Hey there, I've been advised to make a thread because I've been really surprised and, should I say, upset by one of the new changes for Taiko difficulties. Link to the post I'm talking about.

But first of all, I'll say this: I agree wholeheartedly with Taiko-only maps being rankable. I also think that maps containing 2 or more Taiko maps are to be encouraged.

However, I disagree strongly that one-Taiko diff-mapsets are now unrankable, and for a number of reasons.

1- Songs are not always suited to have two taiko difficulties, although this is not often the case, it exists and happens every so often.
2- Mappers are going to refuse guest taiko difficulties because it means that they will have to find another one for their mapset to be rankable.
3- This is going to be incredibly tedious for mapsets - not everyone wants to make two Taiko difficulties for their map, and getting a guest Taiko difficulty isn't as easy as it might seem.
4- This doesn't help spread - For all you know, someone might map a Taiko Oni and an Inner Oni, which means beginners still don't get to have their own Taiko difficulty (which I guess is why this rule was implemented)
5- Easier taiko difficulties (Kantan, Futsuu, and sometimes Muzukashii) can easily and accurately be reproduced by playing the standard map in Taiko. Although you might get some problems such as the Slider Velocity being off or the difficulty settings being different (low HP, OD, etc.), it's more than enough for beginners to get started with this mode.

All in all, I don't see why it's now unrankable to have only ONE taiko map per mapset, especially since you can have NONE and have your map be entirely rankable. If this rule was to promote a better spread for Taiko, then fair enough. However, this seriously cripples Taiko mappers and maps in general in my opinion. I think mapsets with only one taiko map should still be rankable, but multiple taiko maps should be encouraged, and not forced.

That's pretty much it for me. To conclude, I have asked if there was public discussion available about this topic, and apparently there was none, which means regular taiko mappers other than arken1015, wmfchris, and others that might be XAT have not been able to discuss this rule before it was enforced. I think that's pretty bad if we, taiko mappers, have to follow new directions like that, especially when the previous directions were reasonable and made total sense.

If you agree or disagree with this, I'd love to hear your opinion. I hope like hell this can be changed, because, once again, in my opinion, mapsets with one taiko difficulty are completely fine and should not be unrankable.

EDIT 07/11: Edited the title from "New Ranking Criteria for Taiko maps!?" to "Necessary 2-Taiko diffs rule discussion" as the rule has been instated for several months.

Mr Color wrote:

1- Songs are not always suited to have two taiko difficulties, although this is not often the case, it exists and happens every so often.

If a song has the capacity for one Taiko diff, it will naturally have the capacity for a second. Would you like to show us an example of when this isn't true?

Mr Color wrote:

2- Mappers are going to refuse guest taiko difficulties because it means that they will have to find another one for their mapset to be rankable.
3- This is going to be incredibly tedious for mapsets - not everyone wants to make two Taiko difficulties for their map, and getting a guest Taiko difficulty isn't as easy as it might seem.

You're looking at the mapper with the "Oh, I wanna do the bare minimum to get a map ranked." That's not the attitude the community wants.

Mr Color wrote:

4- This doesn't help spread - For all you know, someone might map a Taiko Oni and an Inner Oni, which means beginners still don't get to have their own Taiko difficulty (which I guess is why this rule was implemented)

This rule's implementation isn't the cause of this problem; if Taiko Oni and Inner Oni were both mapped before this rule's implementation, it'd be the same problem, but you would not have brought this up.

Mr Color wrote:

5- Easier taiko difficulties (Kantan, Futsuu, and sometimes Muzukashii) can easily and accurately be reproduced by playing the standard map in Taiko. Although you might get some problems such as the Slider Velocity being off or the difficulty settings being different (low HP, OD, etc.), it's more than enough for beginners to get started with this mode.

While we don't deny that easier Taiko diffs can be reproduced by transferring the Standard to Taiko, it rarely will be a good [enough] representation of what Taiko actually is.

Mr Color wrote:

mapsets with one taiko difficulty are completely fine and should not be unrankable.

Have you considered why single difficulty Standard mapsets are not fine?

Mr Color wrote:

1- Songs are not always suited to have two taiko difficulties, although this is not often the case, it exists and happens every so often.
2- Mappers are going to refuse guest taiko difficulties because it means that they will have to find another one for their mapset to be rankable.
3- This is going to be incredibly tedious for mapsets - not everyone wants to make two Taiko difficulties for their map, and getting a guest Taiko difficulty isn't as easy as it might seem.

