I've been throwing the idea around with peppy to implement a DDR special mode into osu!

1. If this idea becomes reality, what sort of features would this mode need to be successful?
2. What can we do to avoid some of the mistakes made by Flash Flash Revolution and Stepmania?
3. How do you think osu! mods will affect the DDR experience? Improve it? Destroy it?

Really, any thoughts at all on the matter (constructive ones), would be quite pleasant.

Cheers!

This has been suggested before, I say the same thing every time: We should have one bemani-style "button mode" with possibly a variable number of buttons. I don't want to have a whole bunch of different game modes that are all basically the same, so it'd be best to get it right in one shot, and not base it so strictly on any one game

I'm not entirely sure. One of the best things about osu! (and all of it's game modes) is that there is no other internet game of it's kind. At least not that I know of. When it comes to DDR, there's numerous PC-ports to the game which are done pretty well and I don't see much reason to compete with them. Flashflashrevolution is a good game, as is stepmania. osu! is an entirely different game than ddr and I couldn't really picture any way to simply port osu! maps into DDR-format, without having DDR-specific difficulties (in which case, you should go create a simfile for SM)

Though I do like FFR. Which is why my vote was for the third option. Peppy can do anything.

It's not really to compete, it's to play songs that are in osu! in an osu! like environment with our osu! buddies.

I really don't want to compete

LuigiHann wrote:

This has been suggested before, I say the same thing every time: We should have one bemani-style "button mode" with possibly a variable number of buttons. I don't want to have a whole bunch of different game modes that are all basically the same, so it'd be best to get it right in one shot, and not base it so strictly on any one game

This is a good idea, we could take it in THAT direction with DDR along for the ride. I'm not opposed.

Be cool if it had a mode, that plays like guitaroo man.

here's a video, for an example - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHLGg-GS5Fc

Is it going to work from the same .osu files? If so, and peppy (or anyone) can come up with a good algorithm for how to create the steps from the .osu, I'm cautiously optimistic. It would get us a broader userbase, but with it we'd have people complaining for the various features SM and DDR have. If it's going to require a system all of its own, I vote no. In either case, keep osu! (the main game) the focus of osu! (the community).

I don't think it would need anything terribly special to be implemented. A decent scoring system (possibly including more than three levels of scoring?...) and the overall basic gameplay features should suffice. Not much more than taiko and CtB.

And osu! is already avoiding SM/FFR's biggest downfall (from what I know of them): quality control.

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If it can be implemented without too much trouble, then sure, I'm all for it! I used to play stepmania all the time but the control is ugh. Plus we'd already have tons of songs from the current maps so there'd be no extra work for regular players.

+Support <3

osu! would probably grow substantially by implementing this, drawing in a huge bemani crowd (is that what they're called?). Things would be rough for a little bit, but if osu! could benefit from it in the long run, I think it'd be worth it.

As for the generation of SMfiles from .osu files, it's probably not too difficult a task.

Rolled wrote:

I'm not entirely sure. One of the best things about osu! (and all of it's game modes) is that there is no other internet game of it's kind. At least not that I know of.

I agree with Rolled. There are already ports that have been made, refined and already do their job. FFR does have quality control - they have a panel of judges that determine what gets into the game (even if the files still suck, but I'm not a judge so I don't care).

StepMania can't be compared to osu! in terms of quality control because it's not a single central community. Unlike osu! which has a single centralized and official community, StepMania doesn't. While SM does have an official forum, many many more unofficial ones exist (many of which are larger than the official forum anyway) where most of the elite players reside. Drawing a parallel there is pointless.

LuigiHann wrote:

We should have one bemani-style "button mode" with possibly a variable number of buttons.

As long as it isn't modelled after an actual Bemani game, this sounds feasible. There's already SM for DDR/PIU/PPPP, Lunatic Rave for IIDX/DJMax, O2Mania for O2Jam (even though it's not a Bemani game, that's not the point).



tl;dr - An osu! unique button smashing mode would be fine with me, but specifically something like DDR or IIDX would be completely pointless because there are already programs that do that, and do it better. In the case it's an original game, +1 support. Otherwise no.

I thought of this too a little while back, haha. I like the idea. +1
FFR was bunches of fun, too bad the website got all this profile shit and started to become like Myspace. The community sucked BALLS too, which is one of the reasons why I left.

