a viable option taking shape after so many discussions in this thread. I support leaving the old maps untouched, but giving them a "legacy" status in a form of a stamp in game AND a 1-line legacy warning when searched online. Something to this effect should work:

"Legacy Warning - This map is OLD! New players may find it hard to follow when compared to today's mapping standard."
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

jesus1412 wrote:

+support pls

---

fun experiment, only for brave people who are willing to use a pending slot:
1. find an old map that is not famous (i.e. not something like savage garden)
2. download it
3. notepad edit the mapper name to your own, change nothing else
4. upload it as your own map
5. try to rank it

in fact go ahead and PM a BAT saying you have a map that's ready for rank and needs a bubble. see what they say.
Jinxy
2,777 posts
Joined February 2009
Jinxy

Aqo wrote:

fun experiment, only for brave people who are willing to use a pending slot:
1. find an old map that is not famous (i.e. not something like savage garden)
2. download it
3. notepad edit the mapper name to your own, change nothing else
4. upload it as your own map
5. try to rank it

in fact go ahead and PM a BAT saying you have a map that's ready for rank and needs a bubble. see what they say.
You're missing the point, no one said that the old maps are of the same quality as current maps, they just said they didn't want them suddenly changed and gave reasons for it.

Personally retimings would be pretty good, since they directly affect if a map's playable. The other things aren't as big of a problem and I do like the fact that they show how mapping (placements and such) has progressed.
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
You're missing the point. Keeping those maps ranked today is a double standard and a slap in the face for many mappers today whose maps are fun for many players but apparently they're "unrankable". Those old maps may be fun for some people, and the only argument they have to keep those maps ranked is that "they're still fun for me", but if that is what's keeping them ranked, then why can't maps today that large portions of the community enjoy TODAY get ranked? Why are certain restrictions -which are entirely opinionated- are placed upon how a mapper is allowed to design his map?

For example why are overmapped triplets that don't follow anything in the music fine on TV size anime ops, but not fine on a high diff map? Saying "it doesn't follow the music" and calling that the reason is just showing how biased you're being. Many players enjoy overmapping and if it fits the mood and feel of the song and done in a good way modders should have no place to tell the mapper that his map is unrankable because of it.

Why is OD9 fine on a 120bpm map fine but OD7 not fine on a 280bpm map? Is there any reason here other than personal preference? I think people don't even realize how stupidly biased and inconsistent the current ranking system is. And yet with all of this, old maps are fine since "why do you care" and "it's still fun for me" and "it would be unfair to old mappers, who quit the game years ago and are never going to return". what a joke.

Reasons to care:
1. Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
2. Old maps scare away new players. I don't care how many people say it's not true, I've personally known over 20 people who tried to get into osu, searched for songs that were popular around 2008~2010 (whether it was ops of animes that ran back then, or actually western music that no longer gets ranked today almost at all), ended up running into old ranked maps, and quickly thereafter quitting the game. The existence of those maps being ranked hurts the first impression this game gives to new players.

Almost everything that revolves around "ranking" in this game is hugely biased and illogical, and the only reason it will never get fixed is because people are taking the "it was like this for a while and nobody is complaining, so it's fine", except people are complaining 24/7, at least until they realize they're speaking to a wall.
Winshley
osu! Alumni
2,384 posts
Joined May 2011
Winshley

Kanye West wrote:

Bass wrote:

And they are giving a lot of pp, mainly because there are players like WW/Kubu/wobeinimacao on leaderboards, and many records are made with such low acc + not many people play them.

Would be better to clean these no mod scores from time when algorythm was different yet. Seeing Aenna being #1 on https://osu.ppy.sh/b/41197?m=0 makes me giggle.
Same with this map. https://osu.ppy.sh/s/3435

Actually it's one of my favorites.
Inb4 White Wolf actually wanted to keep that score. :P

Actually, there are some people who prefer keeping old score, though the prerson includes old player who have old scores.

As for this issue, I'm currently am being indifferent, though I do lean towards "not changing everything". I still find old maps satisfying. It's just to show that old maps can be challenging sometimes, especially on getting good Accuracy on wrong timing.

I would have to agree with this though, mainly because I have old maps listed on my Best Performance list:

Aqo wrote:

Right now old maps are a main resource of PP farming. Nearly all players in this game who lack the skill (yes there I said it, people are going to hate me, not giving a shit) to play maps that are actually contested by competitive players gain their rank by farming old maps that make no sense and getting top ranks on them, on the sole basis of "nobody else wants to play those maps", which makes them easy to top rank.
Additionally, remapping actually doesn't change much when it comes to Beatmap Pack achievements, and people who cared about those achievements might still continue to complain. For example, this has been included into the Beatmap Pack achievement despite a better mapset exists.

I could have been complaining about not getting #1 because of old score, but I started to live on it anyway.
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