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[New Rule] Hitsounds must not have a delay

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TicClick
Global Moderator
4,422 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
TicClick
RC currently has nothing about it, but there are already two maps that fell victim to it, Mira-san's World End's Dancehall and Norman's A Symphony Of Justice (this has been noticed only recently (about a month ago)).

Delay is a waveform's section before the first peak that is audible enough to be heard and recognized. It may be seen via any sound editor (there are also online editors, such as TwistedWave:
SPOILER

The above example has a delay of almost 10ms, as shown on the bottom scale.

Why do we need the rule? Because delayed hitsounds (especially hitnormals) sound mistimed, since their audible part starts playing not exactly at the time of hit, but later.

Why there is no such rule yet? Because most of hitsounds floating around osu! are starting exactly on time or have a small delay which can be neglected (0 − 5ms), and because no one has actually checked for that ever: delayless hitsounds were a given.

P.S. I don't have a good wording for that rule, feel free to add it.
P.P.S.

inverness feat. Frostmourne & Scorpiour wrote:

Hitsounds must have an acceptable range of delay under 5ms, unless there's a special purpose. Every hitsound file should start in time, preferrably at 0ms. This is to ensure that every map doesn't sound mistimed, and therefore could provide acceptably synchronized rhythm feedback to players.
Last edited by TicClick , edited 1 time in total.
tiper
tiper
Agreed.
"All hitsound samples must be delayless" probably?
69653863
1,818 posts
Joined January 2012
69653863
Totally supporting this. Just add it already *_*

Hitsound files must not have any delay at all. Every hitsound files should start in time, preferrably starts in 0ms. This is to ensure every map doesn't sound mistimed and therefore could provide synchronized rhythm feedback to players.
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
Agreed with the way inverness wrote about.
Just wanting to modify wording a bit under here

inverness wrote:

Hitsound files must have an acceptable range of delay between +-5ms. Every hitsound files should start in time, preferrably starts in 0ms. This is to ensure that every map doesn't sound mistimed, and therefore could provide acceptably synchronized rhythm feedback to players.
Just to support the word "preferrably" on "preferrably starts in 0ms" as it implies that it doesn't need to be exactly +-0ms.

+-5ms is an acceptable range used for timing the offset to the maps so it makes sense to have the same condition for other hitsound files when an mp3 file is considered to be an audio file as well.

Not yet bubbled for more rewordings by other QATs/GMTs/BATs who are English native speaker.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
I feel like this can't be a rule because it implies that every sample in a set requires zero attack on the sound. It may be rare, but someone may wish to intentionally delay a sample (For whatever reason that may be, I do not know) to achieve a desired effect.

I'm sure you've all played talent shredder before. At the start of a kiai section there's a sample that plays a crowd cheering. I think samples like that should not require trimming to 0ms as they do not have an active component that aids player timing. Another map that does something like that is the passive sample at the end of this (now unrankable) map.

It should go without saying that active samples (placed in order to aid player timing) should require as-close-to-zero-as-possible-trimming. Keeping in mind that just because there's sound data or energy at the start of a sample, does not mean that the section of audio used to aid timing exists at that point. This is known as attack. Here's an illustration I stole from http://filmsound.org/



As we've never really had massive problems in the past with these kind of things (close enough is generally acceptable in most cases) I don't believe this should be a rule. Instead it should be a general courtesy by anyone adding custom samples to their maps to ensure they're reasonably trimmed. Also for the qualifying BAT to do a quick check before moving a map forward, and this could be resolved easily. The biggest problem is people borrowing samples from other mapsets, and as they become more widespread, it becomes harder to stop people using bad "eggs".

Go check this page for more information and stuff http://filmsound.org/articles/ninecompo ... htm#rhythm
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,422 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
TicClick

Lach wrote:

I forgot that such hitsounds exist. Well, we can alter the rule, making it applicable only for active hitsounds.
Scorpiour
2,633 posts
Joined May 2011
Scorpiour
I would like to reword this to

Hitsound file must have an acceptable range of delay between +/- 5ms, unless there's a special purpose
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
That would work. Although I'm not sure how you have a negative delay without half the peak of the sample being clipped out.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
Supporting the revision Scorpiour stated; it's very important to spot these hitsound attack issues and attend to them.
Wafu
1,703 posts
Joined June 2011
Wafu
Totally supporting the way Scorpiour said. That will probably solve all the issues around this.
TicClick
Global Moderator
4,422 posts
Joined February 2011
Topic Starter
TicClick
Okay, so final version is:

inverness feat. Frostmourne & Scorpiour wrote:

Hitsounds must have an acceptable range of delay under 5ms, unless there's a special purpose. Every hitsound file should start in time, preferrably at 0ms. This is to ensure that every map doesn't sound mistimed, and therefore could provide acceptably synchronized rhythm feedback to players.
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
Looking good to me!
Atrue
osu! Alumni
1,017 posts
Joined July 2012
Atrue
Agree on this rule.
Bubbling since it has been discussed and been made accurate for now.
Current version:
Hitsounds must have an acceptable range of delay under 5ms, unless there's a special purpose. Every hitsound file should start in time, preferrably at 0ms. This is to ensure that every map doesn't sound mistimed, and therefore could provide acceptably synchronized rhythm feedback to players.
Shohei Ohtani
Shohei Ohtani
I thought I remembered something from Loctav saying that only he and Ephemeral could bubble stuff o-o.

I can't find it, though ;w;
Lust
osu! Alumni
2,667 posts
Joined January 2013
Lust
The message stated that all members of the GMT and QAT were able to bubble, but only Ephemeral and Loctav are allowed to finalize it into the ranking criteria.

Loctav wrote:

If you think that a discussion is about to conclude and you think it's ready for amendment, bubble it and send a PM to me and Ephemeral for revision. This counts for all game modes. Bubbling can be performed by QATs and GMTs. Don't forget that. Anyways, everyone, BATs, GMTs, QATs and normal users can open threads and raise their suggestions and concern. I actively encourage EVERYONE of you to participate in this discussions to avoid the case that people complain about a changed rule, because they missed to raise their concern appropriately
Looking forward to this being approved.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Looks fine.
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