I don't really disagree with you, but those arguments doesn't really works.

1-No song suited to be mapped with a single difficulty ( let's say, "Easy only") exist. Song that can't have Insanes do exist, but you can still map 3-4 easier diffs.
2-diffs thresold is 8 diffs
3-Getting a guest Taiko is, instead, a joke. Call Ono and kpy, for example. If they like the song they will accept. Most Only-Taiko mappers will easily accept

@Those 1. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/52360

2-3. That's not gonna prevent many, many mappers from thinking "oh, x guy wants to make a Taiko difficulty for me. Well, I'll have to refuse it, because I'm going to have to find another one then. Since I really don't care about Taiko at all, I'll just have no Taiko difficulty, and not bother." and be completely right. What I'm getting at here is: the number of maps featuring taiko difficulties is going to decrease rather drastically.

4. This isn't a problem to me. If the rule wasn't here, you could have either only your Taiko Oni or your Taiko Oni AND another Taiko. Either way it WOULD be fine and would NOT cause any problem whatsoever.

5. Like I said, it's good enough for beginners to familiarize themselves with the mode, the patterns, the button setup, and so on. Either way, it shouldn't a reason why having only one Taiko is unrankable.

those wrote:

Have you considered why single difficulty Standard mapsets are not fine?

That's not the same at all and I wonder why you're comparing the two. People register on osu! to play osu!, not to play Taiko. Taiko is an added feature, and not the main game and as such, it shouldn't have as strict ranking criteria (like how many taiko difficulties are required for a mapset to be rankable) as the standard mode. Even if it were, then, by that logic, how do you explain the fact that having only one CtB difficulty on a mapset is rankable? If single Taiko and standard mapsets aren't fine, why should CtB be fine then? (I know why, don't bother explaining)

//////////////////////////////

@HakuNoKaemi
1. Like I said before, Standard and Taiko can't be compared. There really isn't a lot of room for changing Taiko maps except deleting beats. If we want to have good, solid, consistant, fun Taiko maps, forcing 2 Taiko difficulties is going to be really hard for mappers.
2. It's not the issue, in my opinion. Mappers who weren't going to look for Taiko difficulties are not going to accept a Taiko difficulty knowing that they will eventually have to fish for another one even though they don't care about Taiko.
3. If you're a new mapper, and you're mapping a relatively obscure song (any English song will do, almost), good luck getting a Taiko difficulty, let alone two. I won't deny that there are proficient Taiko mappers around, but they shouldn't have to map two difficulties where just one would do the trick.

Mr Color wrote:

1- Songs are not always suited to have two taiko difficulties, although this is not often the case, it exists and happens every so often.

I have to agree. I tried to make a Muzukashii or a Futsuu for this map and just couldn't.

Mr Color wrote:

2- Mappers are going to refuse guest taiko difficulties because it means that they will have to find another one for their mapset to be rankable.

I call it laziness.

Mr Color wrote:

3- This is going to be incredibly tedious for mapsets - not everyone wants to make two Taiko difficulties for their map, and getting a guest Taiko difficulty isn't as easy as it might seem.

There is a lot of taiko mappers who makes good and easy taiko diffs. I think it will not be a huge problem.

Mr Color wrote:

4- This doesn't help spread - For all you know, someone might map a Taiko Oni and an Inner Oni, which means beginners still don't get to have their own Taiko difficulty (which I guess is why this rule was implemented)

Yeah, you're right.

Mr Color wrote:

5- Easier taiko difficulties (Kantan, Futsuu, and sometimes Muzukashii) can easily and accurately be reproduced by playing the standard map in Taiko. Although you might get some problems such as the Slider Velocity being off or the difficulty settings being different (low HP, OD, etc.), it's more than enough for beginners to get started with this mode.

You're right again, but having specific maps is always better. For now, converted standard maps are fine.

Mr Color wrote:

All in all, I don't see why it's now unrankable to have only ONE taiko map per mapset, especially since you can have NONE and have your map be entirely rankable. If this rule was to promote a better spread for Taiko, then fair enough. However, this seriously cripples Taiko mappers and maps in general in my opinion. I think mapsets with only one taiko map should still be rankable, but multiple taiko maps should be encouraged, and not forced.

