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Give players the right to change combo colors themselves [added]

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180
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +7
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
Idea comes from some certain maps and the rule/guideline in discussing.

Original Post:
SPOILER
If we put a rule "No combo colors should be blend to the BG/video/SB/whatever", it's still a subjective thing, and really hard to draw a line to limit those.
Sometimes, mapper want a combo color to show his ideas to the map or to fit the song's theme, but players think it's just annoying because they need some more play counts to FC it, "oh damn what a shit combo color"

So why not think in the other way? Let both mapper and players get what they want. Players could be able to change combo colors themself, so if they're really confused by some certain maps, they could just change it. People who love it or find it no difference will still play with "default color". This will give a solution not only to later maps, it also make some players easier to play old maps with color blending thing.

opinions?

Edit:
Improvement:
SPOILER

SapphireGhost wrote:

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.

Advantages:
SPOILER


NatsumeRin wrote:

If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.

If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.

If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

Implementation:
SPOILER

NatsumeRin wrote:

Get a button out of the maps, let's say, "set your own combo colors". But your own combo colors won't work during the first play of a map, it will be only enabled after you finished the map/get a score on the map once.

Yeah... that would leads to a player use same combo color to play all maps, but i don't see a disadvantage of this if he thinks that's the best way for him.
Last edited by NatsumeRin , edited 3 times in total.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,847 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
Although I support this, I do not see this happening since in this game, maps must be played 'the way mappers intend.'
Mismagius
9,261 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius
I have deleted background on Chocobo because of my default skin making it impossible to read.



Support.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Probably gonna get denied, but I definitely support this.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
You can already if the mapper doesn't set them. If the mapper does set them, it's the same as anything with skinning, and should follow the mapper's intent. If it's hard to see, this should be caught in the modding process. (Don't mistake "should" with "is". Shortcomings of the approval process is a whole different issue.)
Mismagius
9,261 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

mm201 wrote:

You can already if the mapper doesn't set them. If the mapper does set them, it's the same as anything with skinning, and should follow the mapper's intent. If it's hard to see, this should be caught in the modding process. (Don't mistake "should" with "is". Shortcomings of the approval process is a whole different issue.)
What about old maps like Chocobo? :o
Takuya
1,691 posts
Joined May 2010
Takuya
I obviously would like it, even though I doubt it will happen.
Replacing backgrounds ftw
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
if this is because people are complaining about that crappy skin you use on your wowaka maps NR, and if you care what other people think (I could have sworn you didn't), but you also want to make sure the song appears the way you want, then release a skin called "wowaka" and force that skin.

Not to mention, you can make it look exactly the way you want it to on all computers, except for the cursor.

My skin forces a default yellow slider track, which of course looks bad on grayscale. You can't force a gray star2.png in the beatmap unless you use a greenish star2.png, but you can if you use skin.ini.

Then people wouldn't have to keep downloading the same crappy skin either every time they download a wowaka map, and people who hate the skin wouldn't have to keep deleting it.

There's some problem with osu itself, but most of the problem lies with mappers who refuse to balance art and gameplay. I personally hate maps where I don't know where/when the next note is.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
I'd rather give players the right to choose, depends they like "art" more, or "gameplay" (or score) more.
I'm a mapper, i like the art thing more in my map, this is without doubt, but i don't want to force people to think that way. (so yeah force skin is not a good idea.)

For now, it takes no longer than 10 seconds for people to delete it, so if they want the gameplay, hehe, just do it why not.
I agree with the last sentence you have, but it's more a mappers preference. instead of "this map is just based on mapper so you should follow everything", why not let every player choose. i know it's kinda against the main idea of the coming osz2, but here's maybe one way to solve. also i never delete BG/SB/skin stuffs myself, but in previous posts, you could see that's what majority is doing.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Using crippling skins with the expectation that players will delete them is a bad attitude. peppy wants skins to be irremovable, and they're going to be very shortly. You should choose your map skins with the expectation that EVERY player is going to have to play with them, and be considerate.
Waryas
Waryas
I often delete skins but i have no problem with any of the wowarin skins so...
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
I agree my method is not ideal either, and truly your maps are works of art, I just don't find they play well (many others don't mind it. The skin isn't crippling to them, clearly.)

One nice thing about forcing a skin (which by the way is not really "forcing" because anyone can go in and change that skin later if they so desire, and I should hope this remains the same in osz2) is that it completely bypasses the ranking guidelines.

The wowaka skin has hitbursts which under the new ranking guidelines are/should be unrankable. If you force a skin rather than including the elements in the map, you can also change things like slider preference and slider track override, which you can't do if the skin is in the map (again a limitation of osu!). I like peppy sliders better, but for stacked maps, mm sliders work much better, since they're more transparent.

