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Mechanical Kb Switches.

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lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

ziin wrote:

unless you're a pro at not bottoming out, blues are bad and you're going to want red or black.

Red and black are linear, with red being lighter.

Brown and blue have a tactile bump, with brown being lighter.

you're going to do well with whatever you choose, but I can't see spending money on a mechanical unless you hate tactile feedback or don't want to bottom out. Those are the only advantages over a scissor switch imo.
There is one more thing, and that is latency.
My other keyboard has scissor switches, and my steelseries 7G has much better latency.
Also another thing where mechanical keyboards shine is that they are usually atleast 6KRO (most are NKRO, if they use PS/2 port). It's not necessary for osu, but for some other games it could bring you an advantage.

edit: anyone remembers good old days with mortal kombat 2 where you had 2 players playing on the same keyboard? I sure do.

Neruell wrote:

I have also a different question. Is it possible to repair the broken keys in a mechanical kb? I know it depends on how it is broken, but just some general experiance if something like that ever happened to someone.
What do you exactly mean by "broken keys"? Cause the switches themselves are really durable and can withstand really serious punishment. If your keycaps (the part of they key that you press) break, there are usually spare ones you can purchase somewhere, because they are really easy to swap.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
generally mechanical keyboards lack macro keys too, and unless I'm mistaken, latency is easily fixed by increasing the polling rate, and it's pretty easy to fix that with mental adjustments (everyone has to do this with any keyboard anyway). When something as awesome as a sidewinder is only $30, it's hard to justify spending an extra $70 for less features and marginal gains.

I remember playing tyrian and wacky wheels with 2 players on the same keyboard. The fun part was when you pressed the other players keys and messed them up. nothing like throwing on the opponent's handbrake in the middle of a race.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

ziin wrote:

unless you're a pro at not bottoming out, blues are bad and you're going to want red or black.
What does bottoming out have to do with anything? Not bottoming out sounds like a really bad style to play with
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
you're wasting time, energy, and speed by pressing the key all the way to the bottom. there's no reason to bottom out if you have tactile feedback.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Just for the record, both blackwidow and 6GV2 (7G) have macro keys. Polling rate is sort of overrated too because it's necessary for USB keyboards and that steals CPU time afaik. Not a big hit though.
PS/2 doesn't require polling rate at all.

Oh yeah, why did I mention MK2? Cause if one player was holding block, the other player couldn't use combo attacks because of the number of keys that were required to be pressed. :p
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

ziin wrote:

you're wasting time, energy, and speed by pressing the key all the way to the bottom. there's no reason to bottom out if you have tactile feedback.
Still sounds like a technique that sacrifices a lot of accuracy for the sake of speed. Anyone can be fast in osu!, that's not
what matters. Having that accuracy comes from controlling your fingers at a steady bpm. This in fact much easier if you bottom your keys and it's all that matters in a rythm game.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
I am not an expert in hardware parts, so I will explain what I mean. When you buy a new keyboard the buttons are hard to press but with the time they become so light to press because they were overused. Is there a way to "repair" it? That happened to my old keyboard but since it cost only 2 euro I didn't think of doing anything with it but not if that will happen to my new one. So any experiance with that "issue"?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

kriers wrote:

ziin wrote:

you're wasting time, energy, and speed by pressing the key all the way to the bottom. there's no reason to bottom out if you have tactile feedback.
Still sounds like a technique that sacrifices a lot of accuracy for the sake of speed. Anyone can be fast in osu!, that's not
what matters. Having that accuracy comes from controlling your fingers at a steady bpm. This in fact much easier if you bottom your keys and it's all that matters in a rythm game.

actually speed is the reason why i cant stream above 170-180~ BPM
Tom69_old
Tom69_old
The REAL Problem with Blue /Brownswitches is that the activation point is lower than the release point.
-> You have go travel a certain distance up after a keypress to be able to press again.
Tactile feedback probably is just some kind of preference.

In Theory black / red switches are better suited because the release point and activation point are on the same heigth which is a side effect of them requiring a linear force to be pressed. (no tactile feedback)

Aaaaaaand, even though in theory red/black switches got an advantage it probably is extremely small. I mean... Cookiezi uses a blackwidow (hence blue switches) and obviously can stream just fine.

