Hello, since i've been giving people my maps and getting progesively dissapointed/sad because everytime i finish a map and it plays really good (imo) other people say its..far from good. Most people i hear is map's structure? What the hell is that. And isn't sliderend following to the next object is flow/structure? And why other expert mappers say that sliderend showing the way to the next object isn't a good thing? I'm literally lost on how to make a f. Decent map in 2019.
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Map's structure?
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I checked out this map of yours. I think a good place to start when talking about structure is consistency with sliders. Generally, it looks very clean when straight sliders are consistently tilted the same amount from the x or y axis for each musical section. Curved sliders of the same length or representing the same sounds should be curved similarly. Using similar slidershapes to match similar sounds also helps a lot with structure, as your slider shape choice feels a bit... random to me at times. Pishifat has a good video on this topic.
And to address sliderends following to the next object: That is flow indeed, but not structure. Old maps (most notably from the 2010 - 2013 era) have used this kind of flow well. I'm guessing you like to place objects where it seems most comfortable for it to land - while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it helps to take into account the placement of the object relative to other nearby objects, keeping a consistent visual spacing between them even if they're not immediately after each other.
TLDR;
-Be consistent in the sounds certain slidershapes represent
-Be consistent in straight slider tilt and curved slider curvatures
-Be consistent in visual spacing
-Be consistent in rhythm choice
-Look at good maps and try to figure out what sets it apart from your maps
And to address sliderends following to the next object: That is flow indeed, but not structure. Old maps (most notably from the 2010 - 2013 era) have used this kind of flow well. I'm guessing you like to place objects where it seems most comfortable for it to land - while that's not necessarily a bad thing, it helps to take into account the placement of the object relative to other nearby objects, keeping a consistent visual spacing between them even if they're not immediately after each other.
TLDR;
-Be consistent in the sounds certain slidershapes represent
-Be consistent in straight slider tilt and curved slider curvatures
-Be consistent in visual spacing
-Be consistent in rhythm choice
-Look at good maps and try to figure out what sets it apart from your maps
Topic Starter
Hey, thanks for replying. I have a few more questions(sorry lol) So overmapping circle shaped sliders are bad? Since i'm gathering information on mapping someone said tilting every slider by 5 degrees helps to improve the map. I used to use linear sliders, but some modders pointed out that the map was boring and not fun to play.
Also how do i know how much to tilt sliders(more important question is how, cuz im doing everything manually with no commands except copying) Im guessing x;y coordinates are in the top i need to keep an eye out?
Also from handsomes tweet visual spacing means beautiful equally spaced sliders? Sorry i'm really bad at getting mapping stuff..
Next thing i wanna ask is jumps. You can see i had/(still have) 0 creativity on designing jumps. I gotta use squares, triangles other geometric figures to make the map atleast not fully linear. Do jumps have to be spaced? I was looking at atama no taisou Nogard/0108 diffs.(Cuz i frankly love djpop/val0108 maps) And saw in atamas map that the jump spacing are not equal. Can i make 1 jump far away and the other 2 real close to make the map harder?
Because after every map i send to modding queues and those who gets reviewed im left with more questions than improvements doubting "Can i really become a good mapper at this state?"
Reviewing my map. Well i used circle sliders cuz again. I have no creativity designing those pretty well made other slider shapes.. Also when i was mapping this map I got really satisfied with what i've done. The flow was perfect imo. Since i was mapping vocals using circle shaped sliders was the best idea i could think of while mapping. And placing objects at previous placed objects for an even better flow.
Also how do i know how much to tilt sliders(more important question is how, cuz im doing everything manually with no commands except copying) Im guessing x;y coordinates are in the top i need to keep an eye out?
Also from handsomes tweet visual spacing means beautiful equally spaced sliders? Sorry i'm really bad at getting mapping stuff..