Have to agree. Yes, it is better to have easier difficulties if the song is suitable for it. Isn't so easy to make a Kantan for a 220 bpm song without making a boring map, for example. Forcing is stupid imo.

Well my opinion is: If the song is low-med bpm there is no problem in making easier difficulties and I've seen a lof of mapsets already with Muzukashii. Forcing mappers to make it will result in badly mapped diffs because "ah, I need to make something easier so I'll map a random easy map to get my mapset ranked" or something like that.

Mr Color wrote:

@Those 1. http://osu.ppy.sh/s/52360

well, you can't make "harder than" in this case, but it shouldn't be hard to follow a single instrument instead of either

But still

Shouldn't we have discussed it in the "New Rules" section before adding it as rules?

I want to focus people's attention on one thing here: it's the fact that we force maps to have two Taiko difficulties that irks me. I have never seen anyone complain about the fact that there too many "one Taiko diff" mapsets. And even if it were the case, wouldn't it be a better idea to promote them, instead of forcing them, which would still give mappers a choice on how they want to arrange their mapset and spread, but also make them think that they would benefit from having multiple Taiko difficulties.

This was a Decree Rule applied without Users feedback (neither experienced nor good)

Mr Color wrote:

I want to focus people's attention on one thing here: it's the fact that we force maps to have two Taiko difficulties that irks me. I have never seen anyone complain about the fact that there too many "one Taiko diff" mapsets. And even if it were the case, wouldn't it be a better idea to promote them, instead of forcing them, which would still give mappers a choice on how they want to arrange their mapset and spread, but also make them think that they would benefit from having multiple Taiko difficulties.

That's my thought.

I am starting to play Taiko and I find converted difficulties horribly bad to learn. I play and learn much better with specific easier taiko diffs, however they are too few.

Just throwing this here.

Mapping easier Taiko difficulties is extremely easy and usually only takes 5 to 10 minutes:

1. Set divisor to either 1/1 or 1/2, depending on the difficulty and song.
2. Play song.
3. Click to an appropriate rhythm while the song is playing.
4. Go back and add blues and finishes as deemed necessary.

And yes, this is a "correct" way to do it. If you have a decent sense of rhythm then it pretty much ensures that you'll get a map that plays naturally. Don't worry about it being "too easy" or "boring"; those things aren't an issue for newbies.

That's all I wanted to add, really; I'm pretty neutral on this topic. Continue arguing, please; it's really quite entertaining. *grabs popcorn*

EDIT: Also, what BD said. I'm still neutral, though, 'cuz I'm lazy.

EDIT2: To elaborate on my viewpoint more...

On one hand, it's not something unreasonable to ask of mappers, and as BD pointed out, easier standard diffs often convert like shit.

On the other hand, many mappers are inherently lazy, so what Color said also applies.

I agree with color so much, there is no way this should be forced. You are just going to butcher more mapsets with uneeded diffs, and put more strain on the mappers on getting things ranked.

Now I'm not saying that and easier diff isn't needed, of course it is, but not always.
I don't see why players can't look at the taiko and suggest there be and easier difficulty if the oni is a bit to hard. Just for an example things like this would apply to most beatmania songs, because in most cases they have a complex or hard taiko due to the way the song it's self plays out. They usually have a quick pace and complex melodies that can be hard to play in taiko.

But then when you go and look at the more simple songs, stuff like tv size maps where you just have a minute or so of a simple beat and nothing too complex. (yes there are some hard tv size songs) Most of those Oni's are very straight forward and easy to pick up just because of how the song plays out. You don't get the sort of crazy sounding melodies, patterns, etc. (And in most cases TV size maps converted into taiko are nice for beginners because of how most mappers map tv size songs. Sticking to the backbeat but mixing in the vocals and such. I know not every map is like that but the majority are.)

So all in all, I think if people would actually look into the song and how it is mapped in taiko instead of just calling it hard. You would get more of an understanding of if a map is technically hard or correct to the tone of the song.

I also don't think converted maps should be counted out in this situation. If a hard or an insane plays nice in taiko and is easier than the oni, why would you need another taiko map? Converted maps are great for newer players, of course they only help you get to a certin skill point but it is a very nice start to understanding some patterns. (Depending on how the hitsounds are.)