I'd recommend going for brown / blue if you want tactile feedback (brown requires less force than blue) and red / black if you don't want.
Detailed info on the different kinds of switches: http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mecha ... oard-guide


Btw. input latency isn't an issue when using PS/2 as unlike USB the status isn't polled but directly sent to the processor through the mobo. (lolcubes already mentioned that I think)
Last edited by Tom69_old , edited 1 time in total.
Mesita
221 posts
Joined November 2009
Mesita

Neruell wrote:

I am not an expert in hardware parts, so I will explain what I mean. When you buy a new keyboard the buttons are hard to press but with the time they become so light to press because they were overused. Is there a way to "repair" it? That happened to my old keyboard but since it cost only 2 euro I didn't think of doing anything with it but not if that will happen to my new one. So any experiance with that "issue"?
it will continue to happen if you use a ruber dome --> rubber will worn out always. Maybe search on google if you can swap one key for another.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Tom94 wrote:

The REAL Problem with Blue / Brown switches is that the activation point is lower than the release point.
-> You have go travel a certain distance up after a keypress to be able to press again.
fixed that for you. blues mimic rubber domes/buckling spring. brown/clear/black/red all have the same activation point and release point.

kriers wrote:

Still sounds like a technique that sacrifices a lot of accuracy for the sake of speed. Anyone can be fast in osu!, that's not
what matters. Having that accuracy comes from controlling your fingers at a steady bpm. This in fact much easier if you bottom your keys and it's all that matters in a rythm game.
whatever. If you want to be good at something you always look for ways to improve. bottoming out is wasteful, even if it's easier to do.

For a brand new person playing osu, I guarantee it's easier for them to play with a mouse than a pen tablet if they've never used a pen before. That doesn't mean that using a mouse is any better than a pen, just that it has a higher learning curve.

Good typists never bottom out their keys unless they're using a rubber dome (which requires bottoming out). The tactile bump is enough to know that the key has been pressed, which is equivalent to bottoming out, except it takes less time/distance/force, and more getting used to. There's a reason people can hit 1000 taps per minute on a single key with scissor switch keyboards: they vibrate their fingers at ~2mm (half the distance of most mechs), and do so pretty accurately.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

ziin wrote:

kriers wrote:

Still sounds like a technique that sacrifices a lot of accuracy for the sake of speed. Anyone can be fast in osu!, that's not
what matters. Having that accuracy comes from controlling your fingers at a steady bpm. This in fact much easier if you bottom your keys and it's all that matters in a rythm game.
whatever. If you want to be good at something you always look for ways to improve. bottoming out is wasteful, even if it's easier to do.

For a brand new person playing osu, I guarantee it's easier for them to play with a mouse than a pen tablet if they've never used a pen before. That doesn't mean that using a mouse is any better than a pen, just that it has a higher learning curve.

Good typists never bottom out their keys unless they're using a rubber dome (which requires bottoming out). The tactile bump is enough to know that the key has been pressed, which is equivalent to bottoming out, except it takes less time/distance/force, and more getting used to. There's a reason people can hit 1000 taps per minute on a single key with scissor switch keyboards: they vibrate their fingers at ~2mm (half the distance of most mechs), and do so pretty accurately.
lol way to say whatever and then make a hell of a good explanation anyway. I love you ziin :)

Still, I'm not convinced that something that's so much harder to learn can be beneficial in a game where the majority of maps range between 80-220 bpm.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

Mesita wrote:

Neruell wrote:

I am not an expert in hardware parts, so I will explain what I mean. When you buy a new keyboard the buttons are hard to press but with the time they become so light to press because they were overused. Is there a way to "repair" it? That happened to my old keyboard but since it cost only 2 euro I didn't think of doing anything with it but not if that will happen to my new one. So any experiance with that "issue"?
it will continue to happen if you use a ruber dome --> rubber will worn out always. Maybe search on google if you can swap one key for another.
That won't happen with a mechanical one, or at least I mean that later I can simply replace the button with a new one?
Waryas
Waryas
the force u need to activate a button on a mech kb is always the same, just clean it regularly
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Waryas wrote:

the force u need to activate a button on a mech kb is always the same, just clean it regularly
It changes when the spring gets worn out, that takes a fuckload of presses though and isn't nearly as noticeable as it is with a rubber dome, and mostly it affects how quickly the key springs back to it's normal position.
Waryas
Waryas
its 2Millions keypresses warranty so..
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Waryas wrote:

its 2Millions keypresses warranty so..
I've broken about 5 million keypresses with my J and K keys respectively so...
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell
Still wondering, can't you actually just replace the 2 buttons and have a "new" kb again? Also isn't it also possible simply exchange the button with a brown switch into a red switch or something like that?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Waryas wrote:

its 2Millions keypresses warranty so..
My 7G has 50million keypress warranty.

