Stjpa wrote:

The major problem is that people don't look for mods after they got the first bubble because they think their map is great as it is and they definitely only need the second BN, nothing else. I haven't encountered a guy who was looking for normal mods for their bubbled maps so far at least.

This is the reason I made the thread. There is a big discrepancy about what a bubble means among people. As I stated in the op, bubbles to a lot of us mean that a map is ready to be qualified. To you, it does not.

Also, is seeking more mods always the right answer? As the saying goes, too many cooks spoil the broth. By the time they reach their first bubble, they have presumably gotten a fair number of mods and are happy with how their map is. They can defend every decision made in the map, but you still won't like it. However, I would dearly hope that the first BN liked the map enough to think it was qualifiable.

There clearly is a line between maps simply being held back by the ranking process and maps that still need improvement. I am not saying "do away with the ranking process", but what i am saying is that for some mappers the modding/bubbling/ranking part of a map is really tiresome. When your maps reach a certain point where there basically isnt a lot to change/mod it's just a waste of time really, for the BN and the mapper likewise.

To answer your original question, a bubble feels to me like a "foot in the door" for me. When i decide to push a set to ranked it's basically like a green flag so i can go an bug more BNs with "hey i got this map bubbled".

Issue #1 - Modding and moders

Reminds me real life situation: You try to find work - everyone expect from you experience but nobody wants to provide it to you since... everyone already request from you to be experienced from time and space. Same goes here towards moders: Someone new have no ground to learn how to mod properly since, nobody care to give them "job", especially more experienced mappers who wants to speed-rank their maps and only request mods from their "friends" (props for Pishi who actually one day gave me job and provided knowledge, one of not many who care to teach).

Going from this side - hard to get map modded properly since from my observation - mods from newbies are treated as "garbage", not counting, not existing in eyes of BN/QAT so you need million of mods to actually get something.

How to solve it?

There is initiative to help new mappers to be better. Maybe make one for moders? Let them learn something, give them some kind of "test" at the end, let them obtain some kind of recommendation that "THIS guy actually know something and his mod can be treated as pretty valid".

Issue #2 - BN

They have real life. Like everyone does. They do mods, checks in their free time, for free but:

If you apply for position what require from you to do something in your free time, you will to do things, you are supposed to do this. Long time ago i willed to help in PvPGN and i done my part despite having job, real life, i spent my free time on this. Just an example.

Right now BNs are like - priority for known mappers - Monstrata etc... "fuck new mappers", they are at the end of line IF some BN have last piece of time to look for their maps, it still mostly ends with "nuke this, garbage map", mostly without even looking for it (this comes from one of osu! BN, my personal conversation with him, cannot provide name, promised). For example - same map posted by known mapper and unknown mapper:
- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.
How it is right? It isn't, right, but it's reality of actual ranking process and lack of interest in new mappers.

Bubble

Right now... just push map foward into qualified state, nothing else. It had meaning when mappers wasn't divided into "new" and "known". It had meaning when maps were trully quality and not pushed "by friends" into ranking (I just don't want to point out "certain" maps which are garbage in eyes of most players but still ranked).

Just my opinion.

[Taiga] wrote:

Issue #1 - Modding and moders

Reminds me real life situation: You try to find work - everyone expect from you experience but nobody wants to provide it to you since... everyone already request from you to be experienced from time and space. Same goes here towards moders: Someone new have no ground to learn how to mod properly since, nobody care to give them "job", especially more experienced mappers who wants to speed-rank their maps and only request mods from their "friends" (props for Pishi who actually one day gave me job and provided knowledge, one of not many who care to teach).

Going from this side - hard to get map modded properly since from my observation - mods from newbies are treated as "garbage", not counting, not existing in eyes of BN/QAT so you need million of mods to actually get something.

How to solve it?

There is initiative to help new mappers to be better. Maybe make one for moders? Let them learn something, give them some kind of "test" at the end, let them obtain some kind of recommendation that "THIS guy actually know something and his mod can be treated as pretty valid".

I think the problem isn't rely on whether no one bothers to give new modder "a job" ... I'm looking at many modding queue from various modes, and queue that offered NM is immediately get flooded by request.. no matter if they are new or not tbh.. there's plenty of chances for new guys to actually learn from their experience in their modding towards other people's map OR looking at other people's mod to see how it actually works for mod to be of "high quality" and can be more acceptable for wide range of mappers. But from my modes alone (mania) , the queue pretty much dead and many people expecting their maps to be NM'ed instead of actually putting effort in modding other people to learn something.. I think the problem is that the new people just don't bother to actually going through the learning curve process tbh..

