I couldnt think of a title for this so here you go

General

I propose getting rid of the following guideline from general and move it to kantan, futsuu and muzukashii guidelines:



Reasoning being, that we're fine with 1/4 finishers and whatever but not with spinners? The rationale for this is exactly the thing that we deemed to be ok for big notes so i dont think this guideline existing makes a lot of sense

Difficulty specific

Kantan


Increase the 1/1 pattern guideline to 9 notes (previously 7)
-> on a 4/4 song, that's two measures which should work better than the seven wich almost never fits anything musically
Futsuu
lol this diff already does what i suggest to do on muzu and kantan? lol

Muzukashii
Since the difficulty is on the edge i propose having the follwoing as a workaround for rest moment be mentioned / allowed:

should be on muzu and below maybe? for the spinner gap thing. cuz i can see it being disorienting for a noob playing k and f.

Spinner distance rule removal
Remove this rule from higher difficulty would make sense. But this rule should exist for the lower difficulty as Nao have said. 1/4 distance between a spinner and its preceding note is potentially disturbed the readability for the audience. As Muzukashii difficulty or below, 1/4 finisher pattern is prohibited technically. Therefore, the spinner should too.

TL;DR - This rule should still exist in Muzukashii difficulty and below at least.

Difficulty specific - Kantan
Disagree. 1/1 9 notes pattern is a potentially long pattern (for usual Kantan difficulty) and causes a lot of strain to the player at this level. I found 7 notes is reasonable as this will suggest the mapper focus on 3 notes or 5 notes pattern which this kind of pattern doesn't cause a lot of strain to the player at this level (from personal observation)

Difficulty specific - Muzukashii
Fine for me, but perhaps rewording into the way that suggests them to use 3/2 first would be nice. Like,

• You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute if the rhythm of the music doesn't allow to use 3/2 rest moment. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.[/b]

ok fair, will reword my initial post a bit re: spinner to note distance

@the music doesnt allow 3/2 rest moments -> if it allows both you'd be forced to use one over the other even if 3/2 is suboptimal which is meh

btw the same reasoning can be applied to any rest moment guidelines i.e. futsuu with 2/1 -> 3/2, kantan with 3/1 and 2/1

should i include that ?

ah damn i forgot i had this thread

updated op

funnily, by now Futsuu basically does what i suggest already (You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 2/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player.) so can we have that for kantanananan and muzukuashii as well

To be fair, What oko suggested to be inserted to Kantan and Muzukashii is not entirely the same as what is in the Futsuu guidelines right now. Futsuu Guidelines dont explicitly mention 3/2 or anything being a substitute for rest moments. I would rather word the Kantan and Muzukashii break guidelines to also have the following bit of text after the main statement:

"Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player."

Beyond that, i fully agree with removing the 1/4 Spinner guideline from Oni and Inner Oni, and only keeping it in Kantan, Futsuu and Muzu. As he said, Finishers at the end of 1/4 patterns are allowed, yet spinners at the end of 1/4 patterns are discouraged, despite the overlap being virtually the same.

Tyistiana wrote:

Spinner distance rule removal

• There should be at least 1/2 distance between a spinner and its preceding note. This is to ensure they do not overlap substantially and assure readability.

Remove this rule from higher difficulty would make sense. But this rule should exist for the lower difficulty as Nao have said. 1/4 distance between a spinner and its preceding note is potentially disturbed the readability for the audience. As Muzukashii difficulty or below, 1/4 finisher pattern is prohibited technically. Therefore, the spinner should too.

TL;DR - This rule should still exist in Muzukashii difficulty and below at least.

Difficulty specific - Kantan

1/1 patterns should not be longer than seven notes. -> 1/1 patterns should not be longer than nine notes

Disagree. 1/1 9 notes pattern is a potentially long pattern (for usual Kantan difficulty) and causes a lot of strain to the player at this level. I found 7 notes is reasonable as this will suggest the mapper focus on 3 notes or 5 notes pattern which this kind of pattern doesn't cause a lot of strain to the player at this level (from personal observation)

Difficulty specific - Muzukashii

• You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute as well. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.