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LuigiHann wrote:

This has been suggested before, I say the same thing every time: We should have one bemani-style "button mode" with possibly a variable number of buttons. I don't want to have a whole bunch of different game modes that are all basically the same, so it'd be best to get it right in one shot, and not base it so strictly on any one game

Yes.

hey guys we should have pippi as our little 3d dancer like the other ddr games
but we need an off button

Oh, god, yes please.

The only issue surrounding this that I can see is that DDR and osu! are very different, in that osu! requires only one input, while DDR, technically, can have 4. Osu beatmaps converted to DDR stepcharts would make for very easy stepcharts, since no jumps or hands would be there. I think something like the "addition" mods in Stepmania may be in order.

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wait wait wait wait wait

do you mean inserting a special mode (like taiko and ctb) as DDR? if so I FULLY SUPPORT TO THE MAX WWWW

I'd prefer osu to stay a Ouendan based game and not a compilation of different rhythm games. so what next a rhythm heaven mode i know rhythm heaven has differed game modes

qlum wrote:

I'd prefer osu to stay a Ouendan based game and not a compilation of different rhythm games. so what next a rhythm heaven mode i know rhythm heaven has differed game modes

osu is ouedan/taiko/catch the beat.
so its already 3 games in one.
I thought about asking for a DDR mode for a long time but never saw a chance of it to be actually approved.
It would be awesome though.

Guys, I think we're jumping on the gun here.

If ever we implement this mode, what benefits will it bring? I'm already seeing "we'll get more people to sign up!", but the problem is osu! has been quite unique in its gameplay. We will get a lot of people by doing this, but it'll be because they signed up for the DDR feature, which I honestly think hinders osu!'s gameplay.

It's more of a "this game has DDR, so it's cool" thing. It's almost stereotypical to think that adding a DDR-like mode will be good.

I agree with vytail.

What's next, Frets on osu! Foo!

On another note, even if something like "addition mods" (equivalent to StepMania's quick, stomp, echo, etc.) files would still not be particularly difficult for anybody who doesn't suck at StepMania. Songs that come to mind are songs like Marisa and Kanbu, but assuming a conversion algorithm came to light that prevented retarded jacks from coming up (for those of you who don't play SM, something like LLLLLLL or UUUUUUU) even those would be an easy AAA.

Making maps specifically to be played on a mode like this would then just start emulating SM/FFR. Quite frankly not many BAT members here, if any at all, would be good judges for these particular files because those rhythm games may not be their forte. "osu! has quality control!!!!!1!1one" then becomes a moot point.

Honestly, I can't see this working out in osu!'s favour. I'm a veteran DDR/ITG/PIU/FFR/SM player, and I like osu! for what it is right now and I personally (very strongly) say nay to this.

strager wrote:

I agree with vytail.

What's next, Frets on osu! Foo!

that would be great :>
Actually i always saw osu as a multi game client.
It just happened to start off as ouedan/eba game.
I wouldn't mind more modes since not a single of those other rythm games
have a great system like osu.
Whats wrong with having more people come?
Afraid of getting your game taken over? :>

on the other hand, Xiao is absolutely right.
For players like me (i played 2 years Stepmania), its boring.
You'd have to create maps especially for the DDR mode.

What i want though, are more original game modes.
Like Jump the beat or whatever? xD

Actually, more than a few members of BAT have quite a bit of DDR/ITG/SM/FFR experience.

As for what you said strager, I don't want Frets of Fire personally, but that's not really the issue. Also, why would you simulate a simulator? I don't know how this thread became about implementing other games?

It's not like I'm suggesting turning osu! into stepmania or FFR. In fact, it's the opposite. I want a DDR-LIKE special mode that has the same multiplayer capability as other osu! special modes.

Skyripper wrote:

I don't know how this thread became about implementing other games?

LuigiHann wrote:

We should have one bemani-style "button mode" with possibly a variable number of buttons ... and not base it so strictly on any one game

Rolled wrote:

When it comes to DDR, there's numerous PC-ports to the game which are done pretty well and I don't see much reason to compete with them.

Xiaounlimited wrote:

An osu! unique button smashing mode would be fine with me, but specifically something like DDR or IIDX would be completely pointless because there are already programs that do that, and do it better.

And ultimately to answer your question,

vytalibus wrote:

It's more of a "this game has DDR, so it's cool" thing. It's almost stereotypical to think that adding a DDR-like mode will be good.

Replace "DDR" with "Guitar Hero", "Rock Band", "Guitar Freaks", whatever other rhythm game you want to throw down on the table.