It isn't like new modder's mod are treated as "garbage" , but as you said, they still haven't enough experience to actually can convey whether of what experience mappers actually want.. and it's not only from new modder's mod tbh.. but experience modder's mod can also get majority of their mod rejected if each of mapper and modder's perspective differ one another.. but with how ranking process works now, mod now HAVE to be replied everytime.. and the feedback on why it got rejected gives you an actual value on how you can increase your knowledge on how proper mod should be (providing that the new guys don't actually only mod something like "blanket blanket" , etc.)

If you're talking about "help new mappers to be better" , there's already community mentorship program existed out there ... :/ and it really provides new mapper a big help of making themselves better, it just comes out to the new guys whether they bother to actually sign them up and having something to learn from it..
I still think you got wrong idea if you expect other people to always want to help new people.. new mappers will always exist everyday, everytime, whatever.. If they really have passion to actually pouring their effort through mapping/modding, then they are the one that supposed to approach more experienced people to know much more and make themselves better through each steps they are making.. it's how it works everywhere..


Issue #2 - BN

They have real life. Like everyone does. They do mods, checks in their free time, for free but:

If you apply for position what require from you to do something in your free time, you will to do things, you are supposed to do this. Long time ago i willed to help in PvPGN and i done my part despite having job, real life, i spent my free time on this. Just an example.

Right now BNs are like - priority for known mappers - Monstrata etc... "fuck new mappers", they are at the end of line IF some BN have last piece of time to look for their maps, it still mostly ends with "nuke this, garbage map", mostly without even looking for it (this comes from one of osu! BN, my personal conversation with him, cannot provide name, promised). For example - same map posted by known mapper and unknown mapper:
- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.
How it is right? It isn't, right, but it's reality of actual ranking process and lack of interest in new mappers.

i don't know why many people assume that new mappers often not get chance to rank their maps.. at least from what i see now, new mappers have it really easier to rank their thing.. people just feel irk of someone that rank things more frequently lol.
I will go through stints that from my experience helping new mapper either in their bubble/ qualifying map, they are either : 1) only applying things from their mod without self initiative to self mod things that obviously can be improvable , which is a must when you are still learning 2) tend to give up really quickly.. they abandon their map when i adress my objective concern towards their map, and now my effort in checking that more or less in vain. 3) don't really bother to learn things and just want to rank things.. as Stjpa said in earlier post.. the number of people that asking how things can be improvable is really minimal compared with people that ask for immediate check.. which is saddening.

We're still doing this for sure, but does it mean that i have to risked myself everytime getting asshole replies or attitude from someone's that i don't know? checking thing is a long time process, people still do not get it until now.. the only time they supposed to ask bn for icon process is when the map is truly ready, but many seems to only handed out their maps when they don't really even pay attention to everything they need to prepare.. if you think BNs have to always pinpoint everything that the mappers carelessly do, you got an entirely wrong idea since the mappers are the one that has to ensure all of these already correct as it is.. we serve to make sure the map already well done for ranking thing, not modding from 50% ready to 100% ready.

Do you want to say people that already putting effort through their creation to be pushed for rank for a long time, hence being a well-known mapper has to rank the thing more or less the same timeframe as the one that just got into mapping? i don't know what to say honestly.. lol.

Bubble

Right now... just push map foward into qualified state, nothing else. It had meaning when mappers wasn't divided into "new" and "known". It had meaning when maps were trully quality and not pushed "by friends" into ranking (I just don't want to point out "certain" maps which are garbage in eyes of most players but still ranked).
lmaoooo.. it's already well established by many others in the first page thread that BNs have their own personal preference of what the map stands for them.. If one BN find that the current bubbled doesn't hold sufficient standard for them to be ranked, then they can simply walk out instead of doing long ass mod to make it hold standard quality.. as i already said before, BN serves as a purpose to make sure the map already well done, not modding from 50% to 100% lol.

Just my opinion.

well, I know i'm like repeating some of the statement before, but i feel like i need to remind people that instead of complaining of "well known mapper gets all while others get none" , why not to be more active in community not only in mapping, but actually modding and actually put effort to be socializing with many kinds of people? I already state earlier that while new people like to give assumption about BNs don't pay attention to new mappers, we as a BN can also see from another aspect that new mappers don't really trying to putting enough effort in improving their map, be more active in community or even try to "advertise" their map in front of community, it is what it is.

