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Feen wrote:

Just another small issue I have with the Ouendan series in general is timing. It’s a small thing really, but I’m sure several people have noticed that a full 300 combo is waaaaaaaay too easy.

Timing windows in osu! is adjustable via difficulty settings.

I won't comment on the rest. Let's see what others have to say. Personally I like the ouendan scoring system - its different and interesting. The length of the scores is also no issue when they are on a webpage to compare.

Dude. A few problems I have with your ranting.... >_<

First off, the Nintendo DS doesn't have the capability that a PS2 or even an arcade machine can reproduce. What Ouendan/EBA uses is simple enough that the DS wont explode from doing so many mathmatical equations just to find a score. And doesn't DDR use the same method for combos?


Second, wrong place to throw a temper about it. Find iNIS and e-mail them. We can't change the game, and i don't think Peppy is going to re-code the scoring system to your liking. (I may be wrong though... but still...)

You bring up valid points but i stand in approval of the Ouendan Scoring System.

Ouendan's scoring system sucked. This is a simulator of Ouendan. What do you expect? Just have fun with the game.

Feen wrote:

I've always been interested in the Ouendan series becoming more competitive in general.

I haven't. Hooray for answering and dismissing your entire post with two words.

Evi wrote:

Ouendan's scoring system sucked. This is a simulator of Ouendan. What do you expect? Just have fun with the game.

I think you missed the point of discussion, where I am open to change things like this. Are you saying that you are happy the way it is?

I had a mediocre-long length post here, but I deleted it.

Precision and accuracy wins in the end. The massive bonus from combos are there so that missing notes becomes unacceptable. Harsh, but it works.

As for changes to the scoring system:

*shrugs* Sounds unnecessarily complicated. I just want my shiny S's and my combo fire.

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RemmyX25 wrote:

Dude. A few problems I have with your ranting.... >_<

First off, the Nintendo DS doesn't have the capability that a PS2 or even an arcade machine can reproduce. What Ouendan/EBA uses is simple enough that the DS wont explode from doing so many mathmatical equations just to find a score. And doesn't DDR use the same method for combos?

First, I find it hard to believe that the DS can't reproduce a scoring system that was even reproduced on cell phones. Pocket DDR was a simple dance game simulator which played .sm files and used the same noteskins and scoring system and noteskins as ITG, while keeping a steady framerate. I know it may have sounded complicated when I explained it, but the scoring system is pretty damn simple. What do you take the DS for, anyway?

Second, DDR has a terrible scoring system. ITG is based off of DDR, but it introduced harder songs and the scoring system that we've all heard so much about. Most of the people who have following DDR sincethe beginning have moved to ITG.

RemmyX25 wrote:

Second, wrong place to throw a temper about it. Find iNIS and e-mail them. We can't change the game, and i don't think Peppy is going to re-code the scoring system to your liking. (I may be wrong though... but still...)

Third, I'm not throwing a temper. Not in the least. I may be putting extreme emphasis on certain points, but I'm not swearing at anything, and I'm not throwing my fists up either. Sh*t is serious, so I'ma tell it like it is, that's all.

Fourth, iNIS really has nothing to do with it at this point. It'd be great if they changed their own game up in a few ways, but the way I see it, Osu! is where the real future of this series is at. It isn't wrong to stray from the old formula a bit, after all, certain aspects of the game have already been expanded a bit, as far as step creativity and flexibility is concerned.

Fifth, it's not just "to my liking". Way I see it, this game could use a real competitive community, or at least, real competitive games, and with the current scoring system in place, well. IT AIN'T POSSIBLE(caps for emphasis, don't be intimidated >>). That's all I'm try'na say. I've outlined two of many possible situations in my first post, and I think if you read them, you'd understand completely where I'm coming from. If you didn't, well... Do.

sanchny wrote:

I haven't. Hooray for answering and dismissing your entire post with two words.

Would it hurt? It's not like anything about the gameplay itself would change, so what's the big deal? I honestly don't see how it could make the game anything but better.

RemmyX25 wrote:

I am, at least. Why change something that has worked for 2 years now?

It has only "worked" for casual players. It'd be better to appeal to both ends of the group here.

