Far too often I see hybrid mapsets with a full osu! spread and a lackluster Hard/Insane spread in another gamemode like taiko tacked onto an osu! spread for easier ranking. I believe it is lazy, low quality, and discourages newer players from trying out other gamemodes. It is unreasonable to expect newer players to be able to play Hard difficulties and this is why non-hybrid reasonable spreads below 3:30 in length require at least a Normal difficulty. I believe the converted difficulties are both not good enough and not necessary. While newer players could just play the converted osu! Easy/Normal difficulties I strongly believe it doesn't give the player an idea of what true maps in the gamemode play like, and there is no quality control for converted difficulties. I believe it is perfectly reasonable to expect at least a Normal difficulty for each gamemode in hybrid spreads.

My proposal is to delete the following from the ranking criteria rules:

Hybrid beatmapsets without osu! difficulties must form a reasonable spread for each included game mode. Each game mode's spread must comply with its difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.
If a hybrid beatmapset includes osu! difficulties...
...the osu! difficulties must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with the osu! difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.
...converted difficulties must form a reasonable spread. For example, a beatmapset with Easy and Normal osu! difficulties and an Insane osu!catch difficulty is not permitted. One or more additional difficulties may need to be added to fill the gap.
...any two or more osu!taiko, osu!mania, or osu!catch difficulties must be arranged in a reasonable spread.

and to change

Single-mode beatmapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with its respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.

to

All beatmapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with their respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.

If you have any comments or concerns please post them below, thank you!

I think this may possibly discourage mappers from tacking on sets from other gamemodes in general, similar to how the old rule of full spread all the time unless >5 minutes got people to use R3 Music Box and extend the audio and such.

In my experience, people usually try out standard and then branch out to other gamemodes. At this point, they usually know how to look for easys and normals. The only real issue that arises is people opting to play crappy converted maps instead of actual maps built for the gamemode, but your suggestion doesn't really solve that problem anyway in the context of players transitioning over from standard.

I'm just a std player/mapper though, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Marblelemons wrote:

I think this may possibly discourage mappers from tacking on sets from other gamemodes in general, similar to how the old rule of full spread all the time unless >5 minutes got people to use R3 Music Box and extend the audio and such. I think of it as more quality over quantity. While there may be less overall hybrid sets, every new hybrid set will contain difficulties that newer players can play for every gamemode included. I believe these accessible difficulties are key to getting players to become long time players.

In my experience, people usually try out standard and then branch out to other gamemodes. At this point, they usually know how to look for easys and normals. The only real issue that arises is people opting to play crappy converted maps instead of actual maps built for the gamemode, but your suggestion doesn't really solve that problem anyway in the context of players transitioning over from standard. Yes, the issue of converted difficulties being horrible and not very suited for serious play is an issue that I think needs to be addressed in the future. But I want to tackle issues one at a time. My hope is that this will encourage players to try out real difficulties for gamemodes because there will be accessible difficulties attached to every hybrid set and they won't have to resort to converts.

I'm just a std player/mapper though, so take my thoughts with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your input!

is this forces indirectly mappers to map almost all the diffs on a main gamemode by himself because of this rule ?
"A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creator."
if i have a set with multiples gd'ers and i want to create a hybrid set with a mania mapper, for example, i must map more diffs than the mania mapper so basically i need to map all the std diffs and prohibit std gd'ers or forcing myself to get multiples differents gd's of mania mappers to have some guest difficulty on my std set.

in my opinion this would probably kill hybrid sets with guest difficulties if you can't map the others modes

realy0_ wrote:

is this forces indirectly mappers to map almost all the diffs on a main gamemode by himself because of this rule ?
"A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creator."
if i have a set with multiples gd'ers and i want to create a hybrid set with a mania mapper, for example, i must map more diffs than the mania mapper so basically i need to map all the std diffs and prohibit std gd'ers or forcing myself to get multiples differents gd's of mania mappers to have some guest difficulty on my std set.

in my opinion this would probably kill hybrid sets with guest difficulties if you can't map the others modes

You'd need to map a minimum of 3 diffs yourself for most 2 mode hybrids spreads, with the other gamemode having a Normal/Hard/Insane spread. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. I believe one of the main reasons that full spreads for hybrid sets aren't made is because of what you said. Also because I believe mappers tend to look for the easy way out and only make as many difficulties as required. Forcing it would give them no other option.

