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[Rule] Timing

posted
Total Posts
45
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those
The current rule is:

Your map must be perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
How can we amend this rule so as to say bpm must be correct even for unmapped sections (sections without objects)? The osu! that pulses at the bottom right hand corner is my biggest reason for this change.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
"Your map must be perfectly timed for the duration of the entire song."

Unmapped sections only need to be "adequately timed", but that gets the idea across.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Your map must -> The draining time of your map must
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Your map must -> The draining time of your map must
He means the opposite, he wants to cover unmapped sections with the rule.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
A simple "Even unmapped sections." addtion would suffice here, and I don't see why not. It hasn't happened often, but I've seen a few seconds of a song's intro be off on the menu.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Then:

If not for mapping, you DON'T need a Perfect timing, since:

1) The non-mapped section is "usually" not mapped for that reason. The timing is difficult to find.
2) The pulse on the main menu, other than being a pulse which arelady can throw your mind off by a few ms, it's just a "visual" effect, an "approximate" timing is just ok, as you WON'T be completely synching what you see with what you hear perfectly.
3) Most people limit frame on the main menu, to 60 or 120, which means that "visually" there are 120 frame per seconds( or even 60 ! ) and that means that the visual precision of your eyes is limited.
4) Of course, there no visual difference between, let's say, 400 and 800 fps.

Being picky for the pulse on the main menu is just a bad idea since you wouldn't improve visual "that" much and people always do that when they cannot find the right timing for that part.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

you wouldn't improve visual "that" much
This strengthens my argument, since even you know it will be an improvement.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

those wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

you wouldn't improve visual "that" much
This strengthens my argument, since even you know it will be an improvement.
An improvement probably "slightly" seeable for him
SPOILER

for who don't know his "power" is having ultrafast-reaction times, and this perfect timing is about 10 ms, which is inhuman.

Ps. the that with " was NOT because there is a slight improvement that is seeable. But because it's not seeable. neither at 25% vel
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE
You guys don't realize that "perfect timing" should be defined first, but it can't be defined because noone knows the "perfect timing" of a song except the composer (and only in a very little bunch of cases people are able to find that information).
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
neither composer, because conversion change their timing a bit (example, conversion to mp3. add a random offset at the beginning)
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
I feel that this rule's intention is to make mappers go for much more trouble for such little gain, and that is not very nice.

Anyways, for what is worth, most timers would just go for a +/-10 ms accuracy rate, and that pretty much means that their timing is not even perfect, so most maps doesn't even follow that rule that strictly currently.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those
My intention is solely for that gain, and not to make people go through extra effort. We can try to be just satisfactory, or we can strive for improvement. Which would you rather?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
There's no need for a perfect offset on the unmapped sections,if anything an average BPM, since all that we want is the osu! cookie to pulse right isnt it? and a bunch of red lines would just make it go crazy.
Card N'FoRcE
osu! Alumni
4,058 posts
Here since the beginning
Card N'FoRcE

Sakura wrote:

There's no need for a perfect offset on the unmapped sections,if anything an average BPM, since all that we want is the osu! cookie to pulse right isnt it?
This answers perfectly.
The intention to have unmapped sections timed is ok, but if having to spend hours to achieve that it's just plain stupid. If the timing is simple then add it, if not add an average.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those

Card N'FoRcE wrote:

The intention to have unmapped sections timed is ok,..
If the timing is simple then add it, if not add an average.
Great solution.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
So now the next question is, how do we ammend it to cover that.
Ekaru
3,617 posts
Joined July 2008
Ekaru
"Your map must be perfectly timed and unmapped portions of the song must be adequately timed."

Or you could just go, "The entire song (even unmapped portions) must be perfectly timed".

Both amendments would have a part saying that the reason to time unmapped portions of the song is for Taiko bars and the main menu, of course, in which case it'd be implied that it wouldn't have to be bloody perfect, though you might have to state that too if some super nazis start being super duper nazis.

However, the easiest way would be to split it up into two smaller rules. "Your map must be perfectly timed" and "Unmapped portions of your song must be adequately timed". One's done for gameplay and the other is for musical correctness, so they have different standards and could justify being split up with their own justifications.
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
So that includes the intros that most of the time has "senseless" timing?
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
what about adding "If the unmapped sections of the song have an awkward timing you may use an average BPM"
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
Topic Starter
those

ErufenRito wrote:

So that includes the intros that most of the time has "senseless" timing?
Not too sure what kind of songs you're listening to that most have intros like that, but if you need help I can help you time it.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Rule
The draining time of your map must be *perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
*perfectly means "the most accurate it can get"

+
Guideline
The non-mapped parts of your maps should have an adequate timing, especially when that part timing is easy to find. When finding a right timing is too hard, just try to get an average timing and see if the menu osu! logo is pulsing rightly.


just the idea of using a Rule and a Guideline. Since the rule have to be imposed and the guideline isn't so imposable,
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
Honestly if the song is dead silence for a few seconds I wouldn't mind if the BPM of the next part (the first part with a beat) is placed in there instead.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
something to stop the pulse directly will be better
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
timing unmapped sections, especially slow downs at the end of a song or a bridge or whatever, is a colossal waste of time.

such a rule would exist just to piss people off
Nyquill
osu! Alumni
1,781 posts
Joined February 2011
Nyquill

Lybydose wrote:

timing unmapped sections, especially slow downs at the end of a song or a bridge or whatever, is a colossal waste of time.

such a rule would exist just to piss people off
What I'm most concerned with is what about sections that don't really have a timing? Some songs have breaks in them that don't really follow a certain BPM.