Back to topic, my meaning of bubble? it is already approved by ONE of other BNs , just it. I simply look at it as the map without the icon...

why not to be more active in community not only in mapping, but actually modding and actually put effort to be socializing with many kinds of people?

When you see situation like... you do mod in 2015, mapper is very active, desperately search for BN/QAT and gets dick into mouth... and his map gets ranked in Q3 of 2016 because *cought* new BNs got added and someone was interested in ranking his map... you don't feel like joining this or even bother to make your own map. It's discouraging. Situations like that stay in memory.

Few words about "standard quality":

Pushing through ranking maps which contain unjustified, not fitting to song theme difficulty spikes isn't a "quality". It's favorizing and it was proved already that certain mappers use "friends" to push their maps. You cannot deny this.

I am just glad that ranking criteria got updated and maybe time of "pp 1-2-1-2" and other this kind of thing will end quickly. I just wish partial BN will get fired and impartial members will nuke this maps, no matter if this is mr xxyyzz or it's Monstrata (nothing personal, just example).

Anyway, gotta still observe, maybe one day gonna dig up some old creations of mine and submit.

[Taiga] wrote:

why not to be more active in community not only in mapping, but actually modding and actually put effort to be socializing with many kinds of people?

When you see situation like... you do mod in 2015, mapper is very active, desperately search for BN/QAT and gets dick into mouth... and his map gets ranked in Q3 of 2016 because *cought* new BNs got added and someone was interested in ranking his map... you don't feel like joining this or even bother to make your own map. It's discouraging. Situations like that stay in memory.

Few words about "standard quality":

Pushing through ranking maps which contain unjustified, not fitting to song theme difficulty spikes isn't a "quality". It's favorizing and it was proved already that certain mappers use "friends" to push their maps. You cannot deny this.

I am just glad that ranking criteria got updated and maybe time of "pp 1-2-1-2" and other this kind of thing will end quickly. I just wish partial BN will get fired and impartial members will nuke this maps, no matter if this is mr xxyyzz or it's Monstrata (nothing personal, just example).

Anyway, gotta still observe, maybe one day gonna dig up some old creations of mine and submit.

Well then, then i will just leave my question here: all the famous mappers in osu world, no matter who is he/she , once also was the people from category of "new mapper with struggle to get their stuffs ranked", mind to tell me how they can be as they are now?

If they are "really active with all their effort" but somehow cannot get their stuffs ranked for numerous numerous times, then isn't it natural to assume that something really horrendously wrong with how they approach ranking system? just wanna say it to accompany my first question.

And if the quality is really suffered, people will just give feedback in qualification phase, that's how it works.. they cannot really push anything to ranked when community doesn't agree with it, it is just what it is.. if you find something with "low" quality stays in qualification phase, then join the discussion.

[Taiga] wrote:

Issue #1 - Modding and moders

Reminds me real life situation: You try to find work - everyone expect from you experience but nobody wants to provide it to you since... everyone already request from you to be experienced from time and space. Same goes here towards moders: Someone new have no ground to learn how to mod properly since, nobody care to give them "job", especially more experienced mappers who wants to speed-rank their maps and only request mods from their "friends" (props for Pishi who actually one day gave me job and provided knowledge, one of not many who care to teach). But you can just mod any map you want to and learn modding by doing? You don't have to ask someone how to mod because it should be self-explaining actually. And you actually can't even really teach modding, all you can do is tell someone what possible issues there may be. And saying that the majority of the experienced mappers want to speedrank their maps and only ask their friends for mods is really bullshit if you ask me, no idea where you got that from.

Going from this side - hard to get map modded properly since from my observation - mods from newbies are treated as "garbage", not counting, not existing in eyes of BN/QAT so you need million of mods to actually get something. Self-modding is a thing and you can learn mapping and modding without any help just by putting some effort into it. I can show you a good amount of people who only have one or no ranked maps at all, but are great at modding or mapping because they actually cared to improve by themselves by looking at and understanding maps instead of just waiting for a BN / QAT, which is a major problem nowadays.

How to solve it?

There is initiative to help new mappers to be better. Maybe make one for moders? Let them learn something, give them some kind of "test" at the end, let them obtain some kind of recommendation that "THIS guy actually know something and his mod can be treated as pretty valid". But nearly everyone treats every mod really valid, even if the guy is unknown. It completely depends on the quality of the mod, which like I said can be improved by looking at maps and understanding them. Who should make a test extra for them? QATs? They have enough to do. The community? Most of them are busy enough with their own stuff. Other than that, there's the community mentorship program where you can learn a lot and there are mapping contests sometimes where people judge your maps (which can also translate as how to mod something as they basically do that in the results).