I think the majority of people don't care about skin issues, and a few are quite vocal about their skin preference, even though I guarantee most of them don't bother to change the skin if the skin isn't especially bad.

It's too bad we can't have a skin.ini in the map itself which holds all this stuff and would remain editable and rankable.
Shael_old
Shael_old
Why does stuff get denied even tho most people support it
RemmyX25
osu! Alumni
3,087 posts
Here since the beginning
RemmyX25
If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?
Mismagius
9,261 posts
Joined July 2008
Mismagius

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?
Depends on who you're talking that thinks it's a good idea ;P

If people support it, why should it be denied? Just because you admins/devs don't like it? :/
Shael_old
Shael_old

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?
If the majority want's it, it may be a good idea.

To keep a game running you need to satisfy the majority
Waryas
Waryas

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?
That analogy is completely retarded and unrelated to this issue.
One results in one's death where the other only changes gameplay.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral
shifted this back to feature requests pending more discussion

there is certainly some merit to this idea and it may be a feature worth investigating. fundamentally though, whatever combo colours a map has should be mediated before it is ranked in the first place. you can also alter custom skin default colours clientside by editing skin.ini
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
This should be reserved to maps which combo colours were categorized as blending with the background.

EDIT: I didn't think of it at first, but that would be very handy for colour blind people.
TKiller
4,390 posts
Joined May 2009
TKiller
This would be handy to lots of people, not obligatory colour-blind.

Visual perception differs a lot.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

TKiller wrote:

Visual perception differs a lot.
That's why the feature request here. now every ranked map force people to get used to one of the color sets, some sets that is acceptable to most people could be a "good" set, the ones most people consider "blending" would become hard to read. But there're lots of exceptions, like JesusYamato and myself, could read the wowaka serie maps perfectly, but we may feel uncomfortable to read some shining colors.

Another point is, sometimes mapper use combo color as part of the art effect (because it affects the least to gameplay), he thinks it won't make too much difference for players, but some players may not think so. This could benefit both those "gameplay first" players also the mapper. Mapper could still show people what he want in his map, and players that see art as nothing could easily get the score they want. i don't know why one side of them has to compromise to another, here's just a way to make both side the winner.

and... why the nuke icon still here?
Last edited by NatsumeRin , edited 1 time in total.
Larto
4,128 posts
Joined June 2008
Larto

RemmyX25 wrote:

If most people supported jumping off a bridge, is it still a good idea?
You are ridiculous and so are your analogies, just felt like putting this out there, the others explained why pretty well;


My only problem with this request is that a select few maps with fake circles might have their effects ruined a bit if the combo colours are changed in those maps (fake circles and real ones differ in colours). But it is a decent solution, as what one perceives as hard to see and what another one perceives so can differ quite a lot, and a compromise between all these views is hard to get even with thorough modding.

Letting the player play the map once the way the mapper intended it and then allowing them to change the combo colours, similar to the suggested storyboard toggle sounds like a good compromise between mapper and player for me. Not every map will have custom colours, and not all of these wil have ones thatl blend in with the background so much that you have to use your own colours. Playing the map once then won't kill too much of the player's time in the big picture. That's my suggestion anyways.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Why not have a "bland mod" which becomes unlocked once you play the map? It would remove the storyboard, background, skins, colours--basically everything.
Krisom
osu! Alumni
2,867 posts
Joined April 2009
Krisom
I'd like to see the mapper set a second set of combocolors. That way, the player could choose between set one or set two.
Both sets shouldn't be completely the same and if a second set isn't defined, that one gets the same colors as the custom skin the player is using.

Of course I'm just dreaming and all. Oh, and I kinda support this, specially for colourblind people out there.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

mm201 wrote:

Why not have a "bland mod" which becomes unlocked once you play the map? It would remove the storyboard, background, skins, colours--basically everything.
I guess it sounds really cool to some people (not including myself though). extend this topic a bit, we know osz2 won't allow people to change BG/video/SB elements, so what about this:

Players could decide whether to extract the osz2 file or not after he played (or say have a score on it) a map, through the editor. This thing works for all ranked/approved map. We keep pending maps as a flexible .osz and easy for people to mod/test, just remake it to .osz2 file when the map goes to ranked/approved. The duty belongs to the BAT who rank/approve the map.

Edit: In this way, coule combo color thing be a unique .txt file, with every diff and its color on it, for people to change? I don't know programming much so... possible?
Last edited by NatsumeRin , edited 2 times in total.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
I think it would be nice to have an option in probably the mod selection screen that says:
After map is played once, disable:
[ ] Storyboard
[ ] Skin
[ ] Background
[ ] Custom Colors

Or something like that.
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo
First of all, I think that this kind of stuff is really rude for the mappers that put so much effort in the design of their maps.

