Lucidity wrote:

Have you considered that if I actually were the Jester that I wouldn't make it that obvious? Roleclaim mafia to get voted and then vote for myself? And don't give me that WIFOM crap

If you are jester, then your behaviour could have been banking on the fact that no one here knows about the jester role (since there are no role lists this game).

EDIT: ninja'd by Suburu
hmm, all wins are equal? OK in that case I doubt we have a jester, since the main obstacle of being a jester is not letting the mafia know about you, since the mafia would be motivated to kill you so they don't lose. Without the mafia's motivation to kill the jester, the role would be too easy to win with.

You're killing me here Subi ...

adam2046 wrote:

You're killing me here Subi ...

By proving my innocence? haha ;p You and Wojjan are so suspicious -.-

LadySuburu wrote:

1: ANY kind of role could be in this game, and the roles are unknown.

Mod: Could you post a list of all the kind of roles that could possibly be in here? What's the overall list you're working from? There are many different game setups out there :O For instance if I've played a game with an elf character who has this and that ability, but no one else has played with that char before they wouldn't know about it...

So a list that specifies all the possible roles so everyone's on the same page would be great

haha...yeah.

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Yaay, Bobby Stars is here, now we'll all have fun.

Also, Lucidity, you could aswell elaborate why you see me and adam as one person.

Lucidity wrote:

Mod: Could you post a list of all the kind of roles that could possibly be in here? What's the overall list you're working from? There are many different game setups out there :O For instance if I've played a game with an elf character who has this and that ability, but no one else has played with that char before they wouldn't know about it...

So a list that specifies all the possible roles so everyone's on the same page would be great

Sorry, but no. With the roles being unknown, someone could claim any role with any power. After that, it'll be up to you to believe them or not. Of course, any actual actions that are done have to be within the scope of your powers, but you can claim to be able to do whatever you want. inb4postclaimingtobeabletodowhatevertheywant

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I missed a couple pages, anyway, unvote
Vote:adam For randomly thinking I was mafia. Seems as though he wants to dispose of me.

Mm...I see how this works now...but rather a bit to late for me to make a change.

unvote

Vote: Ludicity

rust, if I wanted to dispose of you, I'd be voting for you...

I've made a minor change to a few people's roles. I sent PMs to those who have been affected.

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Mafia are not allowed to discuss until nightime.

*was busy moving furniture and shit even though it's a holiday*

Aaaaand anything I was going to say has already been said. WIFOM, Jester, cherry cheesecake, etc.

I'll check back later~

adam2046 wrote:

Mafia are not allowed to discuss until nightime.

Roles aren't specified anywhere...Nice try though.

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Wojjan seems to be reffering to the town as "we"
"I think the town won't buy your show and if the Mafia doesn't get you, we WILL."
he's talking in the future tense and predicting what will happen: The town wont believe you so if the mafia don't kill you "we" (being the town) will.
It's really quite clear.
He didn't say the town wouldn't lynch.

I'm not going to talk about your accusation because we all know where that'll lead us (Mafia 2 "but you said it" "k I'm it then" "k you're mafia" "alright then I'm not" "but you said-" "ALRIGHT I AM" "no you're not, yes you are" "SHUT THE FUCK UP!")
Hint: I'm not

I really don't think IMO that anyone would claim to be mafia like that even as a joke unless they're an idiot ^_^
So for me those are the only 2 immediate (find me some others k?) possibilities.

I do find Wojjan quite suspicious (reasons listed by absolutely everyone too boring to make people read them again)
Unvote
Back to voting Rust

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Lucidity wrote:

Echo wrote:

Lucidity wrote:

Have you considered that if I actually were the Jester that I wouldn't make it that obvious? Roleclaim mafia to get voted and then vote for myself?

Lucidity wrote:

Using WIFOM as a basis for voting is silly. There's absolutely no justification for using that, except paranoia. Or maybe trying to mislead others.

I sense inconsistency.

Where ? :<

The first quote is WIFOM, while the second is condemning WIFOM.

"Have you considered that if I actually were the Jester that I wouldn't make it that obvious?"

Yes. But then you'd have know that, so that's why you did it. But you counted on us thinking that which means you know we won't think you're the Jester. But you would have counter-countered us so you *are* the Jester etc. etc.

WIFOM is bad for townies because all it does is lead you to an endless loop of thoughts which ultimately gets resolved by a *guess* at what you think the other person is more likely to do. That undermines the point of the game. It derails the thoughts of people and makes them focus on useless guesswork. WIFOM distracts people, and therefore scum can use it to misdirect townies. Townies should avoid WIFOM. There is no point in using it.

I completely agree with that. And yet all the votes against me are based on WIFOM?

At times like these Ockham's razor jumps to mind.