Issue #2 - BN

They have real life. Like everyone does. They do mods, checks in their free time, for free but:

If you apply for position what require from you to do something in your free time, you will to do things, you are supposed to do this. Long time ago i willed to help in PvPGN and i done my part despite having job, real life, i spent my free time on this. Just an example. Now tell me at least 3 people who don't do stuff. I already said in an earlier post that everyone has different standards. I for example only mod maps that are somewhat unique (having a good concept basically) and are pretty much ready to rank. Is that wrong because I don't mod every damn map I get requested? I don't think so, and thinking that every BN should do so to satisfy the whole community is really stubborn because modding takes a lot of time and most of the time newer mappers just grave their map if they feel like it, so basically wasted work as well.

Right now BNs are like - priority for known mappers - Monstrata etc... "fuck new mappers", they are at the end of line IF some BN have last piece of time to look for their maps, it still mostly ends with "nuke this, garbage map", mostly without even looking for it (this comes from one of osu! BN, my personal conversation with him, cannot provide name, promised). For example - same map posted by known mapper and unknown mapper:
- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.
How it is right? It isn't, right, but it's reality of actual ranking process and lack of interest in new mappers. Alright, how is it wrong? You act like newer mappers can map as great as known mappers, which is wrong. Newer mappers rarely even have a concept when mapping something, mostly just placing random objects or having really bad aesthetics. Do you really think that newer mappers shouldn't be treated not as "harsh" as known ones? That would just lead to even less more chaos in the ranked section. Most mappers just don't do enough to become good and get something ranked, sounds dumb but that's the case.

Bubble

Right now... just push map foward into qualified state, nothing else. It had meaning when mappers wasn't divided into "new" and "known". It had meaning when maps were trully quality and not pushed "by friends" into ranking (I just don't want to point out "certain" maps which are garbage in eyes of most players but still ranked). Completely bullshit here, sorry for being harsh. There's no dividing at all at the moment, that's how the state looks to me. And saying that most people only can get maps ranked because of their friends is not only respectless to most BNs but also wrong, but I don't need to go in-depth to that as I explained everything above already...

Just my opinion.

But hey, I like how you say that most ranked maps are garbage but you still wan't BNs to help newer mappers to get maps ranked, which would just make the situation worse. BNs are not supposed to focus on maps of newer mappers, they are supposed to rank any map that is good. If their maps aren't good enough, then they have to live with it and try harder. However asking BNs stuff or ask for some advice never hurts as long as you don't expect like 3 hours of help or something.

hmmm

By help I meant to focus on ranking their maps rather than of experienced mappers, sorry for wrong wording ;;

Edited the post to avoid misunderstandings

ye, wording is hard
you also misunderstood me in my last post apparently, i personally never chased after BNs for stuff like that but it is painfully obvious that people do this from reading modreqs and other sources.
It's also not that easy to get the kind of overview in the community as a beginner. You may have that, others don't.
My critic mainly adresses how such behaviour is indirectly promoted which is definitely not a good thing - please just see it as that. I definitely agree with you in terms of what new mappers should best do but that way is nowhere promoted as the way to success and as such many people may feel stuck because they don't know how to get the attention of the correct people.

Sorry I haven't posted in this thread in a while, but I really didn't want this to become an all out attack on the bns. Please remember that the ranking process is mostly done by voluntary workers.

I'll be reading and replying to stuff later... (Who knows when), but I want to bring up a small thing.

[Taiga] wrote:

- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.

Map ranking time shouldn't exactly be counted as purely a difference between dates. To rank a map, you should count the time it takes to get the basic mods needed to get the map onto the right track and then the time it takes to get the mods necessary for qualification assuming it is fit for it. Maps that do more experimental things will always take longer to rank than generic maps.

Newer mappers will almost always need more mods to get on the right track, making the first step much longer. However, a new user that m4ms with every modder under the sun for days on end will for sure get more mods than a user that only asks for mods on weekends.

[Taiga] wrote:

- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.