Next thing i wanna ask is jumps. You can see i had/(still have) 0 creativity on designing jumps. I gotta use squares, triangles other geometric figures to make the map atleast not fully linear. Do jumps have to be spaced? I was looking at atama no taisou Nogard/0108 diffs.(Cuz i frankly love djpop/val0108 maps) And saw in atamas map that the jump spacing are not equal. Can i make 1 jump far away and the other 2 real close to make the map harder?
Because after every map i send to modding queues and those who gets reviewed im left with more questions than improvements doubting "Can i really become a good mapper at this state?"
Reviewing my map. Well i used circle sliders cuz again. I have no creativity designing those pretty well made other slider shapes.. Also when i was mapping this map I got really satisfied with what i've done. The flow was perfect imo. Since i was mapping vocals using circle shaped sliders was the best idea i could think of while mapping. And placing objects at previous placed objects for an even better flow.
You can make your first tilted linear slider by hand, then copy/paste it applying different transformations to get other linear sliders you need.
CTRL-, rotates counter-clockwise by 90 degrees
CTRL-. rotates clockwise by 90 degrees
CTRL-SHIFT-R lets you choose how much to rotate the object
CTRL-H flips the slider horizontally
CTRL-J flips the slider vertically
CTRL-SHIFT-S (with selection centre as origin) makes the slider longer while keeping the head at the same position
CTRL-G reverses the slider (slider head becomes tail and vice versa)
CTRL-, rotates counter-clockwise by 90 degrees
CTRL-. rotates clockwise by 90 degrees
CTRL-SHIFT-R lets you choose how much to rotate the object
CTRL-H flips the slider horizontally
CTRL-J flips the slider vertically
CTRL-SHIFT-S (with selection centre as origin) makes the slider longer while keeping the head at the same position
CTRL-G reverses the slider (slider head becomes tail and vice versa)
I'll use the same map that thewhitewhale linked for reference.
When I think of structure I think of clean, interesting, and executable patterns.
'Clean' means the pattern looks neat and consistent. This can usually be easily achieved with some copy/paste/rotate.
'Interesting' is relative to the difficulty of the map. Below Insane you are expected to follow flow and time-distance equality but Insane/Expert allows for more creative freedom.
'Executable' is also relative to the difficulty of the map. If you are mapping an Insane I would not expect fast or frequent fullscreen jumps while it might be fair game at Expert and above.
Take 00:28:706 - 00:51:120 for example. I can see the attempt to spice things up with patterns like 00:33:534 (2,3,4,5,6,7) and 00:36:465 (3,4,5). However a lot of your slider usage, I would consider to be 'bland' for a 5.5* map. Just off the top of my head you could possibly map 00:42:844 (1,2,3,4) like this instead: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/13484025/7030
Remember that slider tails are a lot more lenient as the slider ball gives some room for error, so you are able to map a bit more freely following a slider tail than if it was a hitcircle.
Instead of tilting sliders by hand, I prefer to draw a fully horizontal/vertical slider and then rotate it in multiples of 15 degrees. Consistent tilting within each pattern will make one pattern stand out from another.
More or less. When you have a bunch of objects that are placed close to each other on the screen, have a consistent, visible 'gap' between them. It doesn't affect difficulty much as it's just a matter of fine adjustments, but it greatly improves the aesthetic 'look and feel' of the map.
You could try a pentagon then swap some of the circles around to make a star pattern. That's the only idea I have that comes to mind right now.
Depends on the diff you are mapping. At Insane and above, there is less of a need to have consistent distance snapping as the player is expected to be able to 'snap' to the next note rather than relying on the time-distance equality rule. If you make a jump at 2.20x distance, then a following jump anywhere between 2.00-2.40x may still be considered 'the same distance'. Some mappers even disregard distance snapping entirely when doing jumps.
More importantly, it also depends on the music. Jumps and antijumps each create a different type of contrast, so make sure the musical context fits whatever you're mapping.
For example 01:24:741 (1,2,3,4) - You can have smaller spacing here to lead into the spacing in the next section: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/13483973/d869 That will make the map 'feel' more interesting to play.