Wholeheartedly agree with this. Maybe in 2011 you'd need converts because of a lack of mode-specific ranking criteria and/or difficulties. But nowadays? Not even close. The conversion algorithm simply does not work.

This can encourage new players to try on different modes.
I believe the game has migrated from the era of "Taiko/CTB/Mania are minigames", to 4 modes having similar positions. Although these three subdominant modes do not have much attention, nor number of maps ranked compared with STD, this actually calls for the above-mentioned amendment on hybrid mapsets.

As a 4-mode player, here's what I think:
Given there is a popularity on hybrid ranked mapsets presently (I cannot forsee how this will affect the status of hybrid mapping), new players can be more frequently exposed to lower difficulty levels of other modes.

For instance, we have seen many STD+Taiko mapsets being, 10 STD diffs to its extreme, but only two diffs (Muzukashii and Oni) for Taiko. This does not welcome the newcomers at all, as they do not have the skill level to try those modes. Plus, the number of maps of the other modes are quite minimal compared to STD, putting a restriction so that mappers must include lowest diff down to Normal (Futsuu/Salad/NM) benefits this era of osu! gaming. (maps having drain time >3:30 is exempted of course)

As a 3-mode mapper, here's what I think:
Sometimes hybrid mapsets are often been portrayed as a shortcut for ranking big mapsets. 10 STD diffs and 2 Taiko diffs practically only requires 1 STD BN and 1 Taiko BN, so the total number of times for any diffs be checked will be at least 12. However, a 10 STD diff only mapset requires 2 STD BNs, so the total number of times for any diffs be checked is actually 20.

I know that recently there is a discussion on whether each mode should get 2 BNs be checking, but that is kinda plainly discouraging mappers from trying ranking hybrid mapsets. Why not have mappers mapping 3 diffs for their second mode, so that new players can enjoy two modes simultaneously, and other players can branch into other modes easier with a variety of maps available?

Faputa wrote:

This can encourage new players to try on different modes.
I believe the game has migrated from the era of "Taiko/CTB/Mania are minigames", to 4 modes having similar positions. Although these three subdominant modes do not have much attention, nor number of maps ranked compared with STD, this actually calls for the above-mentioned amendment on hybrid mapsets.

As a 4-mode player, here's what I think:
Given there is a popularity on hybrid ranked mapsets presently (I cannot forsee how this will affect the status of hybrid mapping), new players can be more frequently exposed to lower difficulty levels of other modes.

For instance, we have seen many STD+Taiko mapsets being, 10 STD diffs to its extreme, but only two diffs (Muzukashii and Oni) for Taiko. This does not welcome the newcomers at all, as they do not have the skill level to try those modes. Plus, the number of maps of the other modes are quite minimal compared to STD, putting a restriction so that mappers must include lowest diff down to Normal (Futsuu/Salad/NM) benefits this era of osu! gaming. (maps having drain time >3:30 is exempted of course)

As a 3-mode mapper, here's what I think:
Sometimes hybrid mapsets are often been portrayed as a shortcut for ranking big mapsets. 10 STD diffs and 2 Taiko diffs practically only requires 1 STD BN and 1 Taiko BN, so the total number of times for any diffs be checked will be at least 12. However, a 10 STD diff only mapset requires 2 STD BNs, so the total number of times for any diffs be checked is actually 20.

I know that recently there is a discussion on whether each mode should get 2 BNs be checking, but that is kinda plainly discouraging mappers from trying ranking hybrid mapsets. Why not have mappers mapping 3 diffs for their second mode, so that new players can enjoy two modes simultaneously, and other players can branch into other modes easier with a variety of maps available?

Thank you for your feedback! While I think other things could be done with hybrid sets to further improve quality as well as this, I think its best to tackle issues one at a time.

i agree with this wholeheartedly but all i know is that people are gonna be lazy and this will overall discourage the production of hybrid sets

Several notable things have already killed hybrid sets, this would definitely be the nail in the coffin.

Source: I rank lots of hybrid sets

For mania and taiko modes it definitely seems as a good idea, but not so sure about CtB as fruits seem to convert quite nicely and this rule would overrule the apples and bananas.

