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[Proposal] Remove BMS from Source

posted
Total Posts
22
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
Nerova Riuz GX
We've been using BMS as Source from 2012 (or even much earlier), but it's obviously incorrect and may be misleading.

What is BMS?


BMS is actually a name of file type. It was first created to simulate Beatmania IIDX, which can be used in software like BM98 or Lunatic Rave 2. In other words, BMS is actually quite similar to .osz files.

Why should we remove it from Source?


Basically, there are three problems that appear when maps have BMS Sources:

  1. There's no reason for us to use a file type's name as Source. All the other sources are representing a game, a movie, a fiction, or even a campaign. They're all identical and can be tracked with their names.
  2. "BMS" is quite vague and cannot reflect any useful information. Since BMS is being used for years, there are tons of music production (or even reproduction) depends on it. After 20 years of developing, "BMS" has songs in different types and genres. By simply writing "BMS" people can't gain any other "useful" information about the song.
  3. BMS Sources are misleading. Like I said in the first problem, people might think "BMS" is a game or fiction. Any information included in metadata shouldn't be misleading, they should be correct or people won't be able to recognize them.


Proposing an Alternative


Here's an alternative I proposed if we're going to remove it from Source:

  1. Leave it blank. The simplest way to solve the problem.
  2. If the song's produced for an event, use the event's name as Source. There are quite a lot of events like the BOF series and FRENZ series, which may include some BMS songs. Filling the event's name can help people find the song if they want to.

"BMS" can still be filled into tags for players to search.

That's all from me. For people who understand how BMS works (like me) this can be quite triggering, so I'm making a proposal and hope you guys can leave your thoughts here.
Nao Tomori
osu! Alumni
3,107 posts
Joined December 2014
Nao Tomori
wouldnt it be better to use lr2 or iidx or something as source in that case
lenpai
1,780 posts
Joined December 2014
lenpai
thank you. i agree
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
Nerova Riuz GX

Nao Tomori wrote:

wouldnt it be better to use lr2 or iidx or something as source in that case


IIDX is definitely wrong since BMS songs never have their appearances in it.

Having LR2 in Source is pretty weird: It shouldn't be filled in Source just because it has the ability to open BMS files. osu! can import BMS files as well, does that mean we can fill "osu!" in Source on these songs?

There are many applications can do the same task, LR2 is just more famous and wide-spread than the others.
FAMoss
osu! Alumni
1,161 posts
Joined January 2016
FAMoss
cool, i agree

but sometimes bms songs repacked included remix, like LeaF did from touhou
does this can be solved the Source by from remixed came ?

example on several maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/897547 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/592272 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism.
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
Nerova Riuz GX

FAMoss wrote:

cool, i agree

but sometimes bms songs repacked included remix, like LeaF did from touhou
does this can be solved the Source by from remixed came ?

example on several maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/897547 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/592272 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism.


There are actually two solutions:
  1. Use the event's name, as written in the proposal. Take the first map as an example, the Source should be "東方音弾遊戯4".
  2. Use the Touhou game source. Almost every Touhou song do it like this.


Songs like this can be questionable, it will be great if we can make some consequences and post a rule on these. Personally, I would like to use the first one since it can reflect both topics (BMS event and Touhou), and it's much closer to where the song actually came.
roufou
987 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou
While I disagree that there is "no reason" to use BMS as source, I do concede that most of those reasons are kinda poor.

I personally think the idea of using the event names as source would technically be most accurate, or no source. It's actually quite a finicky topic that I feel technically could be up to the artist of the song, but since we can't just ask every artist what they intended with the song it makes most sense to me to use event names for the source of songs.

Honestly I don't think it matters much as long as BMS is kept in tags, assuming source were to be regarded as wrong. Honestly I'm a bit iffy cause I think BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted, but I must agree events make more sense are source.
Pachiru
osu! Alumni
2,956 posts
Joined June 2013
Pachiru
I agree with that proposal. I thought it was already the case though since I haven't seen recent maps with BMS as source. (edit: after checking there is a lot indeed)
Last edited by Pachiru , edited 1 time in total.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
BMS is used like a "common source" for all bms charts and events. This includes all events from http://manbow.nothing.sh/event/event.cgi and http://www.bmsoffighters.net/ for japanese events and https://k-bms.com/ for korean ones.