Otherwise, I don't have an issue with this amendment.
Ephemeral
Inland Empire
3,945 posts
Joined April 2009
Ephemeral

Nyquill wrote:

Lybydose wrote:

timing unmapped sections, especially slow downs at the end of a song or a bridge or whatever, is a colossal waste of time.

such a rule would exist just to piss people off
What I'm most concerned with is what about sections that don't really have a timing? Some songs have breaks in them that don't really follow a certain BPM.

Otherwise, I don't have an issue with this amendment.
break across untimable duration and retime once the song can be timed again?
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Nyquill wrote:

Lybydose wrote:

timing unmapped sections, especially slow downs at the end of a song or a bridge or whatever, is a colossal waste of time.

such a rule would exist just to piss people off
What I'm most concerned with is what about sections that don't really have a timing? Some songs have breaks in them that don't really follow a certain BPM.

Otherwise, I don't have an issue with this amendment.
Called rubato musically. Another case is when the change in speed goes continuously not on every beat then it's useless to time it correct for the sake of the cookies in the title screen.

In almost all cases the breaks are either having a constant BPM as usual, or having timing that is impossible to measure, and both cases don't need extra timing.

such a rule would exist just to piss people off
LKs
3,119 posts
Joined August 2009
LKs
not a bad proposal. But time like the intro of the map http://osu.ppy.sh/s/50766 is an example of time wasting
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
Your map must be perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
I don't see anything here that says about breaks or unmapped parts. I guess if a person chooses to time it, why not, but I don't think it needs forcing as it has no impact on gameplay.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
As everyone here has forgotten apparently, the reason this rule is being suggested is so that even on the unmapped parts the osu! cookie has the correct pulsing, although i dont think this is a strong reason to bring forth this as a rule i just thought i'd remind you guys in case you had forgotten.
Lybydose
osu! Alumni
2,024 posts
Joined January 2009
Lybydose
a pulsing logo that has zero effect on gameplay is not a reason to waste large amounts of time on something that's probably not even correct to begin with
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Lybydose wrote:

a pulsing logo that has zero effect on gameplay is not a reason to waste large amounts of time on something that's probably not even correct to begin with
Don't waste large amounts of time it then. Take an average or drop a uninherited on each downbeat. And it does have an effect on taiko.
Frostmourne
osu! Alumni
3,733 posts
Joined November 2009
Frostmourne
I'd agree if it's just a guideline.

But if I see some map be unranked just because it doesn't have perfect timing.
I think it might be stupid rule ever.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Rule
The draining time of your map must be *perfectly timed. This means that your BPM and offset are spot-on, sliders end when they should, notes are generally following a recognizable rhythm (such as the lyrics or drums) which is comprehensible by a player, and that there are no unsnapped notes (you can check this by running AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) in the editor).
*perfectly means "the most accurate it can get"

+
Guideline
The non-mapped parts of your maps should have an adequate timing, especially when that part timing is easy to find. When finding a right timing is too hard, just try to get an average timing and see if the menu osu! logo is pulsing rightly.


just the idea of using a Rule and a Guideline. Since the rule have to be imposed and the guideline isn't so imposable,
maybe even better as a Recommendation
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
I'm still against it. It's much better to add an option like "Non-timed section" to the uninherited timing sections so the osu! cookie won't pulse or something like that.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
or maybe pulse every peak?
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes
I don't want to be mean or anything, but why are we wasting time on something that makes absolutely no difference? Lybydose is right, this doesn't affect gameplay at all and is a waste of time. If a person wants to do it, sure, if not, that's ok too.

I really see no problem here.

ziin wrote:

Don't waste large amounts of time it then. Take an average or drop a uninherited on each downbeat. And it does have an effect on taiko.
It doesn't. The only way it would affect it is if you had a break where a BPM/downbeat/offset change would occur. Putting a red line where appropriate (during a break) was always done already, I think. edit: Unless it was impossible because the music was incomprehensible, or something.
Also it only affects the visual of the taiko where the break occurs, and when notes come everything goes back to normal anyway.
Timing before or after the map just to see your cookie pulsing correctly, now that's what I think this was all about, and is a waste of time.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Guess so far this is going into a no change, need further feedback tho.
Mithos
636 posts
Joined February 2011
Mithos
I'm going to argue that it throws taiko players off if the intro has badly timed bar lines. You expect some crazy (or sluggish) Approach Rate but then it finally equalizes as soon as the first note comes up.
Drafura
osu! Alumni
2,621 posts
Joined April 2010
Drafura
I know it's a bit late but what about nightcore mod ? We can hear the offsync during breaks. Okay this isn't affecting gameplay but this is really ugly.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Mithost wrote:

I'm going to argue that it throws taiko players off if the intro has badly timed bar lines. You expect some crazy (or sluggish) Approach Rate but then it finally equalizes as soon as the first note comes up.
In that case just start the timing point early? Since the intro will be wrong anyway, might as well.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Why is this even bubbled? There's like no support for this by people who matter.

I know it's going to happen eventually, but really, the OP doesn't even have an updated version of what this rule will look like.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
did you bother reading my post? the bubble is when everyone's reaching a concensus, in this case said consensus is "No change"
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,431 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
Sorry. I was not in the best of moods after I saw the Vocaloid rule that was amended. So if this is no change, why isn't it denied yet.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
You're right.
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