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I would be happy to make a compromise and figure out a new % scoring system, which was recorded alongside the ouendan score. It could be the osu! score, and the original could be ouen score, or something . Anyway, keep this discussion going - its a topic that really needs more talk before anything can be decided!

Feen wrote:

Second, DDR has a terrible scoring system. ITG is based off of DDR, but it introduced harder songs and the scoring system that we've all heard so much about. Most of the people who have following DDR since the beginning have moved to ITG.

No, most people who have followed DDR since the beginning lost interest gradually, and a few hardcore fans moved on to ITG. Pleasing hardcore fans shouldn't be the top priority, anyway.
The ITG comparison isn't valid, anyway, since there's a whole other element of Tech/PA players vs other styles. It's not just a pure scoring system difference. Plus, ITG is dead.

Feen wrote:

Fifth, it's not just "to my liking". Way I see it, this game could use a real competitive community, or at least, real competitive games, and with the current scoring system in place, well. IT AIN'T POSSIBLE

This page and these pages begs to differ. Honestly it's insulting for you to say that given how much hard work has gone into the program and rankings.


Combos are a valid measure of doing well, not just pure precision like you're proposing. The game rewards consistency (not breaking combo) more than accuracy, which makes sense in terms of cheering the story along. It's not how accurately you cheer, but that you cheer well enough to get as big a combo as possible.

Feen wrote:

That means among the top players of a RHYTHM GAME, the factor that seperates the top 3 from the rest HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RHYTHM AT ALL! Ain't nobody wanna spin a damn wheel... What does it have to do with anything?

They add a new gameplay element. Ouendan is not a pure rhythm game, which is partly why it's done so well. It has other elements that add to the fun, and that includes its stories, characters, and combo-based scoring system.

Guitar Hero's scoring system is similar, and that also has done really well even though you occasionally see "hardcore" rhythm game players bitch about its scoring. You and they take the term "rhythm" game too literally and completely miss the point of why they're popular and people find them fun. Players are still rewarded for doing well, but not in the clear-cut way of measuring only accuracy that you're proposing. You can tell how good someone is based on how they do, but if your scores are close enough, the cloudiness, randomness, and luck that the "broken" scoring system adds keeps it fun and not cutthroat competitive.


There's also an expectation in a simulator to have as many elements as the original as possible, and scoring is one of them. See the Joystiq responses for proof of this. While this type of criticism can be harsh and excessive sometimes, it's still partly valid. And there's a difference between something not implemented yet (like characters/stories) and something deliberately changed to be different from the original.

My impression of the Ouendan scoring system is that it's meant as an incentive to beat your own high scores, rather than compare them with others. I think it works fine the way it is, especially since the actual multiplayer modes use a different method to determine the winner (I think. I didn't play those modes much).

On the other hand, since this version is built around online leaderboards, there is some logic in having a second score for the sake of rankings. I'm not sure if the version Feen described would be ideal, though, because introducing a fixed maximum score (100%) would mean that eventually, all the high scores would be the same score, especially for beatmaps designed with the Ouendan score system in mind.

I suppose you could make it use "Feen Scoring" as the main decider for rankings, and use the Ouendan scoring to break ties.

Good think about ouendan/osu! current scoring is the mod multiplier can also go in the positive - as we add harder difficulty mods, allowing the highest score attainable to soar even higher. I would probably be against changing the primary ranking sort score, but fine with adding a percentage "accuracy" rating on the side.

I have to say that I very much agree with sanchny's post.

Feen, you make some pretty good points about scoring, but cutting a really long argument short, osu! is an emulator of ouendan/EBA, and the current scoring system emulates the scoring system in those games, so it should stay.

One of the reasons why ouendan/EBA/osu! has such a popular following is because it is different from other rhythm games such as DDR. This applies to the unique scoring system as well as some gameplay elements such as the spinner. I don't see what's wrong with the high score emphasis being on combos - it just presents a different sort of challenge from other games, that's all. And that's a good thing.

Thanks for bringing up the point though - we always appreciate constructive criticism.

I personally love the scoring system, if only because it leaves you so satisfied when you've S'ed a song.