I guess you could call the first quote WIFOM. It is also condemning WIFOM though. I'm saying that I would not use such an obvious WIFOM strategy, since WIFOM isn't any basis to vote on. I wouldn't expect anyone in the game to vote based on WIFOM. There's also the rather large inconsistency of voting for myself before I got close to being lynched. A Jester would not do that.

Simplicity. "Joking around" is the simplest explanation for my actions, and from a neutral perspective has to be the most likely reason for them.

My initial vote remains, after all these discussion.

I see no reason to change my vote.

I have no idea what just happened but I will keep my vote for lucidity. Who the heck cares if we let the jester win? Personally, I see no problem.

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Lucidity wrote:

I completely agree with that. And yet all the votes against me are based on WIFOM?

At times like these Ockham's razor jumps to mind.

I guess you could call the first quote WIFOM. It is also condemning WIFOM though. I'm saying that I would not use such an obvious WIFOM strategy, since WIFOM isn't any basis to vote on. I wouldn't expect anyone in the game to vote based on WIFOM. There's also the rather large inconsistency of voting for myself before I got close to being lynched. A Jester would not do that.

Simplicity. "Joking around" is the simplest explanation for my actions, and from a neutral perspective has to be the most likely reason for them.

Would you please stop saying WIFOM, I think the entire point of this post was to see how many times you could say WIFOM in one post.

So anyway if you had read my posts in the other thread I told everyone that I found anyone who voted themselves suspicious on the grounds that humans should not vote themselves even as a joke.

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adam2046 wrote:

So anyway if you had read my posts in the other thread I told everyone that I found anyone who voted themselves suspicious on the grounds that humans should not vote themselves even as a joke.

Why should townies not vote for themselves even as a joke? Other than getting the WIFOM fanatics all fired up, there's no logical "sinister plan" that accompanies such a vote, is there?

Also, WIFOM WIFOM WIFOM.

PS WIFOM.

PPS Role Claim: Cop. I investigated myself and found me not guilty. Joy ^_^

If you were a townie and voted for yourself, that would not be a pro-town action. You would be creating confusion, which hinders the mafia-finding process. As a pro-town member, you should be ultimately trying to secure a victory for the town, and voting for yourself does not help that in anyway.

While joke voting of course doesn't generally lead to assured things, voting for yourself assuredly leads to a situation undesirable for the town, assuming you are a townie. And why would you do that?!

*drinks the beer in front of him*

That makes sense at any stage of the game except (the initial stages of) Day 1. There is effectively no way to make an informed decision so all the votes are either joke votes or random votes. My vote was cast before any real discussion had begun. It wasn't its intended effect, but it got discussion going and even (In my mind) provided some valuable information to the game. Possible collusion between adam and Wojjan and definite suspicious activity by Wojjan. This is surely a positive thing for the townies, showing that "Don't vote for yourself" isn't a rule cast in stone never to be challenged. It shouldn't always lead to confusion, unless some players insist that it does.

Another thing to consider is that voting for yourself doesn't change anything in the game. Unless you're close to the deadline and stand a real chance of being lynched because of majority vote, your self-vote should have no impact at all. No character other than the Jester benefits from being lynched. The Jester wouldn't vote for himself at any other stage than L-1 though. In the end voting for yourself is an odd thing to do, but ultimately has no effect on the game. Of course there are various scenarios later on in the game which might invalidate that statement, but certainly on Day 1 it is true. Or is my logic completely wrong?

Is it really so hard to believe that my role claim was a joke? :p Yeah, I won't be doing it in any future games and I'm learning as I go, but I still can't see why it's such a scummy action. Even after all these pages.

Mod: Could we have a vote count please?

Wojjan: Mafia wouldn't be stupid enough to roleclaim themselves. I believe that you're just trying to push as much suspicion onto Lucidity as you can to remove people's suspicion of you.

Unvote.
Vote: Wojjan

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Tbh WIFOM only exists in the remote regions of a paranoid mind.

Echo wrote:

Lucidity wrote:

The Jester wouldn't vote for himself at any other stage than L-1 though.

Derekku Chan wrote:

Mafia wouldn't be stupid enough to roleclaim themselves.

What are these quotes called again? Starts with W, ends with M, etc., etc.

>_> Regardless, there's no point at all to claim mafia other than to joke around or be stupid. Or unless one really is mafia and just doesn't want to play but then fuck them for signing up in the first place XP

Wait, are you guys still thinking there's a jester this game? With LS's clarified rules I seriously doubt it..'

also still voting Wojjan

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Votecount:

Wojjan - 4 (strager, 0_o, Echo, Derekku)
Lucidity - 3 (JInxyjem, DxS, Ivalset)
rust45 - 3 (thepianist, Wojjan, adam2046)
adam2046 - 2 (Lucidity, rust45)
Echo - 1 (Metruzero)
strager - 1 (Bagelbob)
thepianist - 1 (Pasonia)

Edit: I think some of my votecount vanished... I'm rechecking it now.
Edit2: Yeah, somehow adam dissapeared off the face of the earth. Fix'd.
Edit3: Corrected order.