Gotta agree with the disagrees. If anything, I think this'll create less interest in taiko maps. Forcing it doesn't seem appropriate, and will only cause more strain on getting maps ranked.

oh ty very much MMzz, you pointed everything I was lazy to type.

MMzz wrote:

I also don't think converted maps should be counted out in this situation. If a hard or an insane plays nice in taiko and is easier than the oni, why would you need another taiko map? Converted maps are great for newer players, of course they only help you get to a certin skill point but it is a very nice start to understanding some patterns. (Depending on how the hitsounds are.)

I fully disagree with this. I cannot find many good converted maps to learn. They DO exist, but if I have a lot of trouble to find a good one, then this IS a problem to be noted. Saying something like "converted maps are even better for newbies to learn and when they're good enough they'll be able to play the muzu/onis we map" is basically saying a 'fuck you, not gonna map anything for you' to the newbies. It's good to play Kantan / Futsuu difficulty that is specialized to be intuitive on Taiko, instead of a completely unrelated converted difficulty.

After some consideration, I agree that forcing it is not a good idea. However, it should be encouraged and setting it as a guideline seems to be the best option here.

By the way, non-specific taiko maps absolutely will not teach you how to play onis. There needs to be a widespread effort in making easier maps definitely. But that's besides the point and it's not relevant to the issue at hand.

nah, there is no way this is a bad thing. pointless taiko onis have been included in maps for years and sometimes only see upwards of 100 plays on a map that potentially has tens of thousands of standard plays - and this is not because of the different gamemode either.

the taiko community has never properly spent the time or effort involved in creating viable difficulty spreads for newer players to get involved without having to use converted maps for practice. since nobody took the initiative to change this, we had to force the change. it's a bit late to speak out about this now, frankly, when i am fairly certain everybody in this thread so far was aware of the state of things.

i am all for encouraging the death of this pointless one-taiko-oni epidemic. there is a simple way around this new criteria - follow it and map a muzukashii/futsuu as well as your oni.

if there should be 2 taiko difficulties for non-pro players (ex/ taiko muzukashii , taiko oni) , why you guys ignore Taiko beginners ? there should be Kantan and futsuu then this is ridiculous..

EDIT : Also this rule affects mappers who get maximum 8 diffs on their map. when this rule is activated, they should delete 1 standard difficulty if they already have 1 taiko diff

EDIT 2 : And What if there are 1 taiko oni and 1 Muzukashii (Taikosu) ? is that map unrankable then?

overall, i think this rule is quite unreasonable but if this rule is activated , there should be muxh more specific rules for this which i mentioned above.

Mr Color wrote:

4- This doesn't help spread - For all you know, someone might map a Taiko Oni and an Inner Oni, which means beginners still don't get to have their own Taiko difficulty (which I guess is why this rule was implemented)

I think this is not the sense behind of this new rule.
Anyway, I fully agree with Ekaru's Post. Standard Easy/Normal Diffs are mostly fast done and it's pretty much the same for Kantan/Futsuu.

Mr Color wrote:

5- Easier taiko difficulties (Kantan, Futsuu, and sometimes Muzukashii) can easily and accurately be reproduced by playing the standard map in Taiko. Although you might get some problems such as the Slider Velocity being off or the difficulty settings being different (low HP, OD, etc.), it's more than enough for beginners to get started with this mode.

Err.. the problem behind of this is that a lot of Easy Diffs has much more yellow Sliders then Dons or Kats.
And spamming them is not the way to learn.

Reisen Udongein wrote:

if there should be 2 taiko difficulties for non-pro players (ex/ taiko muzukashii , taiko oni) , why you guys ignore Taiko beginners ? there should be Kantan and futsuu then this is ridiculous..

Not every song is suitable for making easy difficulties.

Also no one said "we will not map easier difficulties because the standard ones are okay for newbies and I only care about pros, fuk dat shit"
But we just shouldn't forget some good converted standard maps (at least I think that's what MMzz meant to say)
Specifc maps are obviously WAY better than converted, no one said they aren't and yes we NEED more of them.
And

Sync wrote:

After some consideration, I agree that forcing it is not a good idea. However, it should be encouraged and setting it as a guideline seems to be the best option here.