Neruell wrote:

Still wondering, can't you actually just replace the 2 buttons and have a "new" kb again? Also isn't it also possible simply exchange the button with a brown switch into a red switch or something like that?
Probably not. The switch is the part of the keyboard. But I really think you shouldn't worry about it that much, because most of these keyboards are much better quality than your standard 2€ one.
The keycaps are changeable though, but you don't care about that.
Royboyvdm
Royboyvdm

Tom94 wrote:

The REAL Problem with Blue / Brown switches is that the activation point is lower than the release point.
-> You have go travel a certain distance up after a keypress to be able to press again.
Tactile feedback probably is just some kind of preference.

In Theory black / red switches are better suited because the release point and activation point are on the same heigth which is a side effect of them requiring a linear force to be pressed. (no tactile feedback)

Aaaaaaand, even though in theory red/black switches got an advantage it probably is extremely small. I mean... Cookiezi uses a blackwidow (hence blue switches) and obviously can stream just fine.

I'd recommend going for brown / blue if you want tactile feedback (brown requires less force than blue) and red / black if you don't want.
Detailed info on the different kinds of switches: http://www.overclock.net/t/491752/mecha ... oard-guide


Btw. input latency isn't an issue when using PS/2 as unlike USB the status isn't polled but directly sent to the processor through the mobo. (lolcubes already mentioned that I think)
Thinking of either buying a brown or red lol, what exactly does the tactile feedback do?
Tom69_old
Tom69_old

Royboyvdm wrote:

Thinking of either buying a brown or red lol, what exactly does the tactile feedback do?
You need more force pressing the key when you're near the activation point.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

Neruell wrote:

Still wondering, can't you actually just replace the 2 buttons and have a "new" kb again? Also isn't it also possible simply exchange the button with a brown switch into a red switch or something like that?
You can change the switches, if you like soldering. The switches are solded into the circuit board and can be changed fairly easily, granted that you have steady hands and something to sold(er?) with.

Man, english is hard especially with words like "Soldering", so I'm not sure if I said that properly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldering
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers
I've always wished for a keyboard with clear, red, blue, black, brown and red switches in one....... and some topre
SPOILER
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa
I once found a link where a guy modded his keyboard to have blue switches with different springs, so that he'd have springs that require less force for fingers that have less force, and springs that require more force for the stronger fingers.
ychao
493 posts
Joined August 2010
ychao
This was where I did some of my background reading before deciding on purchasing my Ducky. It has tonnes of info and references with some decent material on maintenance as well. I hope it will help someone here as much as it did for me.
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Topic Starter
Wishy
Ok, thanks everyone for your feedback. Now I'm between blue and red (will possibly go for red). Even when I understand bottoming out the key is "useless", I've red that you gotta press the key 2mm for either blue and red switches, which means with both keys you gonna have to travel THE SAME DISTANCE, which pretty much makes them the same at that area I guess.
ampzz
ampzz
The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control since you can't actually feel the actuation point except if you rely on bottoming the keys all the time.
With the blues you can hear and feel the rhythm that you're tapping away with; which will likely be my next, better, investment.
flow
27 posts
Joined January 2011
flow

ampzz wrote:

The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control since you can't actually feel the actuation point except if you rely on bottoming the keys all the time.
With the blues you can hear and feel the rhythm that you're tapping away with; which will likely be my next, better, investment.
This is true.
For the most part blues give a clear indicator of how much you're actually tapping/streaming above all else.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

ampzz wrote:

The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control since you can't actually feel the actuation point except if you rely on bottoming the keys all the time.
With the blues you can hear and feel the rhythm that you're tapping away with; which will likely be my next, better, investment.
QFT
ychao
493 posts
Joined August 2010
ychao

ampzz wrote:

The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control since you can't actually feel the actuation point except if you rely on bottoming the keys all the time.
With the blues you can hear and feel the rhythm that you're tapping away with; which will likely be my next, better, investment.

flow wrote:

For the most part blues give a clear indicator of how much you're actually tapping/streaming above all else.
Definitely tally with my experiences so far. I guess control is the key word here.
Though, since the actuation force of brown switches is less than that of the blues - in theory at least - I'd imagine it would be easier (i.e. less exertion needed) to single-tap with on the browns (easier to tap faster?). I can also imagine that it would be less fatiguing for long streams as well, compared to the blues.
Not sure how significant this would be irl since I have yet to experience the browns.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
If you have a very good sense of rhythm, that thing doesn't help you that much, just sayin'.
Neruell
408 posts
Joined May 2009
Neruell

lolcubes wrote:

If you have a very good sense of rhythm, that thing doesn't help you that much, just sayin'.
In that case I guess it is worth of using red since you won't have difficulties controlling it or at least following the rhythm, and speed does benefit here then. But blues seems better for people who lose themselves in rhythm from what I guess reading through the thread.
Cho_old
Cho_old
Does it actually matter atall ? I've used Blacks, Blues & Plastic keyboards and there really hasn't been much of a difference that I've noticed (For osu gameplay atleast, blue switches were a nightmare both for FPS gaming and typing).
IppE
IppE

ampzz wrote:

The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control
You clearly didn't play with them enough.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

IppE wrote:

ampzz wrote:

The reds from my own experience are ridiculously difficult to control
You clearly didn't play with them enough.
I played 4k pc every month for 4 months with reds. Same shitty experience as ampzz had
IppE
IppE
Well I must be the exception to the rule then as I got hang of reds in 2 weeks and I have no issues being accurate with them.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

IppE wrote:

Well I must be the exception to the rule then as I got hang of reds in 2 weeks and I have no issues being accurate with them.
Depends on your own opinon of accuracy. Being accurate with reds is no deal. Streaming low bpm comfortably is a whole different matter,
and by comfortable, I mean SS on hard streamy maps.
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

kriers wrote:

Depends on your own opinon of accuracy. Being accurate with reds is no deal. Streaming low bpm comfortably is a whole different matter,
and by comfortable, I mean SS on hard streamy maps.
hi
Wishy
2,972 posts
Joined September 2010
Topic Starter
Wishy
Can't find red switches fml.
ampzz
ampzz
Willing to trade a Leopold FC500R red for browns.
gat1toneku
608 posts
Joined May 2010
gat1toneku
it's almost impossible to stream accurately without bottoming out on reds
thelewa
3,537 posts
Joined August 2010
thelewa

gat1toneku wrote:

it's almost impossible to stream accurately without bottoming out on reds
hi
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
some people are special.
IppE
IppE
I bottom out on reds on single notes but not in streams :| (unless I'm tired and cba to put effort in it)
Elfice
95 posts
Joined August 2010
Elfice
It's almost impossible to stream accurately without being accurate
Meowcenaries
506 posts
Joined December 2010
Meowcenaries
Looking to invest in a red/brown switch, which model to get that is durable yet helping make my streaming faster
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
No mech keyboard will make you stream faster. It will only make it easier for you to stream up to your current maximum speed.
Liut
777 posts
Joined June 2011
Liut
well lolcubes i would not say that the keyboard does not affect the streaming speed.
try to use an 15 years old microsoft flat keyboard and after a random red/blue mech keyboard
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I used a random 10$ slim keyboard and I could stream high bpm just fine.
Now I have a 7G and my streaming speed is pretty much the same, except much more accurate and consistent, and "vibrating" for super high bpm is easier (260+), but that's not really you should be doing if you want to have any decent accuracy. :p
Tom69_old
Tom69_old

lolcubes wrote:

I used a random 10$ slim keyboard and I could stream high bpm just fine.
Now I have a 7G and my streaming speed is pretty much the same, except much more accurate and consistent, and "vibrating" for super high bpm is easier (260+), but that's not really you should be doing if you want to have any decent accuracy. :p
Just wanting to confirm this.
I experienced the exact same thing when switching from rubber dome to the 6gv2.

Well... the steelseries black switch keyboards might aswell be crap. But I doubt that.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Tom94 wrote:

Well... the steelseries black switch keyboards might aswell be crap. But I doubt that.
I doubt that as well. ;)
Royboyvdm
Royboyvdm
Getting my red key switches leopold tomorrow, and see how it turns out
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Laptop keyboard.
kriers
1,963 posts
Joined April 2010
kriers

CXu wrote:

Laptop keyboard.
Din duCXt! This is a thread about mechanical keyboards! /o/
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu

kriers wrote:

Din duCXt!
So mean ;_;
-Soba-
374 posts
Joined January 2011
-Soba-
Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry mx Browns ftw c: (just noticed that ftw is wtf backwards o_o;;)
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