Wojjan - 4 (strager, 0_o, Echo, Derekku)
Lucidity - 3 (JInxyjem, DxS, Ivalset)
rust45 - 3 (thepianist, Wojjan, adam2046)
adam2046 - 2 (Lucidity, rust45)
Echo - 1 (Metruzero)
strager - 1 (Bagelbob)
thepianist - 1 (Pasonia)

I'm pretty sure this is right.

Remember it's 9 to lynch

EDIT: GAH NINJA'D
EDIT2: wait, did you forget about this LS?
adam2046 - 2 (Lucidity, rust45)

Subi just doesn't want me to die ^_^

OK, today I've made it as far as Pasonia's post on Page 9 and now you're making my head hurt. There's a few things I want to say now, before I attempt to go on.

@Lucidity
Your posts are full of WIFOM, thus making things more confusing and wasting valuable time.
You claim that WIFOM is not a good reason to vote for someone.
Mafia commonly use WIFOM as a delaying tactic in order to stifle discussion.
You accuse without evidence. Quote, or at least link to the posts where you accuse people of committing <Action>.

@Wojjan
Can you explain why you thought you were at L-1?
I've got my eye on you.

@Echo
I know you're a smart person. However, in this post you don't show signs of thinking clearly.

Wojjan wrote:

I think the town won't buy your show and if the Mafia doesn't get you, we WILL.

This compound sentence can easily be broken down into two parts
"I think the town won't buy your show" (Wojjan thinks that the town won't believe that Lucidity is town-aligned)
and
"if the Mafia doesn't get you, we WILL." (we, in this clause, is everyone who is not part of Mafia)

In addition, I feel that

Wojjan wrote:

Let's score a majority then, if he'll get lynched anyway. No point in waiting for 2 more days for the deadline to kick in. Vote Lucidity to move things along

does more to spur on discussion than suppress it. Wojjan here is putting the pressure on Lucidity. This vote makes end-of-day-lynching Lucidity possible, forcing Lucidity to post more.

@Everyone
Claiming Mafia is WIFOM.
Claiming Mafia draws attention to yourself.
Townies should not lie, lying is something that only Mafia need to do, Pasonia.

FOS Wojjan
FOS Echo
FOS strager

Unvote: Strager
Vote: Lucidity

BagelBob wrote:

@Lucidity:
You accuse without evidence. Quote, or at least link to the posts where you accuse people of committing <Action>.

I've quoted every post I've referenced...

You seem to have a very formulaic approach to the game. Are there really absolute "laws" in this game?

Unvote
Vote: Wojjan.

Still got mah eye on you adam ;p

BagelBob wrote:

@Wojjan
Can you explain why you thought you were at L-1?

I think he was confused because he's used to the smaller mafia games, where it's 5 to lynch on day 1. I guess he had 4 votes on him when he said that.

Well you should try to understand the human mind when playing these.
People who are town are fighting to kill the mafia and will do everyting in their power to weed them out and kill them.
People who are mafia work to confuse the town in order to shroud their own actions to kill the town.
So when operating as either side they should follow general guidelines, such as, being clear in what you say if you are human, if a person is being confusing all game you should suspect them, as they are not helping the human cause that way.

aaaaand I don't feel like writing anymore so whatever.

I missed like six pages and had to read them all in one go. Yikes.

Some key things I wish to add:

adam's decision to vote for Lucidity D2 if he isn't NK'd N1 is this:

Mafia want to be the only ones who win. They don't want a Jester to win. Also, if Lucidity turns up a Townie, that's still good news for them.

If Lucidity is a Mafia, he wouldn't be NK'd except in some strange universe. Thus, he would be alive for D2, thus resulting in a lynch by this reasoning.

Of course, there's some WIFOM involved (sorry). Mafia could NOT NK Lucidity N1 even if he wasn't a Mafia, and kill someone else. In that case by adam's reasoning Lucidity would be lynched D2. It's a win-win for the Mafia there.

So, I've got my eye on you, adam, though I do see the initial innocence in this logic.

To clarify what LS meant, if a Jester wins, that doesn't mean everyone else loses. The only win which causes a loss is a Townie or Mafia win, in which case the other side loses.

Echo wrote:

strager please explain your "serious vote" for those less gifted among us

For you, Echo...

You got seriously troll'd.

Kinda.

Whatever.

By convincing arguments of others I hold my vote against Wojjan.

I consider a shared win a loss no matter what.
Cause I'm a dick, ya' know?

Why can't we all just get along~

in b4 someone suggest a mafia/town win

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And Farewell Wojjan.

DeathxShinigami wrote:

And Farewell Wojjan.

What?

Lucidity wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

@Lucidity:
You accuse without evidence. Quote, or at least link to the posts where you accuse people of committing <Action>.

I've quoted every post I've referenced...

