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[Rule] No mapset may have more than 8 difficulties

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167
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
Does this apply to approval maps?
And for example can i get hybrid rank with 7 difficulties, which one of them is for approval?

lolcubes edit:

Current draft of the new Rule wrote:

No mapset can have more than 6 standard difficulties and 6 alternative mode difficulties which include Taiko and Catch the Beat difficulties together. This is to leave mappers more freedom in how they want their mapsets but to prevent a flood of endless amount of difficulties. This however will require some careful modding to eliminate all problems, so if a mapset has 8 or more total difficulties, the ranking of the mapset will be handled just like approval maps, meaning it will require atleast a MAT and a BAT bubble before ranking.
Also fixed the thread title into something more appropriate.

Current official rule:
No mapset can have more than 8 total difficulties. Too many difficulties in a mapset becomes pointless and just makes the set much bigger than it needs to be.
Last edited by Sakura , edited 4 times in total.
eldnl
Former osu!catch Champion: 2013
2,930 posts
Joined March 2010
eldnl
What's the point of so many difficulties?
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
why not?
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
It does apply to approval maps.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
What purpose does limiting the number of difficulties on approval maps serve?

Also, since it's not much different, is there a time limit for approval maps?
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika

Soaprman wrote:

Also, since it's not much different, is there a time limit for approval maps?
I think this gives us all an idea as to what the time limit for approval maps are.
Mismagius
9,313 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

Soaprman wrote:

Also, since it's not much different, is there a time limit for approval maps?
Nope, not really. But most people don't do 25+ minute beatmaps because it's VERY hard to not make something boring with that length.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
If there isn't a time limit, then why have a difficulty limit? A mapset of eight 3:30 difficulties would have less mapping than paraparamax. But it would not be allowed under these rules. Why?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I think it was because it's glitchy or something to have many difficulties in 1 mapset or something, i forgot. However, there's Moscau, so idk anymore.

My reasoning would be, why would you need so many difficulties specially when all of them are from different mappers when they can have their own mapsets anyways?
Hika
1,553 posts
Joined February 2010
Hika

Sakura Hana wrote:

My reasoning would be, why would you need so many difficulties specially when all of them are from different mappers when they can have their own mapsets anyways?
Maybe some mappers are creative & could possibly map their map several different ways?
Someone probably would do some kinda map for example with a collab, 2 insanes, a hard, normal, easy & a taiko. I haven't checked the limit of insanes you're supposed to have but last I heard, there was a limit.
Soaprman
1,392 posts
Joined January 2008
Soaprman
Never heard of any such glitchiness. I'd be interested in learning more!

And yeah, I couldn't see myself ever making a mapset with more than six difficulties. But others have the occasional reason to and I wouldn't want to needlessly deny them that opportunity. It's not like doing away with this rule (especially for approval) would result in a surge of gigantic mapsets, would it? Remember that the modding process enforces a sort of soft limit anyway - who really wants to mod a ton of difficulties?
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
SPOILER
08:21 <Louis_Cyphre> : greetings ~
08:21 <mm201|up> : hi
08:22 <Louis_Cyphre> : well i want to ask about approved difficulties on ranked maps
08:23 <Louis_Cyphre> : Can i have 6 difficulties in mapset for rank and 1 for approval?
08:23 <Louis_Cyphre> : total count is 7
08:23 <mm201|up> : I dunno, it's up in the air right now
08:24 <Louis_Cyphre> : so you're discussing that atm?
08:24 <mm201|up> : well in newrules
08:24 <mm201|up> : just go with what the modder says
08:26 <Louis_Cyphre> : modder? :O
08:27 <mm201|up> : or BAT, whatever
08:27 <Louis_Cyphre> : BATs keep saying me that they are not sure
08:27 <Louis_Cyphre> : they said me to ask you or peppy
08:27 <mm201|up> : lol
08:27 <Louis_Cyphre> : peppy is not online as i see, no answer from him
08:28 <mm201|up> : all I can do is voice my opinion
08:28 <mm201|up> : if the spread is reasonable, it should be fine
08:28 <Louis_Cyphre> : oh, listen-listen
08:28 *Louis_Cyphre is listening to (Demetori - U.N. Owen Was Her?)[http://osu.ppy.sh/s/42247]
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : if it's possible to have 7 diffs then i'll make 3 more diffs for this map
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : which makes mapset sweet
08:29 <mm201|up> : as in, easier ones?
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : yea
08:29 <mm201|up> : I agree
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : E N H I X (I) (X)
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : hybrid ranking, highest solo difficulty for approval
08:29 <Louis_Cyphre> : due to score
08:29 <mm201|up> : right now, inaccurate as it is, it's showing IIII which is worrying
08:30 <mm201|up> : adding lower difficulties couldn't be a bad idea
08:30 <Louis_Cyphre> : it's showing (I)(I) I I, Unknown is something like Extreme [X]
08:30 <Louis_Cyphre> : Lunatic is just standard insane
08:30 <Louis_Cyphre> : if 7 diffs can be set, i'll make other E N H
08:31 <Louis_Cyphre> : which makes mapset perfect
08:31 <mm201|up> : I support that
08:31 <mm201|up> : are both taikos necessary?
08:31 <Louis_Cyphre> : oh yea
08:31 <mm201|up> : or I guess I should say, does one of them suck?
08:31 <Louis_Cyphre> : oh no dude
08:31 <Louis_Cyphre> : I asked them directly
08:31 <mm201|up> : I think your plan is fine
08:31 <Louis_Cyphre> : both taikos were requested by me
08:31 <mm201|up> : removing one of them now would be a waste of time
08:32 <Louis_Cyphre> : yes, they are great, both mappers are godly
08:33 <Louis_Cyphre> : ok, glad to hear your support, one more question, so i think i can hope on that and start to map other
08:33 <Louis_Cyphre> : difficulties, right?
08:33 <mm201|up> : yeah
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
^ tl;dr: Same thing I said here