Fine for me, but perhaps rewording into the way that suggests them to use 3/2 first would be nice. Like,

• You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute if the rhythm of the music doesn't allow to use 3/2 rest moment. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.[/b]

I completely agree with tyistiana

Okoratu wrote:

... Two (or more) consecutive 2/1 rhythms can be used as a substitute as well. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners. ... Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute as well. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.

Such suggestions for substituting the initially recommended break moments look artificial. As an analogy, one may argue why the 2 2/1 rhythm or 1/1 rhythm works while shorter variations such as 3 3/2 or 3/4 rhythm doesn't. Ultimately it only provides another plan for placing breaks but not reasoning the new substitutes in this proposal nor explaining why some breaks are acceptable. It would be nice if they are reworded such that there is a mechanism for how you can put breaks. For example in Muzukashii, 1 rest moment of 3/2 as the minimum threshold for resting players between two dense mapping parts; 2 "small" rest moments of 1/1 within 1/1, and so on for other smaller rest moments, so that it is less confusing and more rational.

-------

Tyistiana's counter-suggestion wrote:

You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute if the rhythm of the music doesn't allow to use 3/2 rest moment. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.

It is okay to consider whether the music is against the guideline like they don't fit together, but I suspect there will be abuse if such wordings are written into the guideline. Therefore I suggest concluding for the break moment mechanisms as said above instead.

-------

The rest is fair for me for now.

Okoratu wrote:

General

I propose getting rid of the following guideline from general and move it to kantan, futsuu and muzukashii guidelines:

1. There should be at least 1/2 distance between a spinner and its preceding note. This is to ensure they do not overlap substantially and assure readability.

Reasoning being, that we're fine with 1/4 finishers and whatever but not with spinners? The rationale for this is exactly the thing that we deemed to be ok for big notes so i dont think this guideline existing makes a lot of sense

It is true that using finish at the end of 1/4 patterns in Oni and Inner Oni is generally acceptable, so I agree this general guideline regarding spinner-note distance could be put in Kantan, Futsuu and Muzukashii difficulty-specific. However, your reasoning implies that we still need the guideline in Oni and probably Inner Oni as well, with a parameter change to assure coverage:

Okoratu wrote:

Difficulty specific

Kantan

1. You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 2/1 rhythms can be used as a substitute as well. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.

I honestly do not think two consecutive 2/1 could compensate a 3/1 break given the fact that Kantan features 1/1 + 2/1 patterns. At this level, 2/1 notes are regarded as connecting units and not even remotely sufficient as breaks for beginners to rest. The current guideline works perfectly in my opinion.

Okoratu wrote:

Increase the 1/1 pattern guideline to 9 notes (previously 7)
-> on a 4/4 song, that's two measures which should work better than the seven wich almost never fits anything musically

As Tyistiana mentioned, nine 1/1 notes in Kantan are just too long and do not work well with the Futsuu guidelines in terms of spread balance. Seven was the compromise in the previous revision and would still be a reasonable upper limit to avoid excessively complex patterning in this elementary difficulty.

Okoratu wrote:

Muzukashii
Since the difficulty is on the edge i propose having the follwoing as a workaround for rest moment be mentioned / allowed:

1. You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Two (or more) consecutive 1/1 rest moments can be used as a substitute as well. Less frequent rest moments or shorter ones may put too much strain on beginners.

Different from the case in Kantan, Muzukashii features simple 1/4 with 1/2 as connecting unit. Therefore, two or more consecutive 1/1 may be regarded as a possible compromise in case the music does not favour a 3/2 break.

Is the guideline you propose an answer to that? I dont really understand what you mean with that block



if so i dont think that should be on guidelines at all, cause i dont think that impacts readability much

-----

I do think consecutive 2/1 is better than forcing 4/1 of break, and doing so in most cases shouldnt be very straining fulfilling the requirement you were fine with in muzu diffs

-----

I honestly dont care about the 9 note thing as long as we don't have to sacrifice following the song in any form or fashion in order to make a kantan for your point on 9x 1/1 objects on kantan

regarding the break guidelines: both of you have a point, but i would honestly not fix it to any set values. in some circumstances (assuming 180 bpm), two 2/1 can be sufficient, and in other circumstances, they can be insufficient.
Example of two 2/1 being obviously unfit to provide a substitute for a break: https://puu.sh/EoR3i/86e311bc8d.png (This is still within Kantan guidelines except with the break part)

Please note you could keep this crazy high intensity up for the entirety of the map if you want, without breaking the proposed guideline. This is clearly over the top for kantan diffs.