However, if this rule is made just to make people less lazy, then excuse my language but I can't hold myself in this case: bitch please, where have you been when people were enforcing the lenght criterias for the lowest difficulties? If you think this is a right move for the future of the maps then start thinking for all modes instead of one of them when you want to enforce rules on actually all of the modes possible. It is clear you are talking taikos but as I stated before, the rules suggested enforce changes on the piano too, as well as apples. Moreover, if I recall correctly, except Sotarks, most of the standard/taiko hybrids are around 3 minutes long so your rule wouldn't make that much of an impact on the community, they will just let drums die naturally because, what's new, people are not going to be as productive as you imagine.

As stated by my predecessors you are forcing hybrids to die as soon as possible. It's already hell on earth to get various mode BNs and even regular modders on hybrids if there are just single diffs from other modes, not to mention if you flood the beatmaps with all kinds of levels of maps. And the most common reason has always been 'because your set is a hybrid'. Straight in our faces.

Krfawy wrote:

For mania and taiko modes it definitely seems as a good idea, but not so sure about CtB as fruits seem to convert quite nicely and this rule would overrule the apples and bananas.

However, if this rule is made just to make people less lazy, then excuse my language but I can't hold myself in this case: bitch please, where have you been when people were enforcing the lenght criterias for the lowest difficulties? If you think this is a right move for the future of the maps then start thinking for all modes instead of one of them when you want to enforce rules on actually all of the modes possible. It is clear you are talking taikos but as I stated before, the rules suggested enforce changes on the piano too, as well as apples. Moreover, if I recall correctly, except Sotarks, most of the standard/taiko hybrids are around 3 minutes long so your rule wouldn't make that much of an impact on the community, they will just let drums die naturally because, what's new, people are not going to be as productive as you imagine.

As stated by my predecessors you are forcing hybrids to die as soon as possible. It's already hell on earth to get various mode BNs and even regular modders on hybrids if there are just single diffs from other modes, not to mention if you flood the beatmaps with all kinds of levels of maps. And the most common reason has always been 'because your set is a hybrid'. Straight in our faces.

I have taken all gamemodes into account, but I am admittedly not as knowledgeable about ctb as I am with mania and taiko. My new proposal still allows for people to be lazy. All it requires is at least one additional diff. A normal difficultly. A difficulty that is actually accessible for newer players.

Moreover, if I recall correctly, except Sotarks, most of the standard/taiko hybrids are around 3 minutes long so your rule wouldn't make that much of an impact on the community

I'm sorry but the numbers don't agree with you. I have taken a snapshot of the last 5 pages of ranked taiko maps and looked through all the mapsets and these are my findings. Of the past 29 hybrid osu!/taiko hybrid sets that have been ranked, 86% of them have been under 3 minutes. Most of them are TV sized or shorter. Of all the hybrid mapsets I viewed, a mere 7% contain diffs that are accessible to newer players. (That is either a kantan or futsuu) I strongly believe this shows that you can't leave it up to the mappers to decide whether or not to provide accessible difficulties to newcomers. If you allow them to get away without having them, they will. If mappers weren't required to include Hard diffs in hybrid spreads they wouldn't. It'd be all Onis/Rains/MX's . I only used taiko in this example because you mentioned it btw. Similar deep looks into other gamemodes could find interesting finds too.

You are correct though, a decent majority of these mapsets are from eiri- and Sotarks. I have to disagree with you about hybrids being "hell on earth" to rank, though. Ranking hybrids shouldn't be as easy as ranking a single gamemode. The mapset includes an another whole gamemode of content. It being a special case shouldn't be an excuse for lax quality. The same quality expectations that apply to single gamemode beatmapset should apply to a hybrid gamemode beatmapset. My interpretation of this is that all beatmaps within a reasonable length should be accessible to newer players. Single gamemode beatmaps are expected to meet this requirement, so should hybrid sets.

Thank you for your feedback c:

From experience with mapping full spreads for all modes several times, taiko and mania are incredibly easy to do lower difficulties, and I can see why you would want to enforce stricter rules if that was your only area of knowledge to draw on. Thing is catch is the slowest gamemode to speedmap low difficulties by a large margin due to playtesting requirements + no mode editor.