Like, AAing something in DDR/ITG is all fun and good, but when you AA* it, it feels so much better. This is similar. Lord knows the hours I played to max out SSAY were well worth it in the end when I shouted in delight and tossed my DS up into the air(Which was in the middle of English, creating interesting reactions). I just think there's great personal satisfaction in the scoring.

That said, percent scoring would make all the scores much closer together, for better or for worse, I think. I'm really interested in how the Ouendan scoring will work once really hard songs start coming up and rocking the community. If no one can full-combo it, it'll be about who can get a certain section the closest to perfect, and some people may be better at section X than section Y, and so on.

A percent would be a nice value to tack on, but ranking should stay on scores.

Manabeast wrote:

..Which was in the middle of English, creating interesting reactions

I lol'd!

I WON'T read all the damn thread because holy walls of text batman but i completely agree with the OP. The thing is, INGAME scoring SHOULDN'T be changed. Why would you do that?
Instead, adding a little "accuracy" sorting on the rankings page would solve all this jazz ;P

I like Kylecito's idea best. Adding an accuracy score parallel to the current one could be a good idea. You could sort the rankings in-game however you want, and the rankings page could allow you to see the rankings as sorted by score and as sorted by accuracy at the same time. Maybe an accuracy percentage could appear in the bottom right of the screen while playing a song. That way, you can strive for whatever you wish: accuracy or consistency. There's probably a much better way to do it, but those are my two cents.

Yeah, Accuracy can be nice to have too. They are 2 separate "stats" so I think they both desserve attention.

I mean, its good to have accuracy scoring, but why would you need it just for "yourself"?
the MOST valid point of scoring is competing against *other* scores, so accuracy would only make a lot of sense on the rankings page.

round[{(300s + spinners) / totalnotes}*100] = first accuracy stat, most relevant on sorting
round[{100s / totalnotes} *100] = second stat, used only in case of a tie


edit: one decimal max would be precise enough imho

Twilight in Zero wrote:

I like Kylecito's idea best. Adding an accuracy score parallel to the current one could be a good idea. You could sort the rankings in-game however you want, and the rankings page could allow you to see the rankings as sorted by score and as sorted by accuracy at the same time. Maybe an accuracy percentage could appear in the bottom right of the screen while playing a song. That way, you can strive for whatever you wish: accuracy or consistency. There's probably a much better way to do it, but those are my two cents.

This'd be perfect. It'd appeal to everyone, mos def. I can't really think of a much better way to do it, anyway.

I have to admit that the Ouendan scoring sort of gets to me. It's annoying that someone who'd miss once in the middle on of the song would get half the points compared to someone who misses 10 but only has those misses on the last phase. It gets to me to the point that I might just restart a song in the middle of it because I know I'd have no chance of improving my score in it.

A bit of linearity into the score system would do wonders (or at least a reduction to how much the beat points increase when comboing), or like Feen suggested, a percentage system. Although what would be the percentage of a spinner, then? Or would the bonus of a spinner make the percentage over 100%?

If you're going to have a separate accuracy stat, bonus points from spinners shouldn't contribute to it at all, I don't think. As long as the spinner is completed, that's all that should matter.

peppy wrote:

Good think about ouendan/osu! current scoring is the mod multiplier can also go in the positive - as we add harder difficulty mods, allowing the highest score attainable to soar even higher.

Now I may seem to have a problem with pretty much everything about Ouendan now, but I really don't like the idea of adding bonus points for modifiers. I wasn't against the Hidden mod being there in the first place, fact I think it's pretty tight. I just never liked the idea of being forced to use a mod in order to obtain the highest score. Mods are a good idea, and the more the merrier, but they should be optional, unlike in Ouendan 2. It's all about preference, and shoot some people might even prefer Hidden over normal play. That doesn't mean that they should be able to pull ahead on some ol' bull, it always just seemed a bit cheap.