[Luanny PhNyx] wrote:

But we just shouldn't forget some good converted standard maps

keyword: some

if there are just 'some', then there is something seriously wrong
no one is expected to start playing 1 or 2 specific maps then going to onis

I really don't see the purpose of this move. As far as I understand, a mapset with Taiko Oni and Taiko Inner Oni is still rankable (since Taiko Oni is an 'easier diff' compared to Taiko Inner Oni). How is this going to help solve what you see as the problem?

Blue Dragon wrote:

if there are just 'some', then there is something seriously wrong

No, there's nothing wrong here. Standard maps wasn't made to be played on taiko, >BUUUUT< some of them are good.
The only thing that is really wrong here is: the lack of easy taiko difficulties.
Standard converted maps were mentioned before but again, no one said they are better.

Also yea KRZY, I think with the "easier diff" must be a Muzukashii or Futsuu (not sure if Kantan is really necessary) to be ranked
Well, that wasn't well explained so I don't know D:
If a mapset with Oni and Inner oni can be ranked because Oni is easier, then this is really pointless imo. D:

Ephemeral wrote:

nah, there is no way this is a bad thing. pointless taiko onis have been included in maps for years and sometimes only see upwards of 100 plays on a map that potentially has tens of thousands of standard plays - and this is not because of the different gamemode either.

the taiko community has never properly spent the time or effort involved in creating viable difficulty spreads for newer players to get involved without having to use converted maps for practice. since nobody took the initiative to change this, we had to force the change. it's a bit late to speak out about this now, frankly, when i am fairly certain everybody in this thread so far was aware of the state of things.

i am all for encouraging the death of this pointless one-taiko-oni epidemic. there is a simple way around this new criteria - follow it and map a muzukashii/futsuu as well as your oni.

To be honest we were too conservative about making changes before. Seems these BAT guys want us to hurry up. Ephemeral criticized Taiko community about that and I cannot say this is wrong but I also want to add some excuse about this.

At first I called that 'this pointless one-taiko-oni epidemic' as a 'renaissance'. (Don't get me wrong, that was the time when Taiko mappers starting to adding Taiko guest diffs.) But these days, I also know that lots of similar low-quality maps are made and someone called that as epidemic, *sigh*.

We had to compromise between desires of Taiko community and demand of standard mapset owners. Some standard mappers are eager to add more Taiko diffs but while some are not. ('I don't like too many diffs', they said.) I always wanted to encourage Taiko mappers to make more easier diffs for a long time and eventually make it forced, but I was also afraid of shrinking of Taiko mapping due to more restrictions. Some radical changes might solve this problem, like current rule change, but we couldn't do that cause we lack power, we always fight back to moves to force restrictions and that was all. I think this can be a great chance to solve this problems without shrinking of Taiko mapping since those BATs gave us a big freedom and a big restrictions both. (Actually Taiko stand-alone mapset was ultimate goal of Taiko mappers in osu!, but for a long time we believed those BATs were quite negative about this, I guess that was wrong.)

And I also want to say that we did something to solve this problem too. At least some high and mighty Taiko mappers tried to adding more Taiko muzukashii but general Taiko mappers, nah, they didn't follow that too much.

...but I'm upset cause nobody ever talked about this change to me before. And I'm a bit worry cause Taiko community might not be ready for this. Also I'm quite afraid of complete separation of Taiko mapping and standard osu! mapping.

Not sure about this, honestly.
A lot of MATs/BATs still don't mod Taiko.

@^: That is why I'm worried too, already lots of workload and qualification for being Taiko modder.

Easy Taiko maps are not needed, I'd rather have more difficult ones actually approved or ranked rather than having a thousand of unsubmitted maps and a huge .txt file with the links. We have a TBT which after spending a week of playing taiko you can switch to oni 8* with no mods or to oni 10* with half time or easy, what's the point? After a month of playing properly, and when I mean playing properly is learning patterns and training them, you will not even touch anything below oni diff. Or one month is a huge learning curve nowadays?

Incidentally, what if I only add a Taiko Futsuu/Muzukashii? Will I have to add another diff - accounting that most of the reasons behind this change is that Taiko Oni may be too hard.

The reason you now need 2 taiko diffs per mixed mapset is the same reason you need 2 Standard diffs minimum, considering Taiko alone is rankable now, you now have the option of Standard mapset, Taiko mapset, or mixed, same way you cant get ranked a Taiko mapset with a single difficulty (unless it's a Marathon) mixed mapsets need at least 2 of each.