It can be daunting for a new mapper to come up with good patterns perpetually through the whole song. The ability to intuitively design clean, interesting, and executable patterns comes with experience. Build your 'vocabulary' by looking at some highly rated ranked maps and ask yourself "What makes this map good enough to be rankable?"
For structure I highly recommend looking at Wahrheit. When it was first ranked it was the top rated map for weeks.
When I think of structure I think of clean, interesting, and executable patterns.
'Clean' means the pattern looks neat and consistent. This can usually be easily achieved with some copy/paste/rotate.
'Interesting' is relative to the difficulty of the map. Below Insane you are expected to follow flow and time-distance equality but Insane/Expert allows for more creative freedom.
'Executable' is also relative to the difficulty of the map. If you are mapping an Insane I would not expect fast or frequent fullscreen jumps while it might be fair game at Expert and above.
Take 00:28:706 - 00:51:120 for example. I can see the attempt to spice things up with patterns like 00:33:534 (2,3,4,5,6,7) and 00:36:465 (3,4,5). However a lot of your slider usage, I would consider to be 'bland' for a 5.5* map. Just off the top of my head you could possibly map 00:42:844 (1,2,3,4) like this instead: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/13484025/7030
Remember that slider tails are a lot more lenient as the slider ball gives some room for error, so you are able to map a bit more freely following a slider tail than if it was a hitcircle.
Also how do i know how much to tilt sliders(more important question is how, cuz im doing everything manually with no commands except copying) Im guessing x;y coordinates are in the top i need to keep an eye out?
Instead of tilting sliders by hand, I prefer to draw a fully horizontal/vertical slider and then rotate it in multiples of 15 degrees. Consistent tilting within each pattern will make one pattern stand out from another.
Also from handsomes tweet visual spacing means beautiful equally spaced sliders? Sorry i'm really bad at getting mapping stuff..
More or less. When you have a bunch of objects that are placed close to each other on the screen, have a consistent, visible 'gap' between them. It doesn't affect difficulty much as it's just a matter of fine adjustments, but it greatly improves the aesthetic 'look and feel' of the map.
Next thing i wanna ask is jumps. You can see i had/(still have) 0 creativity on designing jumps. I gotta use squares, triangles other geometric figures to make the map atleast not fully linear.
You could try a pentagon then swap some of the circles around to make a star pattern. That's the only idea I have that comes to mind right now.
Do jumps have to be spaced? I was looking at atama no taisou Nogard/0108 diffs.(Cuz i frankly love djpop/val0108 maps) And saw in atamas map that the jump spacing are not equal. Can i make 1 jump far away and the other 2 real close to make the map harder?
Depends on the diff you are mapping. At Insane and above, there is less of a need to have consistent distance snapping as the player is expected to be able to 'snap' to the next note rather than relying on the time-distance equality rule. If you make a jump at 2.20x distance, then a following jump anywhere between 2.00-2.40x may still be considered 'the same distance'. Some mappers even disregard distance snapping entirely when doing jumps.
More importantly, it also depends on the music. Jumps and antijumps each create a different type of contrast, so make sure the musical context fits whatever you're mapping.
For example 01:24:741 (1,2,3,4) - You can have smaller spacing here to lead into the spacing in the next section: https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/13483973/d869 That will make the map 'feel' more interesting to play.
It can be daunting for a new mapper to come up with good patterns perpetually through the whole song. The ability to intuitively design clean, interesting, and executable patterns comes with experience. Build your 'vocabulary' by looking at some highly rated ranked maps and ask yourself "What makes this map good enough to be rankable?"
For structure I highly recommend looking at Wahrheit. When it was first ranked it was the top rated map for weeks.
As has been mentioned on this thread, a lot of these concepts if not all can be easily understood by watching pishifat’s mapping videos. I personally think they are presented really interestingly and even tho I am a bad mapper because I just started I feel like they really gave me some foundations to build off of so that my maps are at least slightly more structured than many new mappers. I think they can provide help with your query about ‘structure’
(I cant provide link bc my connection is dying
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(I cant provide link bc my connection is dying
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