The limit should be sane, but more than 7, especially if Taiko difficulties are involved. Removing difficulties is always a waste of time. What matters most is that the spread is decent.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
while annoying to have 7 difficulties in a mapset since it takes up the entire screen, taikos just shouldn't count towards the 6 max.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
I think simply focusing on having that good difficulty spread, no matter how many difficulties it takes should be the route to take. This way you can facilitate having those ridiculously hard maps, but you need to work -a lot- so you can fill in the gaps for the rest of the user base. Also, food for thought: Good taiko spreads? That'd be a nice change.

It's just gonna suck modding a 9 difficulty 4 minute set. Ughhh.
Sync
osu! Alumni
1,575 posts
Joined April 2011
Sync

ziin wrote:

while annoying to have 7 difficulties in a mapset since it takes up the entire screen, taikos just shouldn't count towards the 6 max.
Garven
osu! Alumni
5,857 posts
Joined January 2010
Garven
Modding is slightly different from addition last I checked.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
I think that there shouldn't be a limit, because as mm201 said removing difficulties is really just a huge waste. For ranked maps, there should at least be something easier for new players, but for approval maps IMO that shouldn't be necessary :?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Just a little devil's advocate here:

Why make 7 difficulties in the first place? If some of these are guest difficulties, they should have their own beatmap set. There should be no reason for you yourself to make 7 difficulties--you can't make 7 unique difficulties yourself and still have them all be different difficulties and play differently enough to be a viable beatmap. Guest difficulties create the problem in the first place, and if you want to do such a thing, they should be ranked in their own mapset, not in yours.

I'm not fully supporting either, but certainly that taikos shouldn't count to the max.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn

ziin wrote:

If some of these are guest difficulties, they should have their own beatmap set.
not really... Sometimes someone just wants to make one diff, and it would be easier and more convenient to put it in the existing beatmap. I don't see the point in forcing people to map a whole set when it's easier for everyone to just put a guest diff >.<
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
my point is if you're pushing 6 diffs, you're going to probably have at least 2 guest diffs. Put the guest diffs into a 2nd set and one of the guest mappers bite the bullet and make a sub 3.0 diff. Now there's a pretty good reason to play at least 2 difficulties of the same song, rather than just the highest difficulty of the huge mapset. If anything it will get your map more plays.
pieguyn
2,020 posts
Joined May 2009
pieguyn
The whole point is that that's really pointless and a lot more effort than it needs to be to be ranked, when there's nothing wrong with putting them in the same set as the original...

(Plus, often all the guest diffs are insanes so we'd end up with EII or NII, which I doubt anyone would rank even though there'd be a hard in the other mapset anyway...)
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

pieguy1372 wrote:

(Plus, often all the guest diffs are insanes )
Huh?

A) That'd be the guest mapper's problem.
B) There's no reason to accept guest difficulties that are already there except for the mapper being nice.
C) Most guest diffs are not insanes, they are lower difficulties. Really.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I just can't see why we can't leave this to the mapper's choice. I don't see a problem having a map set of 6 or more difficulties. Of course, it could be made out of two separate map sets, but again, it's their choice and it does no or only little harm to the point that the rule seems unnecessary.

This would be more appropriate as a guideline. "We encourage you to have 3 ~ 5 difficulties for a map set"?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

bmin11 wrote:

I just can't see why we can't leave this to the mapper's choice. I don't see a problem having a map set of 6 or more difficulties. Of course, it could be made out of two separate map sets, but again, it's their choice and it does no or only little harm to the point that the rule seems unnecessary.

This would be more appropriate as a guideline. "We encourage you to have 3 ~ 5 difficulties for a map set"?
Moskau anyone?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Moskaus tend to be rarities. If you want to be really pedantic about it, we could set an upper limit of 10 or something, excluding taiko difficulties. I don't think this is necessary.