Idk where everyone drew the idea that EVERY SINGLE MAP would require a Futsuu, starting from Muzukashii is fine if the map includes an osu! easy, convertion needs some fixes first, something related to drumrolls, although im not sure when will that happen but we're aware of it.

The only problem i see here is in the Taiko modding part, however i think that the fact that Taiko stand-alone is rankable now, plus the forcing of more than 1 Taiko diff per mapset if they want a mixed one should attract new Taiko players, and in turn Taiko mappers and modders. If you think you could do a good job at modding Taiko, direct your efforts into modding Standard as well and who knows, maybe you'll end up into one of the approval teams

Sakura wrote:

The reason you now need 2 taiko diffs per mixed mapset is the same reason you need 2 Standard diffs minimum

No offense, but did you read the thread beforehand? I explained why these two modes shouldn't ever be compared. In case you didn't, I reckon you should.

Sakura wrote:

the forcing of more than 1 Taiko diff per mapset if they want a mixed one should attract new Taiko players, and in turn Taiko mappers and modders

In a perfect world, maybe. The reality is very different. As I've stated before, standard mappers who receive a Taiko Guest Difficulty won't accept them anymore because that will force them to find another one. I've talked about this rule to a few standard mappers and EVERY one of them had this reaction.

Sakura wrote:

Idk where everyone drew the idea that EVERY SINGLE MAP would require a Futsuu, starting from Muzukashii is fine if the map includes an osu! easy

As I stated in the first page, certain songs hardly allow multiple difficulties (Her Majesty is a great example, but I could get you a bunch of others). I'm all for encouraging mappers to have multiple Taiko difficulties in their mapsets. Forcing them, however, now that is a huge step down. How about making a case-by-case option, since you WILL need XATs to get your map ranked eventually. They might as well tell the mapper "You know, you could use another Taiko difficulty, we can work on that trying to find mappers that are motivated to make you another Taiko diff and whatnot" instead of locking their hands behind their back. Between the choice of having either 0 or 2 taiko diffs, what do you think mappers are going to take? They don't want to bother with difficulties about a mode they don't care about! Some mappers even refuse having a single Taiko difficulty in their mapset, so 2 difficulties? The number of Taiko maps is going to decrease drastically.

Encourage, don't force.

PS: I didn't see any discussion about this rule, and I've been informed that it hasn't really been talked about inside the XAT either. Is there a reason for this? Why do we not have any control about the ranking criteria when we are the mappers? Why wasn't there any public discussion about this before this rule was forced? This decision really disappoints me, to be honest.
The fact that this thread exists and that it got support just shows that we, the Taiko Community, disapprove of this rule. Please ask us, or at least inform us, before forcing rules behind our backs next time.

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but Taiko isn't a special child and it deserves the same treatment as Standard when it comes to ranking, this comes with it's pros and cons, and all of you guys are just focusing on the cons.

Instead of focusing on Negative things, think of the positive things this change will bring to mapsets.

So we should just accept to let one-diff Taiko mapsets go, and not care about the bad consequences and focus on the "good things" (other than better spreads I really don't see any more assets to this) that the rule is supposed to bring?

I refuse.

This shouldn't be a sacrifice. We shouldn't have to forget about a large number of cons just because there are pros (that I don't deny, as stated in OP). How about this: We get rid of the negative things, and we keep the positive things, and we do this through discussing what would be best, in public, with taiko mappers, players, and all in all members of the Taiko community. In your signature, you're saying "Teamwork is the fuel that allows common people to attain uncommon results". Let's attain that uncommon result. Let's use teamwork. And let's not content ourselves of a flawed rule, just because "it has positive aspects".

And I am sorry, but Taiko is indeed a special child and does deserve a different treatment than standard. You want them to have the same treatment? Make standard difficulties unavailable for other modes besides standard. Don't actually do it though. That would be a bad thing.

I can't believe that I'm being told to just sit down and accept something while I and other people have pointed out exactly why it's not a good idea, why it fails, and most specifically, HOW to make it better. Especially since the rule in question was apparently barely (if at all) discussed.

I haven't seen anything other than worries about mappers that dont want to submit multiple taiko difficulties in their mapset, or "this map doesnt go well with easier diffs", those arguments are very weak, and won't hold out. Do you have any other arguments other than that?