I'm definitely for adding bonus multipliers for harder modes. Extra challenge is always a good thing. They would be small but noticeable in close competition (1.05-1.10 per mod? not 100% sure). Feedback is welcome on this but I'm pretty sure it will happen at some point.

please at least make it only for "dynamic" mods... as some sort of random, moving notes, etc etc.

as a rhythm game, giving a bonus for "hidden" would be pretty crappy, as it'd only involve memory

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no, but then you could add a bonus for playing a song a thousand times and it'd wouldn't be any different

Kylecito wrote:

no, but then you could add a bonus for playing a song a thousand times and it'd wouldn't be any different

Hey maybe we could even do that - your score increases depending on how many times you play a song!

OK, I'm joking. But I don't see the problem with adding a bonus for actually trying harder to play a song with more effort/skill than otherwise required.

well you're basically making it even HARDER to get a nice ranked score for the majority of us who can't S most songs by giving the pros a chance to get their 99999999 score by playing with hidden moving notes while having their arms tied and playing with their tongue (this is an example!!)

Kylecito wrote:

well you're basically making it even HARDER to get a nice ranked score for the majority of us who can't S most songs by giving the pros a chance to get their 99999999 score by playing with hidden moving notes while having their arms tied and playing with their tongue (this is an example!!)

Sounds fine by me. Better than limiting the pros at a capped maximum. The distribution range will increase but the order won't.

Out of curiosity, is there an upper limit on the score achievable?

The thing is those are 'fun' mods. I don't think it's fair to integrate them into the normal ranking, as most people surely won't care about perfecting on shiny mods. You're segregating an small community even more

chan wrote:

Out of curiosity, is there an upper limit on the score achievable?

Nope. Although that counter won't be happy if you go over 99,999,999 .

Kylecito wrote:

The thing is those are 'fun' mods. I don't think it's fair to integrate them into the normal ranking, as most people surely won't care about perfecting on shiny mods. You're segregating an small community even more

I don't follow. Segregating because there are more "numbers" between scores? Is 5-10% increase in some of the top10 scores is going to cause anything other than more competition? We've already seen quite a few songs get perfected - I'd like to see things go further than perfection.

In the interest of science, I attempted to make a beatmap that would "break" this 99,999,999 threshold using the following procedure
Step 1: Edit a new song
Step 2: Set the bpm to the max
Step 3: Set slider velocity to the minimum
Step 4: Set tick rate to the max
Step 5: Create a REALLY short slider (don't forget 1/8th beat snapping, or even no beatsnapping!)
Step 6: Go to the timeline and create an insane number of returns
Step 7: Sit back and watch as Osu! chews up all of your memory
Step 8: Use windows task manager to close Osu! and flame me :(

Perhaps if it made it, I could have tried playing my stupid beatmap and broken that threshold...

Yeah, you're making better players even harder to reach for normal people ;P
You're gonna get 2 pages of S insane hidden random shiny blinky records and 10 of people who can barely full combo it.

Well, at this point it doesn't matter anymore, i wanna know what the rest think about this! If they're ok with the idea, i'm not gonna argue!


edit: lol chan, post it please

peppy wrote:

I don't follow. Segregating because there are more "numbers" between scores? Is 5-10% increase in some of the top10 scores is going to cause anything other than more competition? We've already seen quite a few songs get perfected - I'd like to see things go further than perfection.

I could use another reason to play Summer Festival again other than optimizing spinner bonuses >:o

I guess you should have a sorting option of ranks and allow viewers to view by rank/pure score/%300s/mods etc (kinda like what's done for the beatmap listing).

Love to post it, but my computer's too busy processing :( Might leave it for another hour or 2 but will probably have to shut it down before i can save my "work" and package/distribute. Feel free to try it for yourself though

sanchny wrote:

Feen wrote:

Fifth, it's not just "to my liking". Way I see it, this game could use a real competitive community, or at least, real competitive games, and with the current scoring system in place, well. IT AIN'T POSSIBLE

This page and these pages begs to differ. Honestly it's insulting for you to say that given how much hard work has gone into the program and rankings

Woah woah woah, hold up. I know I'm late on this, but are you saying that just 'cause those people have uploaded their scores means that they don't think the scoring system could be improved? I mean, damn, let's be real. You could be sure that I'ma have a couple scores up myself, but that doesn't mean I like the scoring system. There are several people at other ranking sites that would say the same thing. They just post scores because it's the only way for them to see where they are in the ranks, even if they know it's total bs.