...though it really does apply more to DDR than anything else (since it's probably the most popular rhythm game in North America known amongst non-rhythm gamers). I'd just really like to see a real fleshed out original game. Nothing else.

This idea IMO is half-baked and done to death by tons of devs and as amazing as peppy is, I doubt he could do more with it than everybody else has.

Vyt was ultimately missing the point. No one really wants to add something to osu! just to make it popular. We don't need popular. If I made anyone think that's why I want it implemented; that is false.

I want it because it's damn fun.

Well, whatever happens happens. If this gets enough support and peppy says okay, all the more power to you. Would be nice to have a mode I don't suck in, anyway.

I've had my say.

Skyripper wrote:

why would you simulate a simulator?

While the FoF client may be fine and dandy, there's absolutely no sense of quality control to the charts whatsoever. It'd basically be "Frets on Fire but with a different appearance and a clear list of well-made charts"

Skyripper wrote:

I want it because it's damn fun.

Then why not just play whatever DDR clone there is?

Echo wrote:

Skyripper wrote:

I want it because it's damn fun.

Then why not just play whatever DDR clone there is?

Osu is cooler

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stepmania's code is public, so if you want to integrate it with osu or whatever you can just grab the source, modify the hell out of it, and uh...

Would you use hitsounds (like in taiko) for knowing what's the arrow's position? Why not just have control quality over sm/dwi simfiles? I think osu doesn't need to have more gamemodes to mantain.

Also, Stepmania Online, you can have your very own modified server fron source as the stepmania client you'd design.

Popularity contests for the game that has moar gamemodes isn't good at all imo.

Agkaemon wrote:

Would you use hitsounds (like in taiko) for knowing what's the arrow's position?

wtf?

I imagine it would be something similar to CtB's coding. Well not really but someone might see what I'm getting at.

if this would be implemented the map charts would be slightly retarded for some maps. marisa for instance, are you planning to hit that stream of 1/4 sliders (freeze notes in this situation i assume) all with one button seeing as most of them are the same combo.

if this would ever be implemented it wouldn't work like taiko does. atleast i dont think it would. it would require a unique editor just for this DDR-alike mode (i have made a couple of BMS charts before, its a pain in the ass). i fully support it, but the time it would take to create this would be hard i think.

personally I'd have the number of columns be based on the circle size, and have a button for each column, and have it just be based on their position on the screen.

YES!

I love Stepmania,and I'd love it even MORE if osu! and SM were combined


Also,If you could import your own StepMania simfiles like the original download,that'd be awesome. :>

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^ everything up here is good stuff

Xiaounlimited wrote:

Nazo wrote:

Also,If you could import your own StepMania simfiles like the original download,that'd be awesome. :>

CheeseWarlock wrote:

And osu! is already avoiding SM/FFR's biggest downfall (from what I know of them): quality control.

lol

I meant import the songs you already have from SM. Gah,I gotta specify.

To address the step generation issue. I think we should be able to make ddr specific difficulties, like taiko, but should have a system to do a one time generation of steps for each and every beatmap.

Skyripper wrote:

To address the step generation issue. I think we should be able to make ddr specific difficulties, like taiko, but should have a system to do a one time generation of steps for each and every beatmap.

Taiko is also one-time? If you mean there is no random element? As there should not be anyway.

I highly agree with luigi's approach to this - making a bemani standard which can be skinned to act like any game with flying notes.

peppy wrote:

I highly agree with luigi's approach to this - making a bemani standard which can be skinned to act like any game with flying notes.

How many keys would be used? Would the amount be adjustable? Making a "Bemani standard" is a bit vague when their games vary between 4-9 keys. 12 if you include JuBeat.

peppy wrote:

Taiko is also one-time? If you mean there is no random element? As there should not be anyway.

Yeah, that's what I meant.

peppy wrote:

I highly agree with luigi's approach to this - making a bemani standard which can be skinned to act like any game with flying notes.

Would this be in a sister program or a special mode including bemani standards?

Working in the opposite direction, would it be at all possible for a converstion of Stepmania files to osu! files?

My osu! library is just about is full as my stepmania one, and I would personally love an unranked mode where stepmania files could be read by osu! and converted to playable beatmaps.

If anyone else is interested in the idea, I have a few ideas as to how things could be converted.

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peppy wrote:

I'm not making any game apart from osu!. Get that clear in your mind.