Edit: Oh btw, if Standard > Taiko transition has issues, either bug/feature request it, rather than set/remove rules about it.

Read the thread thoroughly. There are many a good point made. I think a potential decrease of Taiko maps in mapsets is a pretty strong argument if we want to make Taiko more available to players, for example.

If said arguments are "weak and won't hold out", I'm still waiting for you to tell me why, and counter them. Besides;

Sakura wrote:

all of you guys are just focusing on the cons.

You admitted yourself that the rule has cons, rightfully so. That's what I'm trying to get rid of. Not the rule itself. Sync brought up a great idea about this becoming a guideline instead. Why can't this be considered?

By the way, do you have any arguments why this should be forced rather than encouraged?

Let me interfere a bit. First I want to say that this was a bit fast and the internal discussion was not really deep. Whatsoever I was surprised you guys pushed this through without considering public's opinion (and Sakura, you intended this in the first)

Transfer rate from Easy Standard to Easy Taiko can be fixed (for upcoming beatmaps) so the drumroll spam ends.

Since standalone mapsets are rankable now, you are not dependent from standard mapset owners anymore. If mappers refuse to accept your muzuu/oni in their mapset, create another Kantan and throw it in as seperated rankable mapset. I am just worried about the modding process. The team need more reinforcement in order to compensate the lack of taiko modding skill within standalone taiko mapsets.

Loctav wrote:

I am just worried about the modding process. The team need more reinforcement in order to compensate the lack of taiko modding skill within standalone taiko mapsets.

Can't say I disagree; recently I've seen a number of bubbled mapsets with Taiko diffs that have had two or fewer mods (yes, zero is fewer than two). We're working on it.

I don't think encouraging remapping is the way to go, to be honest. You would end up with a Standard-only map and a Taiko-only map where they could easily be merged. Plus this would encourage shabby easier difficulties to be made in order to rank the targeted difficulty (here, the Oni/Muzukashii).

Sakura wrote:

Oh btw, if Standard > Taiko transition has issues, either bug/feature request it, rather than set/remove rules about it.

Exactly. Why are you trying to force people to add additional Taiko diffs for every single mapset when, even if bugged, the Standard > Taiko transition offers good maps to learn the basics ? I'm not saying that Taiko Muzukashii difficulties are useless, but forcing them is stupid.

Sakura wrote:

I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but Taiko isn't a special child and it deserves the same treatment as Standard when it comes to ranking, this comes with it's pros and cons, and all of you guys are just focusing on the cons.

Should we treat CtB diffs the same way then ?

Sakura wrote:

Instead of focusing on Negative things, think of the positive things this change will bring to mapsets.

We're focusing on them because we hope to reach an agreement to make them disappear...

Well, trash mapsets won't be ranked, if we could trust more in the modding/ranking process. Then this 'throwing a random easy in' won't work. This doesnt work on Standard, too.
And yes, surely they could be merged. But that's not the fault of the taiko mapper. Standard mapper cryasses should refrain from saying 'ewwwww three guest diffs by you, too much'
They need to change their attitude then.


Edit: I fully agree with Shiro-dono. Nothing more to add from my side regarding what he said.

Loctav wrote:

Well, trash mapsets won't be ranked, if we could trust more in the modding/ranking process. Then this 'throwing a random easy in' won't work. This doesnt work on Standard, too.
And yes, surely they could be merged. But that's not the fault of the taiko mapper. Standard mapper cryasses should refrain from saying 'ewwwww three guest diffs by you, too much'
They need to change their attitude then.

Recent mapsets often have 5 or even more standard difficulties. The limit is 8, which barely allows any room for maneuvering when it comes to Taiko maps. Like I said, mappers are not going to want to bother about a mode they do not care about. Back when single Taiko difficulties, everything was simple: mappers would take (more often than not) the Taiko difficulty and try to get modders. Which ensures both Standard and Taiko mods.

The 8-limit-rule can be easily nuked under this condition.
And as I said, this requires an attitude change. And if the attitude doesn't change, the seperated mapsets are still an option.
This is no issue the rule provides, this is an issue the people create because of their desire to rank maps for fame, nor for making good quality mapsets no matter what.

As true as it might be, I doubt mappers are going to want to change. Encouraging instead of forcing would solve this issue - A XAT would personally request that your map features a second Taiko difficulty and help you find one, as well as modding it. This alternative solves this problem and many more.

