wouldnt it be better to use lr2 or iidx or something as source in that case
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[Proposal] Remove BMS from Source
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thank you. i agree
Topic Starter
Nao Tomori wrote:
wouldnt it be better to use lr2 or iidx or something as source in that case
IIDX is definitely wrong since BMS songs never have their appearances in it.
Having LR2 in Source is pretty weird: It shouldn't be filled in Source just because it has the ability to open BMS files. osu! can import BMS files as well, does that mean we can fill "osu!" in Source on these songs?
There are many applications can do the same task, LR2 is just more famous and wide-spread than the others.
cool, i agree
but sometimes bms songs repacked included remix, like LeaF did from touhou
does this can be solved the Source by from remixed came ?
example on several maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/897547 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/592272 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism.
but sometimes bms songs repacked included remix, like LeaF did from touhou
does this can be solved the Source by from remixed came ?
example on several maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/897547 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/592272 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism.
Topic Starter
FAMoss wrote:
cool, i agree
but sometimes bms songs repacked included remix, like LeaF did from touhou
does this can be solved the Source by from remixed came ?
example on several maps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/897547 東方永夜抄 ～ Imperishable Night
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/592272 東方地霊殿 ～ Subterranean Animism.
There are actually two solutions:
- Use the event's name, as written in the proposal. Take the first map as an example, the Source should be "東方音弾遊戯4".
- Use the Touhou game source. Almost every Touhou song do it like this.
Songs like this can be questionable, it will be great if we can make some consequences and post a rule on these. Personally, I would like to use the first one since it can reflect both topics (BMS event and Touhou), and it's much closer to where the song actually came.
While I disagree that there is "no reason" to use BMS as source, I do concede that most of those reasons are kinda poor.
I personally think the idea of using the event names as source would technically be most accurate, or no source. It's actually quite a finicky topic that I feel technically could be up to the artist of the song, but since we can't just ask every artist what they intended with the song it makes most sense to me to use event names for the source of songs.
Honestly I don't think it matters much as long as BMS is kept in tags, assuming source were to be regarded as wrong. Honestly I'm a bit iffy cause I think BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted, but I must agree events make more sense are source.
I personally think the idea of using the event names as source would technically be most accurate, or no source. It's actually quite a finicky topic that I feel technically could be up to the artist of the song, but since we can't just ask every artist what they intended with the song it makes most sense to me to use event names for the source of songs.
Honestly I don't think it matters much as long as BMS is kept in tags, assuming source were to be regarded as wrong. Honestly I'm a bit iffy cause I think BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted, but I must agree events make more sense are source.
I agree with that proposal. I thought it was already the case though since I haven't seen recent maps with BMS as source. (edit: after checking there is a lot indeed)
BMS is used like a "common source" for all bms charts and events. This includes all events from http://manbow.nothing.sh/event/event.cgi and http://www.bmsoffighters.net/ for japanese events and https://k-bms.com/ for korean ones.
You cannot find any other alternative concerning source names unless you mention the event of the mapped song, and it could be more misleading, for example if you want to map a song like Sakuzyo feat. Nikki Simmons - Destr0yer which has currently "BMS" as source, you must use "G2R2018" as source instead, but using "BMS of fighters 2018" or "BOF2018" as source is also possible, there's no "common" source.
There is also a rule in RC which tells to use the original source for an arranged song, it happened to me once when i tried to rank this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/905158 because the original song comes from a BMS event, but the song itself definitely has no source.
i agree with what agu said : "BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted". when you cannot find a viable alternative for each case, using an universal one for everything is, imo, the best.
You cannot find any other alternative concerning source names unless you mention the event of the mapped song, and it could be more misleading, for example if you want to map a song like Sakuzyo feat. Nikki Simmons - Destr0yer which has currently "BMS" as source, you must use "G2R2018" as source instead, but using "BMS of fighters 2018" or "BOF2018" as source is also possible, there's no "common" source.
There is also a rule in RC which tells to use the original source for an arranged song, it happened to me once when i tried to rank this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/905158 because the original song comes from a BMS event, but the song itself definitely has no source.
i agree with what agu said : "BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted". when you cannot find a viable alternative for each case, using an universal one for everything is, imo, the best.
Topic Starter
Cherry Blossom wrote:
You cannot find any other alternative concerning source names unless you mention the event of the mapped song, and it could be more misleading, for example if you want to map a song like Sakuzyo feat. Nikki Simmons - Destr0yer which has currently "BMS" as source, you must use "G2R2018" as source instead, but using "BMS of fighters 2018" or "BOF2018" as source is also possible, there's no "common" source.