Minimum difficulty as platter needs to stay
(not sure why you're asking for stricter rules when you've never done anything above a hard tho :/ implementing this would leave you unaffected and put larger burdens on other people)

Sinnoh wrote:

From experience with mapping full spreads for all modes several times, taiko and mania are incredibly easy to do lower difficulties, and I can see why you would want to enforce stricter rules if that was your only area of knowledge to draw on. Thing is catch is the slowest gamemode to speedmap low difficulties by a large margin due to playtesting requirements + no mode editor.

Minimum difficulty as platter needs to stay
(not sure why you're asking for stricter rules when you've never done anything above a hard tho :/ implementing this would leave you unaffected and put larger burdens on other people)

Hmm yeah I wasn't so sure about ctb. Mapping one extra diff in mania and taiko seems completely reasonable. But I do know that its just as unreasonable to expect new ctb players to play platters as it is to expect taiko/mania players to play hard diffs. I can barely play platters myself hahaha

Sinnoh wrote:

(not sure why you're asking for stricter rules when you've never done anything above a hard tho :/ implementing this would leave you unaffected and put larger burdens on other people)

Dang, I've occasionally mapped above a hard! But the rules probably wouldn't affect me even if I did because I don't collaborate with osu!standard mappers. My main goal with this isn't to make it harder on mappers, but to make every hybrid set accessible to newer players so they can try new gamemodes and see if they are interested. If there isn't any accessible difficulties they might try it anyways and think its too hard and never play again.

Thank you very much for your feedback. I will definitely consider changing my proposal to exclude ctb if others in the ctb community agree with you because I really don't know much about ctb.

...uh, I mean, I perfectly agree with the whole proposal.

If mappers are gonna be "discouraged" from creating hybrid mapsets just because of the lack of people willing to check them (because hello hello, they're literally two or more gamemodes for one song in the same set), and the fact that they'll have to map all the difficulties needed for a reasonable spread for all the gamemodes included on their sets, then so be it.

I highly, soooo highly doubt the ammount of hybrid sets is gonna drop to an absolute zero if this gets considered, mostly because, news flash; not because a lot of people are lazy to map all the diffs that should be required does it mean everybody is like that.
Laziness ain't an excuse for only mapping two high diffs for an additional gamemode on a full set.

We're at a point in the mapping scene for all modes alike in which content is being pushed out at pretty much more than twice the rate at which it was a bunch of years ago.
If you're gonna include an additional gamemode, go with it all the way through. Asking mappers to map two/three diffs above H icon from a different gamemode for your set just because "fuck it, I wanna make this a hybrid just because" is as mediocre and half-assed of an effort as it can get, no offense.

Regarding the wording of the rule, though, I suggest this:

All mode-specific difficulties included in a mapset must form a reasonable spread. The spread must comply with its respective modes' difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.

realy0_ wrote:

is this forces indirectly mappers to map almost all the diffs on a main gamemode by himself because of this rule ?
"A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creator."
if i have a set with multiples gd'ers and i want to create a hybrid set with a mania mapper, for example, i must map more diffs than the mania mapper so basically i need to map all the std diffs and prohibit std gd'ers or forcing myself to get multiples differents gd's of mania mappers to have some guest difficulty on my std set.

Literally no. The GDers from another gamemode are (and if not, should be) a completely different story from the main mode for which the mapper made the difficulties.

E.g: If I map a catch set with 5 difficulties and a std mapper decided he wanted to map 7 on his own for my set to turn it into a hybrid, I should by no means have to map the same quantity of diffs as he did, since it's a completely different story and it defeats the whole purpose of mapping a hybrid for different modes, since hey, maybe the mode for which the other mapper made the diffs could warrant a wider diffspread compared to the mode I mapped.

Hareimu wrote:

...uh, I mean, I perfectly agree with the whole proposal.

If mappers are gonna be "discouraged" from creating hybrid mapsets just because of the lack of people willing to check them (because hello hello, they're literally two or more gamemodes for one song in the same set), and the fact that they'll have to map all the difficulties needed for a reasonable spread for all the gamemodes included on their sets, then so be it.

I highly, soooo highly doubt the ammount of hybrid sets is gonna drop to an absolute zero if this gets considered, mostly because, news flash; not because a lot of people are lazy to map all the diffs that should be required does it mean everybody is like that.
Laziness ain't an excuse for only mapping two high diffs for an additional gamemode on a full set.