Good.

peppy wrote:

Also to the person who said SM's code is open: no I will not use someone else's code. The osu! special mode system is already mature enough to add it without much effort, and definitely without using someone else's codebase.

That code is incredibly convoluted and in c++ anyway. Original coding is the way to go.

i like where this thread is going

vytalibus wrote:

If ever we implement this mode, what benefits will it bring? I'm already seeing "we'll get more people to sign up!", but the problem is osu! has been quite unique in its gameplay. We will get a lot of people by doing this, but it'll be because they signed up for the DDR feature, which I honestly think hinders osu!'s gameplay.

This is a point that I want to reiterate. Even though personally I would find it cool to have everything in one game, I see that this move might actually harm the osu community. As a dance gamer myself I know very well that all international dance game communities (all international DDR communities, all international ITG communities, etc; not talking about local communities since those don't matter here) are utter crap currently. If you make a game mode that pulls that crowd here then you'll be the host to their bullshit for the future. I don't know what the situation is with Guitar Hero/Frets on Fire/etc etc communities though, so it might not be 100% bad.

Also, to beat all of the dance games and other bemani simulators out there (OpenITG being the best engine currently) you'd really have to have a lot of stuff, pulling away from development of the main osu game, which to me seems like a bad idea, considering that osu is unique while there are already a lot of "bemani" games out there.

If however peppy you decide to go for it, remember that I'm definitely willing to help with many aspects and you know I can.

Agkaemon wrote:

stepmania's code is public, so if you want to integrate it with osu or whatever you can just grab the source, modify the hell out of it, and uh...

No, don't touch that code base. It's a mess and a crappy mess too.

peppy wrote:

Also to the person who said SM's code is open: no I will not use someone else's code. The osu! special mode system is already mature enough to add it without much effort, and definitely without using someone else's codebase.

Your making a huge favor to yourself there.

Agkaemon wrote:

Also, Stepmania Online, you can have your very own modified server fron source as the stepmania client you'd design.

Just forget about all that StepMania stuff already. It's a mess, no one wants to touch it, and no one will be happy if they need to. Even the SM devs know this. Osu's online system beats StepMania Online with it's hands and legs tied up.

I think this is an awesome idea; I can't tell you how many times I've gone to Bemanistyle and looked for simfiles of songs I found on osu! that I liked and realized there are none, or how disappointed I am by the lack of DDR/ITG song beatmaps here. So something like this would be a good medium even if it doesn't have to be as fleshed out as SM.

Just a few things for discussion though:

-Scoring: One of the big parts of osu! is keeping a combo, that's how you get the most points, and if you miss one somewhere in the middle you get a significantly lower amount of points. In ITG a miss will break your combo but you can still score well, so will scoring in this special mode be closer to osu! or closer to ITG/DDR?

-Timing windows: ITG has...6 timing windows? osu! basically has 4. And other rhythm games have differing amounts too. If this mode were implemented I'd assume it'd be perfect (300)/great (100)/good (50)/miss but maybe not.

-Arrows: Will the notes for this be the circular beats that normal osu! uses or will they be arrows or the beat things like in O2Jam/IIDX/GF/DM? Also, in DDR/ITG the arrows are colored differently based on if they're 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 notes, etc., would this mode just have all monocolor notes or one color for each column (similar to Pump It Up) or what?

-Randomness of charts: One of the worst things about mods in DDR/ITG is how ridiculous they can get, especially if you play on Random/Blender (or whatever they're called, I don't use them so I might have the wrong terms). I hope there will be an algorithm or something in place to prevent stupid shit from being generated in the chart, because it sucks (and sometimes is practically impossible) if you're playing on blender and you get something like this:



I dunno if anything I said has already been addressed because I read the thread last night but didn't reply and can't remember all of what was in it. :x

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Skyripper wrote:

also, I need to map summer XD

omg yes plz

Edit: Oh yeah, and what about spinners? I know you said that people should be able to make their own but for existing charts what would happen with spinners? Would they turn into rolls or something?

Rather than make DDR into osu!, why not think about making a mode based off DDR and similar games? I thought that's what the original request was about, anyway.

strager wrote:

Rather than make DDR into osu!, why not think about making a mode based off DDR and similar games? I thought that's what the original request was about, anyway.

That was what I thought the whole topic was about ?_?