There will always be an "official full event name" for every BMS event. For example, the full name of "G2R2018" is "G2R2018 Climax -GO BACK 2 YOUR ROOTS 2018 climax-". It's pretty long but still "common", trackable, and clear.
even PABAT! series have their official event name, so using event names won't be a problem on making things clear.
Cherry Blossom wrote:
i agree with what agu said : "BMS as a source looks clean and is already almost universally accepted". when you cannot find a viable alternative for each case, using an universal one for everything is, imo, the best.
The reason behind BMS being universally accepted is that people didn't try to fix it and to use other clearer ones. Though "BMS" is quite simple, comparing to all the other Sources BMS is much vaguer and more unclear. That's why this proposal is made.
Cherry Blossom wrote:
There is also a rule in RC which tells to use the original source for an arranged song, it happened to me once when i tried to rank this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/905158 because the original song comes from a BMS event, but the song itself definitely has no source.
Things written in this proposal should still be applied in that case, but that's because of the RC rule you mentioned. But same to the Touhou series, remixed/arranged songs sometimes are not even related to the "original source."
IMO this is actually another topic, which is about how to correctly write Sources of remixed/arranged songs.
ok, almost everything you stated is fine.
I have also some concern, as some people stated, BMS isn't really an "official game" such as beatmania IIDX, there are just event with charts for LR2, but putting LR2 as source would be wrong. Putting event names (assume there are official names and not ambiguous ones) may be also wrong because it's not a game but a list of different charts made by artists, with some ranking stuff, teams etc. It looks more like a contest than a game actually.
Using "BMS" as source may have been a mistake since the beginning,
I have also some concern, as some people stated, BMS isn't really an "official game" such as beatmania IIDX, there are just event with charts for LR2, but putting LR2 as source would be wrong. Putting event names (assume there are official names and not ambiguous ones) may be also wrong because it's not a game but a list of different charts made by artists, with some ranking stuff, teams etc. It looks more like a contest than a game actually.
Using "BMS" as source may have been a mistake since the beginning,
change the BMS to ...
Source: event where the song is presented
Tags: BMS
meh...
Source: event where the song is presented
Tags: BMS
meh...
I don't think event names belong in the source, I think "source" is meant to reference other media that the music belongs to. contests should be tagged
but yeah BMS shouldn't be the source regardless. the only argument I can see against this is that it's become a recognizable category for songs over the years
but yeah BMS shouldn't be the source regardless. the only argument I can see against this is that it's become a recognizable category for songs over the years
seems the consensus here is that BMS shouldn't be used as a source, seems reasonable. events in source don't seem appropriate, so i'd just leave source blank in these situations
what im wondering is how this would be written in the ranking criteria though. saying "don't use bms as source" seems wrong when we don't have phrases like "don't use [YouTube/vimeo/niconico etc] as source" either
if anything, this seems more like something to just... make BNs and mappers aware of? if BMS doesnt make sense as a source, maps using it should be reported and dealt with in the modding/qualification processes
if it helps, an announcement can be made to all BNs so they're aware of it. before that though, is there anyone who wants to keep BMS as a possible source? and why?
what im wondering is how this would be written in the ranking criteria though. saying "don't use bms as source" seems wrong when we don't have phrases like "don't use [YouTube/vimeo/niconico etc] as source" either
if anything, this seems more like something to just... make BNs and mappers aware of? if BMS doesnt make sense as a source, maps using it should be reported and dealt with in the modding/qualification processes
if it helps, an announcement can be made to all BNs so they're aware of it. before that though, is there anyone who wants to keep BMS as a possible source? and why?
pishifat wrote:
what im wondering is how this would be written in the ranking criteria though. saying "don't use bms as source" seems wrong when we don't have phrases like "don't use [YouTube/vimeo/niconico etc] as source" either
that is mentioned in the source rule though ->
rc wrote:
Website or album names are not an acceptable source.
add it there? maybe
Website names, album names, or BMS are not acceptable sources.
does this work as a reword for that sentence then?
does this work as a reword for that sentence then?
Topic Starter
the reword looks okay. it should be clear enough for people to understand, imo.
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2453 will be pending for a few days for last minute input
Original propsal is about BMS, but just having "Website names, album names, or BMS" sounds weird. Can't BMS be generalised to something else and have it made as example?
i think generalizing as "file types" wouldn't get across that BMS is disallowed as clearly. not sure why it needs to be generalized when it's the only one of its kind relevant to this rule as well
also merged
also merged
how about wording it as "Website names, album names, or events (such as BMS)"?