Example of two 2/1 being obviously fit to provide a break substitute: https://puu.sh/EoR6G/dba96e078e.png (Part is overall more forgiving, but you wouldnt want this kinda continuous rhythm to be enabled across the entire difficulty regardless of the 2/1 serving as breaks)

Additionally, enabling kantans to be ranked with way harder difficulty elements could disrupt the general spread situation with Futsuu.

Overall: I would just take over the wording from the current futsuu guideline verbatim. This will avoid this exact problem by not giving specific values for a break substitute, but rather applying leniency depending on how un-dense the part is.

Kantan guideline could look like:

"You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/1 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player."

And the Muzu guideline could look like:

"You should insert at least 1 rest moment that is 3/2 or longer after 16/1 to 20/1 of continuous mapping. Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player."

This would perfectly cover if a song just doesnt want 3/2 or 3/1 due to their pacing, which i believe is the goal of this proposal...?

Leaving it more vague is ok if we're fine with people interpreting it more

which i think is nice

Okoratu wrote:

Is the guideline you propose an answer to that? I dont really understand what you mean with that block

There should be at least 1/4 distance between a spinner and its preceding note. This is to ensure they do not overlap substantially and assure readability.

if so i dont think that should be on guidelines at all, cause i dont think that impacts readability much

That block is a proposed difficulty-specific guideline for Oni and Inner Oni if the general guideline in question is put in Kantan, Futsuu and Muzukashii difficulty-specific.

Okoratu wrote:

I do think consecutive 2/1 is better than forcing 4/1 of break, and doing so in most cases shouldnt be very straining fulfilling the requirement you were fine with in muzu diffs

As mentioned in my previous response, two consecutive 2/1 could not compensate a 3/1 break owing to the fact that Kantan is the difficulty introducing 1/1 patterns to beginners. Rest moments in this difficulty should be at least 3/1 to call them effective so the current rest moment guideline in Kantan should stay. 3/1 breaks could also be applied easily without force, inducing less strain compared to 2/1 connections.

Okoratu wrote:

I honestly dont care about the 9 note thing as long as we don't have to sacrifice following the song in any form or fashion in order to make a kantan for your point on 9x 1/1 objects on kantan

Yes, just keep the limit as 7 notes as it is for 1/1 usage in Kantan as explained before. Nothing is sacrificed as 7 is a versatile length for this level of difficulty, taking spread balance into consideration.

Well, I would agree with enforcing a 1/2 distance for note - spinner in Kantan, Futsuu and Muzu, and a 1/4 distance for Oni and Inner Oni.

Keeping the 7-note Limit for Kantan also seems fair enough since any farther and we start diving into futsuu-ish territory imo.

Since okoratu is fine with copying the wording from the Futsuu break guideline with:

"Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player."

Over to Muzukashii and Kantan, id like to hear what nardo thinks about this, i think then we should have a consensus.

Nepuri wrote:

Since okoratu is fine with copying the wording from the Futsuu break guideline with:

"Using rest moments less frequently is acceptable if either the pace of the music makes rest moments counter-intuitive or if the continuously mapped part is overall more forgiving to the player."

Over to Muzukashii and Kantan

It would be fine to borrow this sentence to the break guideline in Kantan and Muzukashii as long as the parameter of effective rest moment in respective difficulty remains constant.

Here is a summary of the proposed amendments that reached consensus upon discussion:

1. Removal of a general guideline regarding spinner-note distance

General

2. Guideline additions and revisions in

Difficulty-specific

Kantan


Futsuu


Muzukashii


Oni


Inner Oni

i hate this thread

https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/2810

i love birds

e: i pressed thebutton