Unless somewhere it deviated into something else somewhere along the way and I didn't realize it

Skyripper wrote:

MegaManEXE wrote:

-Scoring: One of the big parts of osu! is keeping a combo, that's how you get the most points, and if you miss one somewhere in the middle you get a significantly lower amount of points. In ITG a miss will break your combo but you can still score well, so will scoring in this special mode be closer to osu! or closer to ITG/DDR?

osu!.. the scoring is pretty damn similar though.

What, similiar? Don't you realize that combo based and non-combo based scoring are as different as it gets?

Skyripper wrote:

MegaManEXE wrote:

-Timing windows: ITG has...6 timing windows? osu! basically has 4. And other rhythm games have differing amounts too. If this mode were implemented I'd assume it'd be perfect (300)/great (100)/good (50)/miss but maybe not.

perfect, great, good, miss (this is the osu! version (if it's implemented)). But, we are considering a "Bemani Standard", so maybe more. Most bemani games have about 6. Also, as far as scoring is concerned in ITG/DDR good, bad, miss, and whatever SUBTRACT from your score, which doesn't really exist in osu! atm

The score thing above, the timing windows, and the life bar effects of judgements are major problems with this whole plan. These vary between each game, and the fans of a specific game are very picky with these. A DDR fan hates ITG scoring system/timing windows/life bar, and an ITG fan hates DDR scoring system/timing windows/life bar. Same goes with all other games. Guitar Hero players love their hit/miss system, etc.

If you want to please everyone then you need to have a million game modes or you need to make a setting for the map that decides which timing windows, scoring, etc it uses. This would allow you to have a "bemani" game mode where the mapper just selects which games timing windows, scoring, etc it uses. The down side here is that it gets very confusing as each map uses different settings from the next.

Or another option. You could have only the number of buttons decided by the map. The player then actually selects the settings he uses just like mods are selected. So there's one mod for ITG scoring+timing+life bar, one mod for DDR, one for GH, etc etc. This is less confusing and allows everyone to play all songs with their preferred system, but makes online scoring either impossible or so scattered that most of the lists are really empty and there's no real competition.

Skyripper wrote:

MegaManEXE wrote:

-Arrows: Will the notes for this be the circular beats that normal osu! uses or will they be arrows or the beat things like in O2Jam/IIDX/GF/DM? Also, in DDR/ITG the arrows are colored differently based on if they're 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 notes, etc., would this mode just have all monocolor notes or one color for each column (similar to Pump It Up) or what?

Again, Bemani Standard. I think we'd have an algorithm to tone them based on 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc.

I've been asking for the "bemani" coloring for osu too and this would be a perfect opportunity to make that an option for the osu game mode while it is implemented for the "bemani" game mode. The look of the actual note (arrow, line, circle, etc) should probably be decided by the map.

Skyripper wrote:

MegaManEXE wrote:

-Randomness of charts: One of the worst things about mods in DDR/ITG is how ridiculous they can get, especially if you play on Random/Blender (or whatever they're called, I don't use them so I might have the wrong terms). I hope there will be an algorithm or something in place to prevent stupid shit from being generated in the chart, because it sucks (and sometimes is practically impossible)

I've been looking into this stuff. There are also arrow generators that start from scratch (no stepchart just an mp3) that work fairly well. I guess randomness is important in a sense, but I think map makers also need the option to make their own.

No generators, thanks. Each and every rhythm generator sucks and without a rhythm generator pattern generating is useless. This is why there is a manual ranking process for osu. People make the maps, other people and BATs check that they are ok and then they get ranked.

MegaManEXE wrote:

-Arrows: Will the notes for this be the circular beats that normal osu! uses or will they be arrows or the beat things like in O2Jam/IIDX/GF/DM? Also, in DDR/ITG the arrows are colored differently based on if they're 1/4 or 1/8 or 1/16 notes, etc., would this mode just have all monocolor notes or one color for each column (similar to Pump It Up) or what?

I assume that they would stay arrows, but it doesn't really matter. As long as they're readable. Also, I assume that this mode would be skinnable just like CtB can. I know Stepmania had 30493 different skins and one of my favorite arrow skins was one that had different colors for different timed notes just like you said.

strager wrote:

Rather than make DDR into osu!, why not think about making a mode based off DDR and similar games? I thought that's what the original request was about, anyway.

^

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I think everything that will be said, has been said. And the poll speaks for itself.

To anyone in particular: PM me if you have something pressing you would like to add to this thread. For now, it is locked.