Basically, when it's a "famous" mapper, they already know that the map has good quality and is probably already ready for ranking, so they can check them knowing they will push it forward without any issue

For "unknowns" mappers, they basically get tons and tons of request by them, probably most of the map are not even close to be ready, they can't check all of them by themselves, of course they're gonna need more time. They would need a lot of time to mod their maps correctly, so they can't check all of the requests 1 by 1. Of course, in the "unknowns" mappers, there is probably some which their maps are clean and ready, but as i said, since they got tons of request, they can't check all the maps. That's why they're gonna need more time to get their map ranked

Linada wrote:

[Taiga] wrote:

- Known mapper will rank it in 1 to 3 months.
- Unknown will need from 6 to 12 months.

Basically, when it's a "famous" mapper, they already know that the map has good quality and is probably already ready for ranking, so they can check them knowing they will push it forward without any issue

For "unknowns" mappers, they basically get tons and tons of request by them, probably most of the map are not even close to be ready, they can't check all of them by themselves, of course they're gonna need more time. They would need a lot of time to mod their maps correctly, so they can't check all of the requests 1 by 1. Of course, in the "unknowns" mappers, there is probably some which their maps are clean and ready, but as i said, since they got tons of request, they can't check all the maps. That's why they're gonna need more time to get their map ranked

but isn't it especially then important, to take Focus on new mappers, or on maps with lower Quality? for example, as stjpa already said - he just Looks on good Quality maps and mod them. when there's a bad Quality map, he ignores it. isn't this the main and most important issue here? :thinking:

Living Flower wrote:

but isn't it especially then important, to take Focus on new mappers, or on maps with lower Quality? for example, as stjpa already said - he just Looks on good Quality maps and mod them. when there's a bad Quality map, he ignores it. isn't this the main and most important issue here? :thinking:

Simple answer: No.

1) More experienced mappers need to rank their maps too, and we already have a lot less BNs than experienced mappers so even good mappers are struggling to rank maps
2) Everyone can learn mapping solely by themself, blaming the BNs or the system is nothing else but laziness. And like I already said, there's the whole community who can help you, not only some people who passed a test, all you need to do is asking them for help

It's not a BN's responsibility to teach people how to map, it's their job to select maps that are ready for qualification.

while BNs are considered to be experienced modders it doesn't mean they have the duty or the obligation to look at low quality maps.
As for the "teaching" part there is the mentorship program for the sole reason that BNs aren't supposed to teach. Some of them do teach sometimes (like what I do in my mods sometimes) but it's up to each BN

Stjpa wrote:

2) Everyone can learn mapping solely by themself

Ahhhh, so many years spent with my maps trying to figure out what was wrong with them... :'(

I'd say that "if I did it, you can too" to anyone blaming others for their incompetence in learning mapping I guess

nowdays it usually requires the mapper to actively find a 2nd bn where as before, bats were encouraged to clear bubbled maps?

Kibbleru wrote:

nowdays it usually requires the mapper to actively find a 2nd

always was like this

Kibbleru wrote:

nowdays it usually requires the mapper to actively find a 2nd bn where as before, bats were encouraged to clear bubbled maps?

Before, you still usually had to find a 2nd BAT most of the time, but there was more belief among the staff that bubbles shouldn't be piling up like the way they are now, resulting in various campaigns and what not.

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Kibbleru wrote:

nowdays it usually requires the mapper to actively find a 2nd bn where as before, bats were encouraged to clear bubbled maps?

Before, you still usually had to find a 2nd BAT most of the time, but there was more belief among the staff that bubbles shouldn't be piling up like the way they are now, resulting in various campaigns and what not.

yeah i guess so, but back then i find that there were alot of cases where BATs approached my bubbled maps without me asking.
nowdays its alot more rare i think

Living Flower wrote:

but isn't it especially then important, to take Focus on new mappers, or on maps with lower Quality? for example, as stjpa already said - he just Looks on good Quality maps and mod them. when there's a bad Quality map, he ignores it. isn't this the main and most important issue here? :thinking:

I'm probably the one that thinks like that (I hope I will not be offensive or else, that's not my intention) -

BN main role is to bubble/qualify the map if they judge that the set is good enough to be in the Ranked section. So I think that if the map doesn't have a good quality, the set deserves to have more mods before calling back the BN. There is also very great modders that are not BNs, and we should not forget them.

There is not so much BN compared to the active "good" Pending beatmaps, so that's why, as Stjpa said, it's better if BNs are focused on quality beatmaps, and let the other modders, helping the "average/bad" quality set to improve it, and make it better to potentially give it a rankable state!

So if the BN judges that your maps is not good enough, don't blame them, and try to work on your set to make it better

That's my point of view~ !
Have a good day