We're at a point in the mapping scene for all modes alike in which content is being pushed out at pretty much more than twice the rate at which it was a bunch of years ago.
If you're gonna include an additional gamemode, go with it all the way through. Asking mappers to map two/three diffs above H icon from a different gamemode for your set just because "fuck it, I wanna make this a hybrid just because" is as mediocre and half-assed of an effort as it can get, no offense.

Regarding the wording of the rule, though, I suggest this:

All mode-specific difficulties included in a mapset must form a reasonable spread. The spread must comply with its respective modes' difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria.

realy0_ wrote:

is this forces indirectly mappers to map almost all the diffs on a main gamemode by himself because of this rule ?
"A beatmapset host must have beatmapped equal or more difficulties than any guest difficulty beatmap creator."
if i have a set with multiples gd'ers and i want to create a hybrid set with a mania mapper, for example, i must map more diffs than the mania mapper so basically i need to map all the std diffs and prohibit std gd'ers or forcing myself to get multiples differents gd's of mania mappers to have some guest difficulty on my std set.

Literally no. The GDers from another gamemode are (and if not, should be) a completely different story from the main mode for which the mapper made the difficulties.

E.g: If I map a catch set with 5 difficulties and a std mapper decided he wanted to map 7 on his own for my set to turn it into a hybrid, I should by no means have to map the same quantity of diffs as he did, since it's a completely different story and it defeats the whole purpose of mapping a hybrid for different modes, since hey, maybe the mode for which the other mapper made the diffs could warrant a wider diffspread compared to the mode I mapped.

Thank you for your feedback Hareimu!

From a mania perspective I definitely agree with this proposal.

STD -> Mania converts, even lower level ones, don't prepare players at all for actual mania maps due to them using patterns that pretty much no mania mapper would use. They also fail to take players wanting to learn higher keymodes into account since key count is tied to SR in converts. Creating (and checking) lower level mania difficulties is incredibly easy and I don't think it would require too much effort on mappers' (or BNs') parts.

Ofc I can't really speak for taiko or CTB since I'm not familiar with either mode but I think this would do nothing but good for lower level mania players or std players wanting to try out mania.

...However judging from previous posts I can see how this could be detrimental to hybrid sets involving other modes so it might be unrealistic to implement this

As someone who casually likes to make hybrid sets and have literally zero clue about other gamemode specific mapping things, I personally don't like this. Because it's actually harder and more time consuming to make and push hybrid sets imo~ To me, it's not a matter of being "lazy" or "low quality", because literally almost all my maps are full versions and even then I like to make full spreads. But when I make a hybrid set, I have a lot more headaches getting mods, waiting for checks, waiting for my GDers to answer their mods on the hybrid side, etc etc.

I really dislike it, because I make hybrid sets because I want to at least give a few more options for players and people from other gamemodes even though I have literally no knowledge about mania/taiko/ctb, but that's just a "bonus", something "extra", if I was forced to actually make another full spread for each gamemode I may want to add, I would probably loose most if not all the motivation I have of even considering making a hybrid set since it would only delay like hell and give me a lot of trouble to rank my standard diffs which is my main focus.

However, I also understand your concern. You said "Ranking hybrids shouldn't be as easy as ranking a single gamemode". And here is the tricky part where even I am not quite sure about what to say/think, because as far as I know (and I may be wrong since I don't fully understand other gamemodes okay?), most hybrid sets that have osu! as main gamemode, the host probably don't even care that much about taiko/mania/ctb, he just does it for similar reasons as mine, "bonus content" for the mapset, so if things gets even more stricter and hard, there may be some people who'll simply stop doing hybrids because it's not worth the effort, like me for example, and this is where I kinda agree with Ascendance when he said: "Several notable things have already killed hybrid sets, this would definitely be the nail in the coffin."

I don't think your concern is bad, but the proposed solution however, I personally don't see many good sides since it doesn't really solve the problem, it just masks it with another issue that may arise...

I don't see how making your normal set into a hybrid makes "for easier ranking" but then again I don't have experience ranking such myself so what'd I know. From the sets I have been ranking as a BN though it felt like hybrids were way more hassle.

