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[Unwritten Rule Discussion] 1/4 Hyperdashes on Platter (CTB)

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MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb
So, a rule (I'm taking it as a rule because maps have been disqualified for this in the past, and still BNs and QATs say not to use them) for ctb, is that in Platter (Or Hard) difficulties, you're not allowed to use Hyperdashes at 1/4 snap on 140bpm or above, or the equivalent in other snaps.

What I've noticed is that a few mappers refuse to accept this as a rule, thinking it's just a modder trying to nerf their map, when it is simply not allowed. My main want is just to put this in the Catch The Beat Ranking Criteria, either as a rule (Which I feel it should be) or at least a guideline, so that it is more officially recognised. However I also want to hear thoughts as to whether a 1/4 HDash would be fine in a Platter in some situations (For example, on the last note of a map, or last note before a break, as the player doesn't need to react after that).

oh also inb4 someone says that cup not having dashes isn't on ranking criteria but people follow that anyway (i want that on ranking criteria too but one step at a time folks)
BoberOfDarkness
1,061 posts
Joined October 2013
BoberOfDarkness
I am totally for makking rules that will be on RC

you want to make 1/4 dashes ranable in some cases so I want to make possibility for adding 1/2 hypers dashes on Salad in same situations
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion
I believe that particularly short or "snappy" hdashes should not be a feature of Platter difficulties, as the purpose of these diffs is to introduce players to hdash. As such, hdash in these difficulties should be used infrequently and sensibly, avoiding any particularly tricky patterns.

I always wondered where the "magic number" of 1/4 @ 140 BPM originated from, and I'd be interested to hear others' opinions on this, as I feel that the pattern in which a hdash is used is often more significant than usage itself. For example, if the note is the last in a section and precedes a break (or the end of the song), there's minimal "penalty" in terms of HP drain for missing the jump compared to if the jump leads into a stream or some other rhythm with high note density. When evaluating an element like this, there are a number of other factors I consider besides the actual jump:
  1. Is there a direction change involved before or after the jump that could increase the chance of a miss?
  2. How "strong" is the hdash, and is this fitting for the intensity of the sound being mapped?
  3. What will the inclusion of the hdash mean for the player? Are they likely to "learn" from it, or just get frustrated by it?
  4. and so on.
In this way, I believe that in some scenarios, hdash above the current "limit" could be acceptable, but that this should really be carefully considered by all parties during the mapping and modding process. If people want to start using supposedly "trickier" hdash on Platters, learning how to use them appropriately is essential. Therefore, this feels more like it should be a guideline to me.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I am totally for makking rules that will be on RC

you want to make 1/4 dashes ranable in some cases so I want to make possibility for adding 1/2 hypers dashes on Salad in same situations
I would prefer to keep HDashes out of salads in general, to be honest *stares at Krah*
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,407 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
I am pretty new into CTB mapping but I agree pretty much with MB's post above. HDashes should be used with caution in Platter and not in Salad already. I feel that the current gap Cup>Salad>Platter works for the most time and should be hold by this way. like in Taiko we start using Triplets from Muzukashii and not Futsuu already.
SurfTheWaves
1 post
Joined April 2015
SurfTheWaves
I also am completely for this, although i am a firm believer in working up to things slowly; so what i'm saying might be biased
Kurokami
osu! Alumni
4,024 posts
Joined February 2010
Kurokami
We did a little discussion back then where the "1/4 140 bpm" came up but never reached a conclusion. Because of a simple example, if we allow 1/4s until 140 bpm, then someone might come with a 141 one and say its not that far away from 140 so why not? Then 142, 143, .... This will never end.

Here it comes the first question, why 140 bpm and not 150, or 130, 120? What or who should decide this? Slower maps might not even has 1/4 beats so this rule can be completely useless.

On the other hand, several player, coming from other modes says that the gap between Salad and Platter is huge. Allowing 1/4s will only make this gap bigger though we should aim to shorten it. Allowing HDashes on Salad is out of question.

I was agreed with allowing them in the past but my viewpoint changed a lot and now I don't want to see any of them. There are places where it could fit nicely but hey, we already ignoring a lot of possible place for a jump on Cup and Salad just to make them fit to the rules.

Some modder refuses to agree with it? Sure. Ignore their maps.

tr;dr No, I don't want to allow this kind of jumps earlier than they should be. We need a learning curve for them and I think the current standards works just fine.
MBomb
Topic Starter
MBomb

Kurokami wrote:

tr;dr No, I don't want to allow this kind of jumps earlier than they should be. We need a learning curve for them and I think the current standards works just fine.
I agree with this, to be honest. Whilst I wanted to raise discussion about cases in which they would work, to me I think the rule is fine how it is, my main thing is that I want it to get added to RC either as a rule or a guideline.
ZiRoX
Elite Mapper
1,052 posts
Joined November 2009
ZiRoX

- Magic Bomb - wrote:

Kurokami wrote:

tr;dr No, I don't want to allow this kind of jumps earlier than they should be. We need a learning curve for them and I think the current standards works just fine.
I agree with this, to be honest. Whilst I wanted to raise discussion about cases in which they would work, to me I think the rule is fine how it is, my main thing is that I want it to get added to RC either as a rule or a guideline.
If we agree that they shouldn't be used in any case, then it should be a rule. If they would be allowed under certain circumstances, it should be a guideline stating that they should be used very carefully, mainly in lower BPMs and so on.

Personally, I wouldn't put it as a guideline because there are some stubborn mappers out there. If it's somehow allowed, some will go "it's a guideline, not a rule, they are fine" or "BNs this and BNs that". So, even though I have tried to push one 1/4 hyperdash on a Platter before, I think the safest is to forbid them through a rule.
JBHyperion
osu!catch Paragon
3,885 posts
Joined September 2014
JBHyperion

ZiRoX wrote:

Personally, I wouldn't put it as a guideline because there are some stubborn mappers out there. If it's somehow allowed, some will go "it's a guideline, not a rule, they are fine" or "BNs this and BNs that". So, even though I have tried to push one 1/4 hyperdash on a Platter before, I think the safest is to forbid them through a rule.

Kurokami wrote:

Some modder refuses to agree with it? Sure. Ignore their maps.
^ this
Myxo
osu! Alumni
3,103 posts
Joined December 2012
Myxo
With the change of how the Ranking Criteria Subforum works from now on, topics like these are obsolete.
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