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[proposal osu!taiko] Spinner recovery time in lower diffs

posted
Total Posts
26
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
Topic Starter
tatatat
Hi!
First I'd like to say there are a few things I'd like to propose to be added to the taiko ranking criteria, and then I'll explain why.
I'd like to add the following to the glossary

Spinner recovery time: The time between the end of a spinner and the following hit object.

and I 'd like to add this to the kantan guidelines

Spinner recovery time should be at least 1 beats. This is to ensure adequate time to stop hitting the spinner and prepare for the next object.

and this to the futsuu guidelines

Spinner recovery time should be at least 1 beats. This is to ensure adequate time to stop hitting the spinner and prepare for the next object.

I believe these should be added for quite a few reasons, while they are already generally enforced, putting it down in guidelines will help guide newer mappers. I believe that most of the time newer players hit spinners by simply mashing. They need time to stop mashing, and hit the next object. Also, if newer players don't hit spinners fast enough or correctly, they might still be mashing even after the spinners end, and that may incorrectly hit the next note.

If you have any suggestions about wording, or perhaps the guidelines themselves, please discuss it below. Thank you!
Last edited by tatatat , edited 1 time in total.
Nifty
902 posts
Joined September 2014
Nifty
sure
Alchyr
503 posts
Joined October 2014
Alchyr
well i don't see any problems
strickluke
433 posts
Joined March 2015
strickluke
i thought this was already a guideline

if it isn't, add it i guess
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
i think it should be 1 beat for both difficulty levels, because the amount you have to spam is derived from the od of the beatmap so making the spinner shorter forcibly is only going to do so much
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
Topic Starter
tatatat

Okoratu wrote:

i think it should be 1 beat for both difficulty levels, because the amount you have to spam is derived from the od of the beatmap so making the spinner shorter forcibly is only going to do so much
I think it has less to do with how much you have to spam, and more until when you can stop spamming. When the player realizes the spinner is over they will begin to stop, the less recovery time the less time they have to prepare for the next note. The length of the spinner/spinner ticks or whatever they're called isn't the problem, its the recovery time. I don't even actually expect the newer players to always hit the spinner correctly, but they'll keep trying until the end of the spinner. Also the usual 1 OD difference between kantan and futsuu only ever amounts to 1-2 spinner ticks for normal length spinners (about 4/1 to 8/1). The difficulty of hitting the spinner doesn't change much from kantan->futsuu, its more the skill of the player changes. I look forward to seeing your response!
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
That... is fair enough, I'll write this as a PR in a bit unless someone has a differing opinion on it
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
Topic Starter
tatatat

Okoratu wrote:

That... is fair enough, I'll write this as a PR in a bit unless someone has a differing opinion on it
Thank you!
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
https://github.com/ppy/osu-wiki/pull/1839

i dont know taiko so tell me if something's out of place
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
Spinner recovery time in taiko works very differently from standard. The naturally lower OD makes the spinners already have fewer ticks, so there is no need to shorten them. The general guidelines (1/2 for preceding and following) work just fine here.
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
Topic Starter
tatatat

Raiden wrote:

Spinner recovery time in taiko works very differently from standard. The naturally lower OD makes the spinners already have fewer ticks, so there is no need to shorten them. The general guidelines (1/2 for preceding and following) work just fine here.
Yes it is different from standard Raiden. The point isn't to make the spinners have less ticks or make them easier though, its to give newer players more time to stop mashing(likely incorrectly mashing) before preparing for the next note. It'd be comparable to having rest moments after 1/2 patterns in kantans. Yes 1/2 patterns aren't very dense, but allowing the player a rest moment afterwards allows the player to get their bearings. Spinners typically require 1-2 hits per beat at the low OD of kantans/futsuu which is comparable to 1/2 patterns. So why shouldn't there be comparable rest moments?
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
People will get spinners very quickly because they do not require any higher brain function; stopping the "incorrectly mashing" is something innate, unlike actually hitting patterns which require neuronal rewiring. Also, they do not alter the FC/pp obtained. So changing this is unnecessary. The 1/2 space was tested with players of all skill levels.
Last edited by Raiden , edited 1 time in total.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
i disagree for once