You seem to have a very formulaic approach to the game. Are there really absolute "laws" in this game?

Unvote
Vote: Wojjan.

Still got mah eye on you adam ;p

I lol'd.


You knew wojjan was 1 vote higher than you so when Bagel evened out the votes, you decided to up wojjan a notch by voting for him. Mafia, no?

I take back my attack against the first quote I quoted of Wojjan. I guess I wasn't thinking too clearly, but rereading it now makes sense.

strager wrote:

adam's decision to vote for Lucidity D2 if he isn't NK'd N1 is this:

Mafia want to be the only ones who win. They don't want a Jester to win. Also, if Lucidity turns up a Townie, that's still good news for them.

If Lucidity is a Mafia, he wouldn't be NK'd except in some strange universe. Thus, he would be alive for D2, thus resulting in a lynch by this reasoning.

Of course, there's some WIFOM involved (sorry).

First, you're defending adam for him.

Second, it's not just "some" WIFOM - this whole reasoning is WIFOM. If Lucidity is townie, then the Mafia just have to not kill him tonight to get a free townie lynch on D2. Which means if Lucidity is alive tomorrow, he's obviously townie. But the Mafia would know that, so if Lucidity is Mafia they don't have anything to worry about etc. etc.

Third and the most important - don't forget adam was the first one to even bring up the idea that a Jester is in this game. Adam introduces the idea that Lucidity is somehow the Jester, which then he uses as justification for killing Lucidity D1 or D2. Sounds like he's trying to set up a lynch to me.

With that reasoning, I think Lucidity is innocent. strager just jumped up a notch on my suspicion list. see following posts

Wait...I thought he was accusing me.

If he was accusing you, then meh *edits post*

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Wait wait wait, did I miss something? Is Lucidity suddenly the general force of truth that should be listened to at all times? Because seeing as his argument is only based on things I said and others said aswell, I don't see why his suspicion is on me.

vote: Lucidity if I haven't done so already

Meh, too much posting to do. I am writing 2 big exams this week so if you're confused about any of my earlier posts, reread them. I can't explain all of them.

JInxyjem wrote:

I lol'd.


You knew wojjan was 1 vote higher than you so when Bagel evened out the votes, you decided to up wojjan a notch by voting for him. Mafia, no?

How is that a Mafia action?

1. I suspect both adam and Wojjan of being Mafia.
2. The votes with adam don't seem to be going anywhere.
3. I'm in real danger of being voted off.
4. Every player in the game wants to stay in it.
5. I don't want to be in a situation where someone jumps ship and I'm gone.
6. I want a Mafia player to be voted off.
7. Thus my vote is worth most with Wojjan.

i.e. I'm protecting myself and voting for someone who I think is suspicious and making the more efficient vote.

Sure if I were Mafia I could do the same, but it's definitely not suspicious behavior by any means?

Nice try. However:

You had not posted a reason when you voted for wojjan. Your post just had a quote from bagelbob.

So after I pointed it out, you quickly added your suspicions as excuses.

BagelBob wrote:

In addition, I feel that

Wojjan wrote:

Let's score a majority then, if he'll get lynched anyway. No point in waiting for 2 more days for the deadline to kick in. Vote Lucidity to move things along

does more to spur on discussion than suppress it. Wojjan here is putting the pressure on Lucidity. This vote makes end-of-day-lynching Lucidity possible, forcing Lucidity to post more.

As if I weren't posting enough already? I don't think he needed to *nudge* me to post more at all. Furthermore, he was part of Newbie Mafia 3 on these forums where such a bandwagon vote occurred, which was not beneficial to the townies at all. Why would he make the same mistake again.

BagelBob wrote:

Lucidity wrote:

None of this makes any sense, does it? Maybe it's because it's taken out of context. If you look at my Roleclaim, it was surrounded by other joke posts from every person in the thread.

Can you produce any of these posts or people?

As I said in my previous post, I don't have all the time in the world. Please do take a look at the initial Day 1 posts. ALL of them are pretty much joke posts, are they not? Vote for grammar nazi. Roleclaim: Team Rocket Grunt. etc. I think it's quite clear to see without quoting 20 posts.

RE: adam an Wojjan acting in unison: Read my earlier posts. (I can't quote and requote and requote in every post I make can I?)

RE: Defense post: It starts here doesn't it?

RE: Confusing post: What's confusing about it? Reread it. The two paragraphs weren't written at the same time so they do contain two different trains of thought I guess.

JInxyjem wrote:

Nice try. However:

You had not posted a reason when you voted for wojjan. Your post just had a quote from bagelbob.

So after I pointed it out, you quickly added your suspicions as excuses.

What ? Please read this whole thread. My very first serious post states:

Lucidity wrote:

For now I find adam and Wojjan the most suspicious.

Unvote
Vote: adam2046

It can be found here.

All my follow up posts deal with Wojjan's suspicious activity.

