Ranking Criteria wrote:

1. Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 5 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 5 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.

change to
or something like that.

I can't speak for the other game modes, but in Taiko I think, 5 minutes is too much when considering the game mode itself. Unlike osu where you have more possibilities to set different patterns, in taiko you don't have. The game has only one axe and contains overall the same patterns since there is only don and kat. As far as I know, in ryhthm games the average lenght of a map is about 2 minutes(?). In Taiko it's normaly the same case, especially when looking at TNT maps which does fit pretty well considering the gameplay of Taiko. But above this average it becomes problematic in several aspects.

As I said, in Taiko there aren't as many patterns as osu can provide. Hence, mapping to a +5 minute song can become really quick repetitive. On a set it is even more problematic. Sometimes there appear songs which are 4:30 minutes long and people have to make a full spread for it in Taiko, which for Kantan and Futsuu isn't really healthy. Imagine a Kantan on a 4 minute song which is mostly mapped to 4/1 with some 2/1 beats. There isn't much room like in osu to make big differences in patterns. Diffs become repetitive, even from set to set.

I don't know how other Taiko people think about this, but my suggestion is to lower down the draining time for approval maps in taiko to 3 minutes. 3 minutes is already really, really long in Taiko and should be more than enough for a approval map. This also helps to have some varriety in song selections.
So far, most sets we get ranked are TV size maps - not only because songs sound nice, but also because it is just easier to map shorter songs.

In this way, I expect to see more varriety in the song selections for the game mode Taiko, especially in the harder sections. HARDCORE TANO*C maps for example are all about 4:50 minutes long, hence need a full set, which is for most people too hard to map on lower diffs. In nearly all casses -yes, all- it just leads to graveyard maps due to spread problems with over 6 diffs or too hard lower diffs.

Actually there are way more reasons why I'm the opinion to change this rule. TWC needs also fresh new maps and we need sometimes harder maps as well to make the game mode somewhat atractive. And I didn't even spoke about the way 4min sets penetrate mappers in Taiko, especially when they try to have varriety in a map. It's a pain - more than that.

For the other game modes I don't know, but maybe those people can add something here.
For Taiko I can just say, that I see such change as needed. I wonder what other people say about this.

To be honest, maybe three minutes is reeeeeeally stretching it, but seeing as how you do present the "repetitive" argument (which is actually really hard to avoid on some songs; they are that repetitive) and yeah, it is hard to map low-diffs for a long time without going absolutely mind-numbing, even for beginners this could drag insanely due to the low activity being done over a very LONG period of time. I'd probably say reduce the timer to 4 minutes, 3 minutes just seems a bit too short to be considered a "Marathon".

Or just readd approved category for 7 min+ songs and at 4 minutes you can map less diffs of a set in all game modes?

Well it isn't a bad idea imo but as Dain said, 3mn is a bit short, I would prefer something like 4mn

Dainesl wrote:

To be honest, maybe three minutes is reeeeeeally stretching it, but seeing as how you do present the "repetitive" argument (which is actually really hard to avoid on some songs; they are that repetitive) and yeah, it is hard to map low-diffs for a long time without going absolutely mind-numbing, even for beginners this could drag insanely due to the low activity being done over a very LONG period of time. I'd probably say reduce the timer to 4 minutes, 3 minutes just seems a bit too short to be considered a "Marathon".

maybe 4:30, 4 still seems a bit short

I doubt 30 seconds make any big difference at all @ Jaitonat.

I still stick to 3 minutes or what Nwolf suggested in #taiko, 3:30 minutes in Taiko. Reasons are in OP of course.

As a CtB player and mapper I'm going to voice my opinion here.

As much as I dislike the time rule that is enforced, I think that time-wise CtB is fine, there is no real lack of patterns to put in when compared with Taiko so repetitiveness doesn't really cause a problem for us. However, I do know that some people do find harder difficulty (Rain/Overdose) levels combined with high drain time (Around 4 minutes or so?) very tiring and demanding to play and that sometimes does cause problems. I would look into this more but the severe lack of Approved maps for CtB with only a select few very hard and demanding maps leads to a lack of information for this.

Personally, I would like to see a reduction in the drain time required as there are plenty of maps out there that would fit an approved category very well in my opinion but have a drain time that prevents them from doing so.

This is just a scatter of my thoughts, I didn't know how to word it properly so I hope its understandable.

Don't you think this rule will significantly drop amount of difficulties for casual players for ~3 min songs?

three minutes are too less. That full depends on the song and I would go at 3:30 ~ four minutes at least.

OnosakiHito wrote:

So far, most sets we get ranked are TV size maps - not only because songs sound nice, but also because it is just easier to map shorter songs.

Because mapping the full Version of an opening/ending is often just looped or has really really small differences between the 1st chours and the 2nd - which is imo very unworthy to map.

OnosakiHito wrote:

In this way, I expect to see more varriety in the song selections for the game mode Taiko, especially in the harder sections. HARDCORE TANO*C maps for example are all about 4:50 minutes long, hence need a full set, which is for most people too hard to map on lower diffs. In nearly all casses -yes, all- it just leads to graveyard maps due to spread problems with over 6 diffs or too hard lower diffs.

Yes I agree.