There are many mappers that spend several hours designing a Skin/SB, even picking the right BG/Combo Colours for their maps. Now, knowing that players will simply throw their work to the 'recycle bin' is really sad.

The combo colors issue should be fixed in the modding process therefore, I don't see any reasons to implement such things. Also, I wonder if there are recently ranked maps with that problem.

About the old maps, I think that there are some BATs that can 'haxsubmit' some of those maps and fix them, if it's really necessary.
Last edited by Gonzvlo , edited 1 time in total.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
It's probably the fact. Mappers always want to keep their will, show people what they want, but the reality is pretty cruel, "osu is a game not art", "why do you bother to make them?", "it just hurt my eyes".
And one lol thing is this even happen in the mappers community, "osu is a game not art blablabla". I don't think these mappers will care about their BG/combo color/SB/video, but i do, some other mappers do (Gonzvlo is probably one).

It will be... yeah, a compromise, from some mappers, to those players and mappers don't respect the art thing. before they become the majority of the community (i doubt if they already are) and start to force mappers delete everything affect their "gameplay". it's probably the best answer i could find now, not to hurt both the side.

Edit:
@Gonzvlo: Now the delete BG thing happens a lot, do you think it's a fine solution to just pack them to a not-able-to-change osz2? i don't.
Also as we proved, combo color thing is really different from people to people, so how to "fix" since there's no real errors but mainly subjective issues.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

SapphireGhost wrote:

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.
so great.
Waryas
Waryas

SapphireGhost wrote:

Well in that case, a better solution might be to let the mapper decide whether their visual elements are optional or not. This way if the mapper doesn't really care if the player doesn't use it, then they don't have to worry but mappers who want their storyboard/skins/stuff played with can have that work too.
+1
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo

NatsumeRin wrote:

@Gonzvlo:
Also as we proved, combo color thing is really different from people to people, so how to "fix" since there's no real errors but mainly subjective issues.
I thought we were talking about "The right to change Combo Colours" because some of them might blend with the "BG" or because some are confusing while playing. That sounds like an "error" that should be fixed in the modding process, like I said before.
Sorry if I misunderstood the objective of this feature request.

Sapphire's idea sounds nice, ilu.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
With Sapphire's idea I can see it coming that mappers who don't add the option are instantly flamed to death and the maps are down-voted =/
But if the community is actually mature enough to accept a few unchangable maps, I'd be all for it ^^
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
First was storyboards, then skins, then backgrounds and now combo colours too...

this has no end =/ i imagine the next will be what, disable the mp3?

and blending isnt subjective, or tell me you can see black approach circles (0,0,0) on black background (0,0,0)?
I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it
Gonzvlo
osu! Alumni
2,896 posts
Joined January 2010
Gonzvlo

Sakura Hana wrote:

I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it
It was 'Denied' but then moved back to 'Pending Requests'. I guess it needs an icon, lol.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

Gonzvlo wrote:

Sakura Hana wrote:

I dont even know how this request has a star icon, but yeah, that's my opinion on it
It was 'Denied' but then moved back to 'Pending Requests'. I guess it needs an icon, lol.
No, actually they could just have removed the nuke icon and left no icon, but whatever anyways, this is going off-topic so yeah
Azure_Kite
osu! Alumni
3,217 posts
Joined February 2009
Azure_Kite

Luna wrote:

With Sapphire's idea I can see it coming that mappers who don't add the option are instantly flamed to death and the maps are down-voted =/
But if the community is actually mature enough to accept a few unchangable maps, I'd be all for it ^^
That's quite a big ask.

To be honest, I think SapphireGhost's idea hit it on the head. If players can't accept that it's a mappers right to make their maps how they want them to be, said players should map themselves to see how fun it is catering for everyone. Making this an optional feature would help create a balance where hopefully players will be satisfied.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
Why this feature request is needed is because:

Now, we are about to have many rules/guidelines we never had before, to limit the BG/SB elements/Combo Color, why do we even do that? We're trying to make all players happy, let all of them could enjoy the fun of a certain map. But this thing in fact reduced the possibility of a map, may leads to a total decrease of map quality (just a small part though)

So what if we throw this question to the players? if we are trying to make them happy, why not let players to decide? Mappers who want to keep his map as what he want could still do it, which do no harm to current system, but some more players could benefit from this new feature, some of the mappers (like myself) won't be under the pressure of "hey you can't do this".

So why not?
Azure_Kite
osu! Alumni
3,217 posts
Joined February 2009
Azure_Kite
It is impossible to make everybody in a given commmunity happy with what they have. That being said, I didn't say I disagree with you. I just think this would be better off as an optional setting specified by the mapper, rather than giving players complete control over the combo colours.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Mapsets are pieces of art, let the mappers use the combo colours they want and they must be played by the p--- oh wait, it disturbs players, since it blends with the background, since this is a game too, not just art.

Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played. And it's the modders job to make sure the maps are playable by the players BEFORE they get ranked, if issues like this slip by, then there was a problem during the modding process of the beatmap that wasn't addressed, and the people involved should have pointed it out.

Instead of trying to change the colors for players, tell the mappers the blending colours during the modding process, so they can change it and it doesn't happen again.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin
Now you see why those rules and guidelines are needed, remember that this is a game, so you must compromise your art to make the game fairly playable to everyone, even if that means that you must change your combo colours on your map so they dont blend with the background.
After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)

My position still stands, this request is unnecessary, mappers have the right to get their maps played the way they intended them to be played.
They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

NatsumeRin wrote:

After this feature added, it's still fairly playable to everyone. "You need to comprise to rules" ---- No, better to change this sentence to "You need to comprise to players". Because Rule is to serve players (don't tell me it's not.)
You're right, they are

NatsumeRin wrote:

They could still have the right to "get their maps played the way they intended them to be played", based on SapphireGhost's suggestion, give mappers the right to decide whether it's optional or not.
That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin


I think this will explain well enough.

Art More Mappers, and all the modders, will certainly benefit from this new feature.

the Gameplay More Players, have to play the map once to get to the option, which do little harm to them. But im pretty sure the whole mapper community would like to see this.

The advantages is really much more than disadvantages.

Edit: in fact there's more... such as:
If you are a mapper and put gameplay the first place, you SHOULD let players decide the combo color, since you can't know them better than themselves. They will have more fun (at least, equal fun), with their own custom colors.
If you are a player at the point between Art and Gameplay, you may want to enjoy the map sometimes, while get a nice score at another time. and with the new feature it's easily to change.
If you are a mapper and think Art is more important, you will be happy (not that happy... happier maybe) to know your map will be played as your wish at least once, instead of the current situation: they will be deleted once the are extract from .osz file to a folder.

opinions?
Waryas
Waryas
That still doesnt show a "need" for the toggle to be there in the first place, its completely unnecessary.
Not unnecessary for a lot of players.
Not in this case myself but what about players that are color blind?
naptime
naptime
Colorblind people are completely unnecessary.
Xact
88 posts
Joined October 2008
Xact
I'm color blind and with some colors its like I'm playing certain maps on hidden because approaches blend in with backgrounds, etc :( Not to mention just bad color combo's and colors + backgrounds.

There's a point where game play needs to come before someone who wants their map to look pretty. Aesthetics should not come first. I'm not really sure why a mapper would get upset by changing the color scheme on combos and see no reason why we shouldn't be able to change them.

I understand some of these people spend many hours on their maps, that's no reason for them to spend only 5 minutes thinking about what skins/backgrounds to copy and paste into them and not be sure they don't interfere with the users experience of the game.

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.
Shael_old
Shael_old
Right now, there are more people that are gameplay oriented than mappers

We just need to accept the fact that mappers are the minority, but have more power since most of them have mod/admin powers

So we want to ask you kindly, because sometimes, players want to do a really good score, and 0 distraction would really, really help

I know most of the mappers don't play alot or don't try to rank double time songs/hardrock, but please just think about it once


Also : I knew a friend, which was colorblind also, this would REALLY REALLY help her to enjoy the game
Zetta
334 posts
Joined December 2009
Zetta
I thank you for posting this suggestion Natsume. I think this would easily solve issues of BG blending as well as what Xact says about some users being colour blind.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

Xact wrote:

At the very least the combo colors should not clash with the backgrounds, should be mapper rule IMO.
It already is. Maps with poor contrast shouldn't be getting ranked in the first place.
Colour blindness is irrelevant since motion is only strongly perceived in the luma domain anyway. Approach circles with low luma contrast will be hard to see for everyone.

If a map has awful combo colours, point it out in the map's thread and get a BAT to change it.

NatsumeRin wrote:

opinions?
Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.
NatsumeRin
osu! Alumni
4,032 posts
Joined August 2009
Topic Starter
NatsumeRin

mm201 wrote:

Yes. Art More maps should be nuked on the spot. Gameplay More players should suck it up. Your "modders don't need to check for awful colours" idea is very concerning.
This shouldn't be words saying by a dev. As i know what we should do is to make all players happy (though it's impossible to please everyone, but let's say most then), not make only you happy, so stop the subjective comments.

Edit: check it in a objective way plz, does the new feature benefit more people? if yes, what's your point on stopping this? your personal preference? Also, learn to be polite and choose your words, thanks.
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