PS. Can someone please tell me how to link to specific posts like BagelBob does?

There's a small page icon in the upper right hand corner of each post, next to the date/time of posting. Click on that (or just copy the link directly).

Ah, thanks

I subscribe to strager's logic.

Unvote vote adam2046.

Wojjan wrote:

Lucidity wrote:

So that's very aggressive. Think more happy thoughts ^_^ So let's say the Mafia doesn't kill me...And you do. That means I win right? Why would you go and do that if you honestly thought I was the Jester? The only explanation is that you don't think I am the Jester and want to kill a townie...

The Mafia knows they lose if you don't get killed tonight. If the Mafia doesn't, we're in the very unlikely scenario in which you are Mafia. You wouldn't kill yourself.

IF we dont lynch him AND he isnt NK'd, he MUST be mafia/jester

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... se_dilemma

try again


*reads the rules carefully*
welp, nothing about nonplayers not posting

I forget what exactly strager's logic is, it's kinda confusing.

Votecount:

Wojjan - 5 (strager, 0_o, Echo, Derekku, Lucidity)
Lucidity - 5 (JInxyjem, DxS, Ivalset, BagelBob, Wojjan)
rust45 - 2 (thepianist, adam2046)
adam2046 - 2 (rust45, Pasonia)
Echo - 1 (Metruzero)

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I'm on two...you really don't want me to die, do you?

Also, adam, why are you voting for rust? Did I miss some important detail?

Wojjan wrote:

LadySuburu wrote:

adam2046 - 1 (rust45, Pasonia)

lol

Also, why am I in front?

Fix'd adam's votecount.

You're in front because you hit five votes first, therefore it will be you lynched at deadline if nothing happened from now till then.

So if someone would unvote and vote me again Lucidity would be in front?

Mhmm. Remember, in the case of a tie, first to reach that # of votes is the one lynched.

Just keeping my vote on someone I feel uneasy about.

I still don't like Lucidity more so far. The logic occasionally sounds too forced, and I don't want to vote Wojjan yet either. Both seem too neutral...

Wojjan wrote:

I think the town won't buy your show and if the Mafia doesn't get you, we WILL.

That's gives the impression Wojjan is a townie. So, that vote can be stalled.

BUT WAIT

rust45 wrote:

Your lying and I can tell. No one would just go out and say that they were the Mafia Roleblocker.

Now in the rare chance that Ludicity WAS the jester, it would have worked. Kind of. But unless you were in the Mafia you wouldn't know for sure that someone was a roleblocker. I think, right? Someone enlighten me on that point.

Then again, it could've been just a guess, and you haven't really said anything after that. I'll wait. Plus I'm not sure about the mafia role stuff - someone could tell me later? Please? I don't want to make a mistake and kill a townie. That would be bad.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

Wojjan wrote:

Lucidity wrote:

So that's very aggressive. Think more happy thoughts ^_^ So let's say the Mafia doesn't kill me...And you do. That means I win right? Why would you go and do that if you honestly thought I was the Jester? The only explanation is that you don't think I am the Jester and want to kill a townie...

The Mafia knows they lose if you don't get killed tonight. If the Mafia doesn't, we're in the very unlikely scenario in which you are Mafia. You wouldn't kill yourself.

IF we dont lynch him AND he isnt NK'd, he MUST be mafia/jester

http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... se_dilemma

try again


*reads the rules carefully*
welp, nothing about nonplayers not posting

I think I already pointed that out as a WIFOM situation. This reasoning is what supports Pasonia's vote against adam.

Wojjan, I am greatly interested in hearing your defense for the attacks against you. If you were of ANY alignment (Mafia, Jester, Townie, something else) it doesn't help your team at all if you don't defend yourself. So if you're a Townie, please do. =]

I am more suspicious of adam than Wojjan at this point, but I don't want to get Lucidity lynched because she seems to be acting as I did back in M2, and I sympathize. So, I'll keep the votes tied because that'd result in a Wojjan lynch more than a Lucidity lynch.

(I'll go through my notes later; I'm not at my computer right now so I don't have my detailed analyses of players and things.)

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strager, I've got nothing to defend against except literal interpretations of my words and WIFOMs. I CAN'T defend myself because there's no real argument in play.

Also, I don't believe the Lucidity = Jester thing anymore. It seems pretty convincinhg that he's not, but I'm not yet sure wether he's mafia or not. We'll find out, since he'll die at the deadline thanks to thepianist.

Geez you guys are so impatient.

Lol:/

Can everyone who's voting for me and stating WIFOM or Jester as reasons please remove your votes ^_^

Sigh~

Next game I won't post as much. It just puts you in the spotlight and gets you voted off.

@thepianist: There is most likely a Mafia Roleblocker in the game. We have 16 players so I'm sure there are a few Townie aux roles running around among us. Having a Roleblocker would make sense to me.