It's possible to make at least 5 difficulties for a set with good spread. Possibly more. Add in a couple mappers whose feelings you don't want to hurt by rejecting their difficulties and you're already at 7+. If the mapper is willing to put up with waiting for a modder to come along and mod their huge number of difficulties, let them.

ziin wrote:

my point is if you're pushing 6 diffs, you're going to probably have at least 2 guest diffs. Put the guest diffs into a 2nd set and one of the guest mappers bite the bullet and make a sub 3.0 diff. Now there's a pretty good reason to play at least 2 difficulties of the same song, rather than just the highest difficulty of the huge mapset. If anything it will get your map more plays.
Usually, the guest difficulties are all from different mappers. Who uploads it? Who gets stuck with the responsibility of mapping more difficulties when they only wanted to create one?
Zekira
9,233 posts
Joined September 2008
Zekira

ziin wrote:

while annoying to have 7 difficulties in a mapset since it takes up the entire screen, taikos just shouldn't count towards the 6 max.
This this oh god this. I know a LOT of aspiring Taiko beginners who have ragequitted here because of the lack of difficulties lower than Oni, mainly because we couldn't put another Taiko diff aside due to Taiko being included :/

That's my only say on this matter lol; just implement that and everything will be fine imo
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Zekira wrote:

I know a LOT of aspiring Taiko beginners who have ragequitted here because of the lack of difficulties lower than Oni, mainly because we couldn't put another Taiko diff aside due to Taiko being included :/

That's my only say on this matter lol; just implement that and everything will be fine imo
That's why i asked for a 8 diff limit, that easily allows for Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane, Kantan, Futsuu, Muzukashii, Oni, the problem is that maybe now we would see maps with like 2 Insanes and 2 Onis, or 2 Insanes 1 Expert and 2 Onis and 1 Inner Oni, saying that those are different difficulty levels.

ziin wrote:

while annoying to have 7 difficulties in a mapset since it takes up the entire screen, taikos just shouldn't count towards the 6 max.
And why do you need 6 osu!Standard slots?, by that logic we could limit the diffs to 4 while not including Taiko in the limit.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Garven wrote:

I think simply focusing on having that good difficulty spread, no matter how many difficulties it takes should be the route to take.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

ouranhshc wrote:

Garven wrote:

I think simply focusing on having that good difficulty spread, no matter how many difficulties it takes should be the route to take.

That's the way.
SPOILER
Anyway infos on spread difficulties

Beginner (aka Painfully Easy, Easy as Boredom or similiar) <- avoidable, neither noobs like to play painfully easies,really
Easy (for people who started plaing)
Normal (another starting level, or somewhat harder than Easy)
Normal+ (some experience needed, but only a little more...)
Hard (not an easier insane, neither an hard normal, quite hard, but should be easily passed by players with some experience)
Soft Insane (easier than an insane an harder than Hard, can be fast on some point)
Insane(for experienced players only.)
Lunatic/Extra/Another/Expert (challenge for more than experienced players)
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

Sakura Hana wrote:

And why do you need 6 osu!Standard slots?, by that logic we could limit the diffs to 4 while not including Taiko in the limit.
Now you've lost me.
Louis Cyphre
2,684 posts
Joined October 2009
Topic Starter
Louis Cyphre
by that logic we could limit the diffs to 4 while not including Taiko in the limit.
five, five diffs. ENHIX (HINEX xDD)
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
actually there could be a level between Insane and Hard ( Soft Insane ) a Painfully Easy level and another between Normal and Hard...
Anyway
6+3+1 (Standard+Taiko+CtB) Limit is better?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Sakura Hana wrote:

And why do you need 6 osu!Standard slots?, by that logic we could limit the diffs to 4 while not including Taiko in the limit.
2 taikos
ENHIX
That's 7 maps. What a shame to only have one taiko for a marvelous difficulty spread.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Simple point, if you dont want to "Waste mapper work" dont map it, i've denied guest diffs in the past due to having 6 difficulties in the set already, or even better you could always include it in another mapset, better for the players since they'll have 2 maps to gain ranked score from (if it still means something by then).
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

Sakura Hana wrote:

Simple point, if you dont want to "Waste mapper work" dont map it, i've denied guest diffs in the past due to having 6 difficulties in the set already, or even better you could always include it in another mapset, better for the players since they'll have 2 maps to gain ranked score from (if it still means something by then).
What kind of diffs were they?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Dance Away for instance, i denied two because i had already accepted 5, even tho Lily didnt make it on time so it ended up with 5 diffs in the end.
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo

Gonzvlo wrote:

Keep in mind that we're not talking about 2 Insanes, we're talking about 2 completely different difficulties. One is obviously harder than the other and offers a different gaming experience. Sometimes songs let us map more than the usual ENHI spread, that's all.