Yeh. But this requires more XAT dealing with Taiko. And this is, unfortunately, not the case, yet.
And doubting is a random assumption. It will be hard in the beginning, but we should give it time and see how it develops, before saying 'this ain't gonna work, they won't change' without even trying.

Well, I said XAT, but any taiko mod requesting an easier difficulty should do, in fact. As long as the modder is ready to at least help the mapper finding a guest difficulty (or making it himself) it should be fine, right?
Either way, the same thing remains: There are not enough Taiko mods and modders. This is a fact, because when you know how the mode, and how maps work, Taiko is very hard to mod properly.

Mr Color wrote:

Either way, the same thing remains: There are not enough Taiko mods and modders. This is a fact, because when you know how the mode, and how maps work, Taiko is very hard to mod properly.

Nothing more to add from my side.

Mr Color wrote:

Either way, the same thing remains: There are not enough Taiko mods and modders. This is a fact, because when you know how the mode, and how maps work, Taiko is very hard to mod properly.

Keep in mind #taiko has been exploding over the past hour or so with people wanting to map and mod.

It might take the community some time to get a proper modding standpoint for taiko, but it seems people are getting motivation.
(But we don't know how long this will last.)

So I guess we just have to wait and see what happens before we call this a BAD idea. Some might say it's not the greatest, some might say it's great. We just have to wait and see.

For now I'm gonna agree with MMzz, and just watch what happens, but I still think this rule shouldn't be set in stone yet. The next months will prove whether or not this was a good thing and how the number of maps featuring a Taiko difficulty varies.
If the Taiko community is ready to make efforts and start making maps with several Taiko difficulties, I'm not going to stand against it. I still want too see how well this will be received by standard mappers, and if they're ready as well to accept two or more Taiko diffs on their maps.
And I still think this should be a guideline so that we can make it a case-by-case option, leave mappers the choice, etc etc. grumble ramble.


I'll agree to wait and see, but I'll get back to this if it proves to not work out in the end.

Big and Busty wrote:

Easy Taiko maps are not needed, I'd rather have more difficult ones actually approved or ranked rather than having a thousand of unsubmitted maps and a huge .txt file with the links. We have a TBT which after spending a week of playing taiko you can switch to oni 8* with no mods or to oni 10* with half time or easy, what's the point? After a month of playing properly, and when I mean playing properly is learning patterns and training them, you will not even touch anything below oni diff. Or one month is a huge learning curve nowadays?

Worst post of the thread by far.

No one learns like you - people are different.

I am still having problems learning on how to FC Muzukashii diffs (can only pass VERY easy onis with ddk or kdd) and there are no maps that I can learn patterns besides that TBT training that doesn't help much. Saying a beginner could just spend all of his time on that training is completely selfish. We do want to learn with songs we like and all that stuff, not just "praticing with a training map".

And why would I have to play Onis with Easy/HT if they have patterns I can barely understand on and I could just start from simpler things that I find on Muzukashii diffs?

Sorry for not replying in here for a while, i was absent, however i see that Loctav has covered what i wanted to say to begin with, just wait and see.

I wonder if osu!standard mappers went like this when they were forced to include a minimum of 2 diffs per mapset too

I remember a month ago when I made a thread on this exact guideline/rule... requesting it. I'm honestly surprised it actually happened.

I understand where some people are coming from here, only because I know what I felt like before I tried learning taiko and I would be pissed if my map wouldn't get ranked because I didn't include a gamemode I've never looked into.

HOWEVER, when I did try to learn, I was told that my standard maps sometimes turn into good taiko maps when converted. I have over 1200 beatmaps, only two standard difficulties I've converted EVER translated well. Both of them would be considered a 7* oni with taiko rankings. Newbie taiko players need maps MADE for newbie taiko players, or else the only thing they learn how to do is mash the keys when a yellow drumroll appears. I thank Blue Dragon and others for confirmation on this.

I learned how to play taiko via importing the PSP titles and buying "Taiko Drum Master" for the PS2. I knew it was the only way to learn without finding unranked taiko maps on other websites.

This will not trigger a lack of taiko difficulties, because I know of many people who are eager to get into taiko-only mapping. Guest mappers will be easy to find, all you have to do is ask for one.