I didn't really have a reason for saying "Mafia Roleblocker" instead of the generic "Mafia" in my "roleclaim". At the time I was a roleblocker in Mafia 3, so I guess saying it out loud in this thread was lulzy?

Anyhoo~Everyone please consider your votes carefully.

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Oh, I forgot.

Unvote
Vote: adam

He loves me! wait what?

I will attempt to bring together everything I find suspicious about Lucidity in this post. There are other people I find suspicious and other things that I feel need to be discussed. I will make a separate post about them.

I like to go chronologically, but instead I'm going to start with the post I assume Lucidity is referring to as the beginning of his defense.

Lucidity wrote:

adam2046 wrote:

So uh...Rust and Lucidity for mafia?

This post is interesting for two reasons:

1. He gives no justification for accusing Rust of being mafia.
2. He starts an almost successful bandwagon push to vote me off.

It is of course in the interest of the mafia to get townies lynched. And what better way than a quick bandwagon before anyone knows what's going on? He reacted with shock and outrage at ASH voting strager off in a similar fashion in Mafia 3...Why the change of heart? Voting me while saying "May as well find out" in a nonchalant manner...Ya.

Here, he is trying to relate two things which are not the same. ASH placed the final vote, ending the day, while adam places the second vote, bringing Lucidity to L-7. I'd also like everyone to remember that Lucidity thinks starting a bandwagon is a Scumtell.

Now, this is a curious place to start a defense. Not one hour prior, Lucidity was voting for himself. This action caused 2 people to unvote from Lucidity. That's right, Lucidity defended himself after people started to unvote.

There are a few points in Lucidity's next post as well.

Lucidity wrote:

Furthermore, who says there's even a Jester in the game?

This is an appeal to ignorance. In other words, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

Lucidity wrote:

Like I said before, you're way too confident in your claims to not be suspicious. It looks like you're trying to lock in a non-mafia lynch to me.

Here, Lucidity attacks adam for his confidence. Last time I checked, confidence was not a scumtell. It is also a very indirect way of saying "I'm not a mafia."

Lucidity wrote:

Have you considered that if I actually were the Jester that I wouldn't make it that obvious? Roleclaim mafia to get voted and then vote for myself? And don't give me that WIFOM crap

This is WIFOM, followed directly by stonethrowing against WIFOM. In many of his posts, Lucidity asserts that WIFOM is not a valid argument basically by calling it names.

Lucidity wrote:

Oh come on;p Everyone was joking around (still are). Using WIFOM as a basis for voting is silly. There's absolutely no justification for using that, except paranoia. Or maybe trying to mislead others.

Everyone is still joking around? Didn't Lucidity's actual defense begin in his last post? This is an inconsistency, followed by more stonethrowing at WIFOM, with a hint of ad hominem. There is nothing to prove that WIFOM is silly or that people who use it are paranoid.

Lucidity wrote:

By proving my innocence? haha ;p You and Wojjan are so suspicious -.-

Here, Lucidity provides no proof of adam and Wojjan being suspicious.

In addition, the question about roles could have been answered by reading the rules of the game in the first post.

Lucidity wrote:

Alrighty. That does make the game more interesting

I assumed strager was joking earlier:

strager wrote:

Role claim: Team Rocket Grunt.

But who knows?!

Something actually valuable. It shall be noted that strager warrants suspicion, and he shall be included in my next post.

Lucidity wrote:

Wojjan wrote:

Also, Lucidity, you could aswell elaborate why you see me and adam as one person.

You and adam seem to act in unison. Both of you are also extremely determined to get rid of me.

Rather than providing evidence, Lucidity repeats himself. Another accusation, again lacking anything to back it up.

Lucidity wrote:

Lucidity, don't act all "you're trying to kill me ;((" since you tried to kill yourself aswell.

This was still part of the joke. I really didn't even know that a role such as the Jester existed until it was pointed out in this thread. I don't expect anyone to believe that, but it's true This is only my second mafia game.

Have you considered that if I were trying to kill myself I would not have voted for myself so early on? My vote pretty much canceled the assault on me. If I were a Jester I would have waited until I could put in the final vote, wouldn't I? At the very least I wouldn't have acted so blatantly to get myself voted...

Here Lucidity claims that voting for himself is just a joke. My question to Lucidity is this: Why is it that your vote for yourself is a joke, and adam and Wojjan's votes are scum-votes trying to quick lynch you? Again, this is followed by WIFOM.

Lucidity wrote:

None of this makes any sense, does it? Maybe it's because it's taken out of context. If you look at my Roleclaim, it was surrounded by other joke posts from every person in the thread. My roleclaim was made as a PS. A PPS "brbsuicide" followed it. I think it's quite clear that it was made in jest (lulpun), just like all the other posts at the time.

Lucidity's "joke post" is the only one on the page. I've yet to find a similar joke.