In this specific case, the spread contains 5 Standard Difficulties and 2 Taiko difficulties. Easy, Normal, Hard, Insane and Origin (Again, these are not 2 Insanes. These are different difficulties, just like Normal is different from Hard. It's just that we don't have another standard name for said "X" difficulty). This spread can offer even a better gaming experience for players than the usual ENHI. Just like the "3 Star Rule" for the beginners, we can also offer something better for the experienced players.
Copy paste from the HQ, I was talking about this map: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/40233


EDIT:

If the song and your mapping skill lets you map more then why not? What's wrong with that?

Seriously, the only reason that has been brought against letting mappers have more than 6 difficulties is "Why would you need 2 Insanes?". I'll say it again, those are not 2 Insanes, those are completely different difficulties. It's like comparing an Easy with a Normal, just because the star rating system marks both as Insanes it doesn't mean that both are exactly the same difficulty level/gaming experience.

Of course, this needs some restrictions, I'd say... Max Standard Difficulties: 5 [E-N-H-I-X] - Max Taiko Difficulties: 2 [F/M - O]. Also, we must encourage mappers to map their own difficulties so I'd suggest that if the mapper wants to exceed the "6 Difficulties Rule" then, at least, 4 difficulties must be mapped by the creator. tl;dr: The new max should be 8 with some special restrictions.
bmin11
5,438 posts
Joined October 2008
bmin11
I think Gonzvlo wrapped it up well with the issue. I don't mind how many difficulties there are. I only care how well the difficulty spread works and how the difficulty level noticeably changes in between.

I'm against with uploader mapping 4 difficulties requirement. There will be a situation when more then a person or two wants to map a difficulty for it for variable reasons. There is no need to restrict those opportunities.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Better said the map should respect the accountabilty issues... (more than the mapper should map four difficulties)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
Remove the conditions and I'm good.
6+2 taiko
5+3 taiko
...
2+6 taiko

Adding a condition is not the way to encourage people to map their own maps. We have Map Accountability for that. If you get a mapset where 4 people map 2 maps each, anyone can upload it.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Okay, we have discussed this further in the MAT/BAT section and so far we have come up with this idea.

Rules wrote:

No mapset can have more than 8 standard difficulties and 8 alternative mode difficulties which include Taiko and Catch the Beat difficulties together. This is to leave mappers more freedom in how they want their mapsets but to prevent a flood of endless amount of difficulties.
Added CTB diffs into the rule because the direction where we're going will probably result CTB being rankable. I am pretty sure that you probably won't need 5 ctb diffs and 5 taiko diffs in one mapset, while on standard there are possibilities to have 6 pretty well spread diffs, and possibly even a diff for approval if the song allows it. The numbers aren't extreme and they provide much bigger freedom while not being really high so that you have a mapset over 3 screens long when scrolling in game.

This is a nice balanced rule because the more difficulties you have, the more responsibility you need to have. It is going to be harder to get mods on really high number of difficulties too so it's a tradeoff people will have to accept.

Would be nice to have some additional input so we can finalize this.
Thanks.
Mercurial
Mercurial
Victory.

Thnks lolcubes :) ♥
Disease_old_1
Disease_old_1
well aint that some good news. a few more troubles for the ctb community then :D
CLSW
osu! Alumni
2,182 posts
Joined October 2010
CLSW
Just so much excited.

My happiness can't be counted.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I still prefer my maximum of 8 diffs, with 6 difficulties max of any one type, but this is less lenient, and is acceptable.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Well, those are just the limits, noone says the map has to have that many diffs. If people really want that many diffs, they will take really alot of time to mod properly, and probably rank. It won't be anything easier and it will probably still discourage most of the mappers from mapping all that. You even have NH mapsets just so they are rankable so I think we are really in the safe area here, but there are mapsets with already mapped 6 diffs and unfortunately sometimes that's not enough for numerous reasons (and one of them is a bad diff spread because people mostly fail to map proper hard diffs nowadays, atleast from what I have seen, so an extra diff should be added without discarding or remapping an existing one).

Also the accountability guideline is still there, so the mapper does have to make his own part atleast. Managing so many guest diffs is also a pain so I seriously doubt a mapper is gonna map 2 diffs then ask for 6-7 different guest diffs (atleast one being a taiko).

iMercurial wrote:

Victory.

Thnks lolcubes :) ♥
Thanks, but you should be thanking everyone on the team, because it's more or less a decision everyone sort of agreed upon. ;)
Kite
osu! Alumni
1,372 posts
Joined July 2009
Kite
Sound good to me, finally something is done about the restriction.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I just don't want to have a map with 16 difficulties crowding up my screen.
Mirage
627 posts
Joined May 2011
Mirage
I approve.
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