You cannot find any other alternative concerning source names unless you mention the event of the mapped song, and it could be more misleading, for example if you want to map a song like Sakuzyo feat. Nikki Simmons - Destr0yer which has currently "BMS" as source, you must use "G2R2018" as source instead, but using "BMS of fighters 2018" or "BOF2018" as source is also possible, there's no "common" source.
There is also a rule in RC which tells to use the original source for an arranged song, it happened to me once when i tried to rank this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/905158 because the original song comes from a BMS event, but the song itself definitely has no source.

i agree with what agu said : "BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted". when you cannot find a viable alternative for each case, using an universal one for everything is, imo, the best.
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
Nerova Riuz GX

Cherry Blossom wrote:

You cannot find any other alternative concerning source names unless you mention the event of the mapped song, and it could be more misleading, for example if you want to map a song like Sakuzyo feat. Nikki Simmons - Destr0yer which has currently "BMS" as source, you must use "G2R2018" as source instead, but using "BMS of fighters 2018" or "BOF2018" as source is also possible, there's no "common" source.

There will always be an "official full event name" for every BMS event. For example, the full name of "G2R2018" is "G2R2018 Climax -GO BACK 2 YOUR ROOTS 2018 climax-". It's pretty long but still "common", trackable, and clear.

even PABAT! series have their official event name, so using event names won't be a problem on making things clear.

==========================================================

Cherry Blossom wrote:

i agree with what agu said : "BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted". when you cannot find a viable alternative for each case, using an universal one for everything is, imo, the best.

The reason behind BMS being universally accepted is that people didn't try to fix it and to use other clearer ones. Though "BMS" is quite simple, comparing to all the other Sources BMS is much vaguer and more unclear. That's why this proposal is made.


==========================================================

Cherry Blossom wrote:

There is also a rule in RC which tells to use the original source for an arranged song, it happened to me once when i tried to rank this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/905158 because the original song comes from a BMS event, but the song itself definitely has no source.

Things written in this proposal should still be applied in that case, but that's because of the RC rule you mentioned. But same to the Touhou series, remixed/arranged songs sometimes are not even related to the "original source."

IMO this is actually another topic, which is about how to correctly write Sources of remixed/arranged songs.
Cherry Blossom
3,185 posts
Joined October 2011
Cherry Blossom
ok, almost everything you stated is fine.
I have also some concern, as some people stated, BMS isn't really an "official game" such as beatmania IIDX, there are just event with charts for LR2, but putting LR2 as source would be wrong. Putting event names (assume there are official names and not ambiguous ones) may be also wrong because it's not a game but a list of different charts made by artists, with some ranking stuff, teams etc. It looks more like a contest than a game actually.
Using "BMS" as source may have been a mistake since the beginning,
xtrem3x
1,786 posts
Joined July 2009
xtrem3x
change the BMS to ...

Source: event where the song is presented
Tags: BMS

meh...
clayton
1,928 posts
Joined November 2013
clayton
I don't think event names belong in the source, I think "source" is meant to reference other media that the music belongs to. contests should be tagged

but yeah BMS shouldn't be the source regardless. the only argument I can see against this is that it's become a recognizable category for songs over the years
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
seems the consensus here is that BMS shouldn't be used as a source, seems reasonable. events in source don't seem appropriate, so i'd just leave source blank in these situations

what im wondering is how this would be written in the ranking criteria though. saying "don't use bms as source" seems wrong when we don't have phrases like "don't use [YouTube/vimeo/niconico etc] as source" either

if anything, this seems more like something to just... make BNs and mappers aware of? if BMS doesnt make sense as a source, maps using it should be reported and dealt with in the modding/qualification processes

if it helps, an announcement can be made to all BNs so they're aware of it. before that though, is there anyone who wants to keep BMS as a possible source? and why?
Noffy
Nomination Assessment Team
1,685 posts
Joined April 2012
Noffy

pishifat wrote:

what im wondering is how this would be written in the ranking criteria though. saying "don't use bms as source" seems wrong when we don't have phrases like "don't use [YouTube/vimeo/niconico etc] as source" either


that is mentioned in the source rule though ->

rc wrote:

Website or album names are not an acceptable source.


add it there? maybe
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
Website names, album names, or BMS are not acceptable sources.

does this work as a reword for that sentence then?
Nerova Riuz GX
1,413 posts
Joined April 2012
Topic Starter
Nerova Riuz GX
the reword looks okay. it should be clear enough for people to understand, imo.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2453 will be pending for a few days for last minute input
xenal
537 posts
Joined August 2017
xenal
Original propsal is about BMS, but just having "Website names, album names, or BMS" sounds weird. Can't BMS be generalised to something else and have it made as example?
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
i think generalizing as "file types" wouldn't get across that BMS is disallowed as clearly. not sure why it needs to be generalized when it's the only one of its kind relevant to this rule as well

also merged
roufou
987 posts
Joined September 2011
roufou
how about wording it as "Website names, album names, or events (such as BMS)"?
_VianK_
785 posts
Joined August 2015
_VianK_
why not
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