Lucidity wrote:

These kinds of aggressive remarks and your and adam's determination to get rid of me is what makes me suspicious of you. There's just no way that you can be that confident on the first day without knowing something that the rest of us don't. You also seem to work together. That's why I group you two together. You happy with my explanation?

This time, Lucidity states that being aggressive and determined are scum-tells. That brings the list of attributes to someone who is confident, aggressive, and determined. Personally, this is how I would describe a scum-hunter.
In addition, Lucidity is begging the question.
"You also seem to work together. That's why I group you two together."
This is using the conclusion as the premise.

Lucidity wrote:

Seriously though, this is ridiculously suspicious to me. What does everyone else think? On hindsight, I probably shouldn't have roleclaimed like that, but I urge everyone to look at the surrounding posts...Everyone was joking around. Why would my post be serious?

I believe that this, along with all of the WIFOM and stonethrowing at WIFOM, is trying to confuse everyone. Lucidity even goes as far as to ask other people to come up with explanations for his actions.

Lucidity wrote:

adam2046 wrote:

Mafia are not allowed to discuss until nightime.

Roles aren't specified anywhere...Nice try though.

Oh my gosh, another good point. There could be a roll that has the ability to psychically talk during the day.

Lucidity wrote:

I completely agree with that. And yet all the votes against me are based on WIFOM?

At times like these Ockham's razor jumps to mind.

I guess you could call the first quote WIFOM. It is also condemning WIFOM though. I'm saying that I would not use such an obvious WIFOM strategy, since WIFOM isn't any basis to vote on. I wouldn't expect anyone in the game to vote based on WIFOM. There's also the rather large inconsistency of voting for myself before I got close to being lynched. A Jester would not do that.

Simplicity. "Joking around" is the simplest explanation for my actions, and from a neutral perspective has to be the most likely reason for them.

"That" is Echo's assertion that WIFOM is bad for townies. The tone I get from "all the votes against me are based on WIFOM?" again makes me think that Lucidity is stonethrowing here.
Lucidity brings up Occam's razor without saying what Occam's razor should (in his opinion) be shaved off. In the end, Lucidity says that "Joking around" is the simplest explanation. However, the explanation of "Joking around" is not something that can be proved or disproved, and thus is something that Occam's razor states should be shaved off. It's like Lucidity is trying to throw out fancy terms to confuse everyone.
Even when talking about WIFOM, Lucidity uses WIFOM and even includes some stonethrowing.

Now, in this post Lucidity is joking around again. Lucidity is not scum-hunting, but creating a distraction and joking around wasting time.

Lucidity wrote:

That makes sense at any stage of the game except (the initial stages of) Day 1.

What is "That"? Also, Lucidity provides no proof that "That" makes sense at some time or doesn't at some other time.

Lucidity wrote:

There is effectively no way to make an informed decision so all the votes are either joke votes or random votes.

This is absolutely incorrect. Bandwagons, along with contradictions, anti-scum-hunting posts, and general things that don't help in any way can lead to suspicion and finding scum on Day 1. Again, it looks like Lucidity is trying to waste time to not get a lynch on Day 1.

Lucidity wrote:

My vote was cast before any real discussion had begun.

In that case, adam and Wojjan's votes were made "before any real discussion had begun" also. There is no difference between Lucidity's vote and adam and Wojjan's vote, yet Lucidity claims her vote was a joke and adam and Wojjan's votes are scummy.

Lucidity wrote:

Possible collusion between adam and Wojjan and definite suspicious activity by Wojjan.

Again, Lucidity does not provide examples, proof.

Lucidity wrote:

This is surely a positive thing for the townies, showing that "Don't vote for yourself" isn't a rule cast in stone never to be challenged. It shouldn't always lead to confusion, unless some players insist that it does.

Here Lucidity states that voting for yourself isn't confusing and that it's the other players who talk about self-votes that confuse. Lucidity is trying to shift the blame off of himself and onto others, an early sign of self-preservation.

Lucidity wrote:

Another thing to consider is that voting for yourself doesn't change anything in the game. Unless you're close to the deadline and stand a real chance of being lynched because of majority vote, your self-vote should have no impact at all.

Again, Lucidity is stating that self-voting is not a bad thing, saying that it "should have no impact at all." Even if this is true, then Lucidity was making useless posts in this game that distracted the town from scum-hunting rather than trying to find scum.

Lucidity wrote:

Tbh WIFOM only exists in the remote regions of a paranoid mind.

Again, Lucidity is stonethrowing against WIFOM combined with ad hominem.

Lucidity wrote:

Meh, too much posting to do. I am writing 2 big exams this week so if you're confused about any of my earlier posts, reread them. I can't explain all of them.

I ask for clarity, Lucidity denies it and give an excuse to set up a period of absence from the game. Lucidity is trying to set up lurking in the near future.

Lucidity wrote:

I'm protecting myself and voting for someone who I think is suspicious and making the more efficient vote.