That aside, I don't really agree with this (much along the lines of what few people have been saying here already). I see the "other modes" in hybrid sets as bonus content, and like has been mentioned, adding restriction to that will just make people drop them. I for sure would. It's reasonable to wish that there would be quality content for new players as well, but not like hybrids are the only maps for those modes, or at least that should not be the case. There is already content that provides for the aspiring players of the modes, so I don't see what benefits it'd bring to force hybrids do the same when it could just as likely just kill them altogether.

As for the "low quality", I presume you're just talking about the quality of the spread so to say, since quality of the maps is not really relevant at all in this topic. If the other gamemode maps are low quality that's problem for the nominators of that mode, not the spread.

It was really simple and solid. yeah, I'm agree.

honestly I was a bit concerned about the "converted stuff"
because I don't really think the mapper can consider the converted spread since it is actually a problem with the converted SR system. simply now, we are creating their modes but why should worry about converted spread? It's somewhat weird. so personally I suggest that we have to submit a proposal to fix this contradictory system and need to remove this RC(..converted difficulties must form a reasonable spread) anyways, shouldn't be abuse

so yeah, important thing is reasonable spread.

(Single-mode beatmapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with its respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria)
(All beatmapsets must form a reasonable spread. This spread must comply with their respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria)

imo, It is not difficult to make beginner levels and anyways it provides a better pattern and quality than converted stuff. I personally don't think this way will make hybrid sets dead. just believe the overall map quality will go up..

Technically the current rules regarding Hyrbid/ single-mode sets are perfectly fine. The thing is that Muzukashii/Oni, or Platter/Rain, or whatever Mania got are not reasonable spreads. It's equivalent of having Hard/Insane for a TV Size lenght song - which isn't allowed. I don't really understand why we kept Muzukashii/Oni (at least for Taiko) as a minimum standard for so many years when Futsuu and Kantan difficulties are omnipresent long enough.

as long it's not a must have to consider a Kantan when the osu! set offers an Easy difficulty to comply the similarity I'm really fine with having Futsuu at least as the lowest difficulty. Also, this should apply to all modes whatsoever. Either all or none.

i don't have much opinion on this proposal since i don't map other game modes and i don't host hybrid sets, so i asked all bn/nat members for their impressions through an "agree/neutral/disagree" vote

99 of the 116 people responded
- 55 agree
- 41 neutral or no response (24+17 respectively)
- 20 disagree

this doesn't mean much on its own since lots of people voting aren't affected by this (namely osu-only mappers), so these are the agree/disagree votes narrowed down to people who map other modes:
- 27/55 agree
- 12/20 disagree

...which is a pretty similar balance as the totals, and a similar balance to numbers narrowed down to people who have ranked osu!+tcm hybrid mapsets
- 19/55 agree
- 9/20 disagree

---

so numbers say that capable mapping people (bn/nat) mostly want this to happen, but reasons why/whynot are still important

arguments i've seen in favor of the proposal:
- converted diffs suck mapping-wise and don't make for good diffspreads
- not giving players access to good low diffs makes it harder to engage with game mode, especially since hybrid sets are people's introduction to those modes
- minigames arent minigames anymore, so don't need to be treated as sub-content
- mania converted low diffs don't allow different key modes

arguments i've seen against it:
- more work to make hybrid sets
- less bns willing to nominate (and less thorough checks than 2 separate sets)
- other modes are a bonus on these hybrid sets

alternatives proposed:
- don't make this apply to ctb because those low diffs convert nicely

---

conclusion i'm coming to here is that i think the proposal should be applied. the first argument against the proposal is accepted by many of the affected mappers, second counterargument doesn't seem like a huge obstacle imo (since checking +1 normal diff isn't much different from the current situation? could have more checks per mode but that's a separate proposal), and third counterargument is opposing the arguments in favor of the proposal (which want the non-osu modes to not be bonus sub-content)

if ctb people think it's not worth changing, i guess it could be kept for those if enough people say so. otehr modes seem to be more in favor of having reasonable spreads in their hybrid sets so i'd go with that at minimum. to make sure this doesnt "kill hybrid sets", it could also be passed with a rollback condition

also if there's other arguments i'm missing, now's the time to voice them

ye taiko low diffs convert awfully, the svs make no sense, finishers dont work with certain hitsounding techniques, etc. etc. cant talk for other gamemodes.

merged