Sieg wrote:

Don't you think this rule will significantly drop amount of difficulties for casual players for ~3 min songs?

That could happens so I am really unsure about the situation. But I also understand the sense behind of this change suggestion.

This projects a more elitist community/player base compared to the already existing one. Provided that naturally fewer maps of easier difficulties for longer songs will be mapped, this is saying "you can only play long maps if you're good enough".

The only thing that would make me sad is that we'll be looking more 1 diff sets.

Rather make the spread rule more "flexible", at least for Taiko I agree on the reasoning, but I think that's a way rushed solution.
This would likely attack what you consider the problem and still cover a lot of playerbase.
Incomplete spreads looks bad for me, but I have to agree some songs are way long and repetitive for newbie players to do.

However, we should be encouraging more difficulties when it's possible, as in the songs in the 3-5 min gap that aren't repetitive at all, rare cases, but still.

The existing one didn't work for Taiko till now, because longer maps nearly never got ranked. Okay, it's also modding based of course. But as I said, up to some point, lower diffs are mapped in a really similar up to more or less identical way in taiko. Especially on long maps.

I understand the concerns from those and Sieg fully. Again, I can't speak for the other modes, but in taiko this system doesn't work well. If it would, the face of ranked maps would/could have look different.

@DakeDekaane: Not bad idea. But don't forget that we do not need Kantan at all. So maybe we should start from Futsuu on a lower drain time.
But even so, I doubt this would be a big problem with the one diff. 3 minute is still something not many people like to map? I might be wrong, but the fact that people still map Kantan instead of only Futsuu is something that should make people reconsider this 1-diff concern.

@Dake's post: this is what I would find way better, newer player will perfer shorter maps to learn this and everything above four minutes is a torture in Kantan/Futsuu (partly), honestly. I support this idea very much.

OnosakiHito wrote:

3 minute is still something not many people like to map? I might be wrong, but the fact that people still map Kantan instead of only Futsuu is something that should make people reconsider this 1-diff concern.

I must say as one of the lazier mappers I have no problems to map a Muzukashii, it starts to become a pain from Futsuu. But yes, heard a lot of people having trouble in mapping Muzukashii/Futsuu Difficulties.

i think 5 minutes is fine for any of the modes.
why bother differentiating between modes? it's just going to stir up pointless drama.
if you honestly think mapping a half-reptitive song for over 3 minutes is hard for taiko that means you just need to be more creative.
or better off: just don't map it if it doesn't work for you. you shouldn't force yourself to map a song just because you like the song.

i mean, i would agree with very special cases of 4 minutes length (maybe 4:30 instead), but honestly, 3:30 isn't all that long and making a unique, fun or interesting map for that length, even if the song is a tad repetitive, isn't all that hard.

In all honesty, I'm okay with current time restrictions.
Considering the typical pop/rock song is around 3-4 minutes with verse-chorus-verse-chorus structure, I feel it is very possible to still map an interesting map. A little repitition (for instance with verse-verse and chorus-chorus) with a few minor changes between each iteration (usually, making it ever so slightly harder on later repititions) would make for a sufficiently decent map, at least in my opinion.
Perhaps it's a little more difficult to categorize for songs not following this verse-chorus structure, but not following this either means it's very different all the way through (in which case monotony is not an issue) or it's a very repetitive song by nature (such as some EDM or trance) in which case one might not consider it being a good choice to map (and even there one can use freeform mapping to maybe come up with something interesting).

If the issue is people being lazy (lazy to map easier difficulties, lazy to mod easier difficulties and/or long songs), then that perhaps is an issue on the part of the user end, not quite the rules. The rules may affect the behavior of users, I'll admit, which is why I think this may encourage laziness.
Just my two cents.

What will be with hybrid sets like osu/taiko - will this rule made single Oni/Inner Oni with std (or other mode) diffs approve-able/rankable if they reach required drain time? Are hybrid sets will needs two taiko BATs instead of one according to that?

CoroQuetz wrote:

If the issue is people being lazy (lazy to map easier difficulties, lazy to mod easier difficulties and/or long songs), then that perhaps is an issue on the part of the user end, not quite the rules. The rules may affect the behavior of users, I'll admit, which is why I think this may encourage laziness.
Just my two cents.

this is it.
this rule shouldnt go with such app category as only 1 diff mapset.

CoroQuetz wrote:

If the issue is people being lazy (lazy to map easier difficulties, lazy to mod easier difficulties and/or long songs), then that perhaps is an issue on the part of the user end, not quite the rules. The rules may affect the behavior of users, I'll admit, which is why I think this may encourage laziness.
Just my two cents.

The idea to switch into a Collab would also work as long the mapping styles aren't completely different like day and night.

The lack of interesting patterns do not warrant that approval should be shorter. Approvals are indeed marathons. 3:30 is no marathon. Specific game modes do not get a special treatment here. If you think that 5 minutes maps in tailors are too boring or too exhausting, be creative. But do not try to avoid mapping full spreads. Generally spoken, osu! never encouraged it to map full songs, hence the old guidelines even stated that if the song is too long that you shall simply cut it.

I see no point in this change. A few years ago, cutting a song was common. Sorry to disappoint you, but I read all explanations an they satisfy me below zero.

No change.