And now I'm mad, shoot. Actin' like I'm try'na downtalk the whole damn program. Get that outta here.

peppy wrote:

Kylecito wrote:

The thing is those are 'fun' mods. I don't think it's fair to integrate them into the normal ranking, as most people surely won't care about perfecting on shiny mods. You're segregating an small community even more

I don't follow. Segregating because there are more "numbers" between scores? Is 5-10% increase in some of the top10 scores is going to cause anything other than more competition? We've already seen quite a few songs get perfected - I'd like to see things go further than perfection.

It just seems like pulling ahead of someone who did better than you because just because you're using a mod is a cheap shot. Hidden didn't add all that much difficulty, and the ridiculously high bonus that came from it wasn't warrented at all. Also, like I said before, some people prefer mods, either to show off or to just take a break from the "plain ol' boring mess". Mods shouldn't be much more than a personal challenge, because in the end, people play just as well with mods as they do without, but they should be able to prefer to play either way without being penalized or rewarded.

In the context of a one-player self-competitive game, multipliers for mods like "hidden" make a lot of sense. How am I ever going to beat my own high score, which I got in normal mode, when I'm now using a mod that makes the game harder? The multiplier gives you incentive to use the mod because it allows you to beat your old scores.

That said, I'd be in favor of only having a relatively small multiplier for the mod in a competitive community. Something that's enough that, for roughly equal performance, the "hidden" player will rank slightly higher, but not so much that it's totally unbalanced.

I do agree that the people who know the songs well enough to do the "hidden" mod are the same people who'd have ridiculously high scores anyway.

Actually, hold up. Why not just have mods have separate score lists, as they're essentially a separate difficulty? That would solve most issues with them.

That would have more than 20 different combinations of mods/difficulties.

If you have a song with 4 difficulties x 3 mods (there are 2 ATM). That already makes 12 different combinations... I don't think that would be useful, I prefer something like score x 1.05 for each mod you use and that's all.

Why should mods even be ranked in the first place? If you're using easy mode or no fail, you don't get to be on the list. If you're so high and mighty that you can use OVER 9000 mods and pass, you don't get to be on the list either.

Just a thought.

I, personally, enjoy the scoring system that is currently implemented in Osu!, although the idea of adding some kind of accuracy percentage as a secondary score (similar to how combo is displayed) would be fine, that is more or less already done in the current rankings, as it lists the overall accuracy of beats anyway.

I also think that adding extra points for difficulty increasers seems reasonable, though I'm not sure that every modifier necessarily deserves them, in particular hidden seems like a poor choice for adding points if you ask me.

Bring it in.

After many many hours spent playing Ouendan/EBA with my friends at college I've learnt to hate(but tolerate) the absolutely awful scoring system it uses. A new and improved scoring system would be a nice change. To be honest,I don't care that much about the ouendan simulator being altered so long as gameplay stays how it is. The ouendan experience won't change if a better scoring system is implemented, and in my opinion it really wouldn't hurt to put a new one in.

It's as Feen says, it really really sucks when you have 2 misses and only 7 100s in a song and yet your friend with 4 misses and just as many 100s manages to beat you.

Of course, the scoring system could work differently in multiplayer ouendan so I could just be speaking rubbish.

>_>

I quite like the OP's suggestions, since they can only make a good game even better.

As for the whole "HIDDAEN MOAD" argument, I think that both sides of the debate would be satisfied with having two rankings lists for each song - one for normal play, and one for hidden. This way, the hardcore players get their recognition, while the people who struggle to place in the top 15 such as myself can get by.

DepressedStone wrote:

I quite like the OP's suggestions, since they can only make a good game even better.

As for the whole "HIDDAEN MOAD" argument, I think that both sides of the debate would be satisfied with having two rankings lists for each song - one for normal play, and one for hidden. This way, the hardcore players get their recognition, while the people who struggle to place in the top 15 such as myself can get by.

You realise hidden won't change this? The ranking order will be identical . I think we already established this in the conversation earlier on.

Anyways, as an update on this front, I will look at adding an accuracy based scoring system at some point in the near future (once I get a few other things off my plate) as a secondary listing option. The primary scoring will remain as ranked score OUEN style, though.