The second reason is the only valid one.
The first reason is self-preservation. I didn't explain this earlier because I wanted to save it until now, when Lucidity actually admits to it.

The Town wins when all the Mafia are dead.
The Mafia wins if they survive to the point where their numbers equal the Town's.

Townies try to lynch Mafia, Mafia try to survive. That's how this game works and why self-preservation is scummy.
The third reason, the "more efficient vote" is an example of compromise. In this game, since you don't know who you're compromising with, it's probably scum. I've learned this from personal experience.

Lucidity wrote:

As if I weren't posting enough already? I don't think he needed to *nudge* me to post more at all.

Since this is an opinion question, I'd be happy to give you mine. Your post-count in this game is very high. Your post quality is next to none. You don't need to post more, you need to post relevant things.

Lucidity wrote:

As I said in my previous post, I don't have all the time in the world. Please do take a look at the initial Day 1 posts. ALL of them are pretty much joke posts, are they not? Vote for grammar nazi. Roleclaim: Team Rocket Grunt. etc. I think it's quite clear to see without quoting 20 posts.

RE: adam an Wojjan acting in unison: Read my earlier posts. (I can't quote and requote and requote in every post I make can I?)

RE: Defense post: It starts here doesn't it?

RE: Confusing post: What's confusing about it? Reread it. The two paragraphs weren't written at the same time so they do contain two different trains of thought I guess.

Again, I can't find any joke posts that even come close to yours. As for the two things you mention, rust's post is an example of early ad hominem, and you yourself suggested that strager was being serious.
Also, when I ask for clarity, it's only after reading, re-reading and re-reading again. All you're doing is causing chaos and trying to distract the town from scum-hunting.

And that is why I'm voting for Lucidity.

holy crap

also, tldr's are beautiful things

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I think Lucidity's main problem is she doesn't understand what WIFOM really is. Educate yourself? See BagelBob's signature -- that's a great example to learn from, and very entertaining. =]

That would be plausible, except Lucidity agreed with Echo when Echo said that WIFOM was bad for the town, yet continued to use it giraffe.

Lucidity is simply bending meanings to their desire.

BagelBob wrote:

That would be plausible, except Lucidity agreed with Echo when Echo said that WIFOM was bad for the town, yet continued to use it giraffe.

lol.

Also, accurate deadline check: 4:42 away from this post

Frequently, I meant to say frequently. Also 6:36 away from this post.

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This map has been deleted on the request of its creator. It is no longer available.

0_o wrote:

Woah hold on.. when did you get this Jester info?

and more importantly, from who?
And why isn't it in the thread, as it should be?

I may be damned, but I believe you. I'm starting to think you're just acting like strager in M2. If this ends up biting me later on, I fully deserve it.

Unvote Lucidity

Wojjan wrote:

0_o wrote:

Woah hold on.. when did you get this Jester info?

and more importantly, from who?
And why isn't it in the thread, as it should be?

She said she knows from her role, so I would think it wouldn't be posted in the thread.
I don't know what kind of role can get information like that during the day... unless LS made some crazy new roles, in which case, cool

Alright, there's a few people I want to point out before the day ends.

First, I've got my eye on strager and Lucidity, for their early on claims. Also I was suspicious how long strager kept his random vote on Wojjan, but he took it off recently.

Also, I feel like Echo is acting differently this game. Usually he's all smart and figuring stuff out, but he's been kinda silent this game, so an FOS on Echo for acting weird.

I find adam and thepianist very suspicious for their wishy-washy voting. Adam seemed to switch back and forth off of Echo and other people when they would have the most votes.

Also in this post by thepianist the contents are removed, so I have no idea what happened, but it was enough for Pasonia to vote citing a bandwagon.

I'd still like Wojjan to answer the question
Can you explain why you thought you were at L-1?

But in the end, I'm going to

Vote: adam2046

Because of his wishy-washy voting and because he has bandwagoned on both Echo and Lucidity.

Also, I want to strongly recommend that all night actions be used on Echo.

If you have an investigation, it's important for the town to know if Echo is an evil wolf and going to doom us all.
If you have a protection, it's important that Echo is alive, because Echo is smart and could doom the wolves.
If you have an invite to a secret society, having Echo in there could really give you a boost.
If you have a night kill, you might want to save it. Or you might want to kill Echo on if you think he's a wolf.
If you have a revive, why are you considering a night action?
If you have a voteblock, are you a member of the Mafia?

And in a game of this size, and since I assume almost everyone has a special role, I think it's safe to assume that we have 4 wolves that we're dealing with. Does anyone think otherwise?

Are you sure all night actions should be directed to Echo? If a doctor and mafia both go after him then they cancel eachother out, wasting that night for them, and what if the doctor really is protecting mafia? It seems odd for you saying that everyone should use their action on Echo. But alas, it's not too suspicious so I won't try to pin anything on you.

Why don't we just ask?

Hey Echo, are you a human?

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