they significantly hide whatever is on the playfield so especially for lower skilled players this can lead to them not seeing the notes that directly follow the spinner if the spinner ends too soon for the upcoming objects

yea you dont require that much intelligence to mash shiet like that, but if the spinner is
A) really short
B) ends really close towards the next objects
in that combination the next objects could result in really frustrating misses so i agree with the baseline of this proposal
Nardoxyribonucleic
osu! Alumni
3,009 posts
Joined May 2011
Nardoxyribonucleic
Current guideline works pretty well for all difficulties in my opinion. 1/2 note-spinner and spinner-note distances allow sufficient readability and players could finish the dk spam way before the end point.
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
1/2 is simply not "too soon for the upcoming objects" (I reckon you meant "close to?")

As I said, the 1/2 gap was tested with players of all skill levels. The naturally lower OD was sufficient to remove extra ticks from the spinner so that it was not so long. Adding more specific exceptions to the gap for lower difficulties is simply not intuitive and people are already having enough trouble reading the base RC >_> so it's unnecessary to change this from my pov
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
oh no, i was specifically talking about spinners that are around or shorter than 3/1 in length (idk what we tested with)

because then you get so little time to figure out what is happening to your screen that you just get notes blocked from vision

in which aspect i think the proposal is fair enough if it factors in the length of a spinner
Lumenite-
631 posts
Joined April 2015
Lumenite-
i heavily agree with raiden on this issue, he was able to phrase it much better than i could and i've had an issue with this proposal for a while

i think if anything the shortest amount of time that should pass between a spinner and a subsequent object should be 1/1 like oko said in lower diffs period unless the bpm is rather high

and then like raiden said, od lowers spinner "length" enough already, the jump from OD3 -> OD4 is enough to adjust spinners imo

in any case, 2 beats recovery time for any spinner is pretty unnecessary and too long imo, and i think current guidelines have been working pretty well regarding spinners. but if a change needs to be made, 1/1 should be the number for both diffs-no 2/1 at all.
Last edited by Lumenite- , edited 1 time in total.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
removing this from the pr until a consensus is met
tatatat
923 posts
Joined March 2015
Topic Starter
tatatat
Updated proposal based on incandescence's suggestion.
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
so uh... do taiko people agree with the changes made? (all diffs being 1 beat as far as i can tell)
Tyistiana
osu! Alumni
541 posts
Joined February 2012
Tyistiana
I'm almost okay with this proposal as it is right now.

But by personally, I think that Futsuu doesn't need 1 beat spinner recovery time. The usual rhythm for Futsuu is 2/1 - 1/1 - 1/2. So the audience at this level can handle 1/2 rhythm.

Unlike Kantan, the usual rhythm is 4/1 - 2/1 - 1/1. 1/2 will be too fast for them since Kantan didn't introduce any 1/2 pattern yet. Even spinner is easy to hit, just hit d-k continuously. But as I spectated my IRL friend play Kantan, most of them unable to hit the spinner in time or unable to concentrate to the note after spinner when it has only 1/2 recovery time. Even this proposal became approved, it just reduces the amount of hit only a little bit. But for the beginner, there is a lot. Giving 1/1 recovery time really makes sense since the pattern that fastest in Kantan is 1/1. So 1/1 gap between a note and the end of spinner sounds legit.

So I think that this proposal really makes sense, for Kantan only in my opinion.
1/1 spinner recovery time for Futsuu difficulty is too strict to put it as a guideline for me.
Last edited by Tyistiana , edited 1 time in total.
realy0_
1,737 posts
Joined August 2016
realy0_
^ basically like above when i was a total newbie at taiko
Raiden
osu! Alumni
2,419 posts
Joined January 2013
Raiden
Again, the naturally lower OD assigned to a Kantan makes the spinner have fewer ticks. A Futsuu with OD4 will have more ticks in an equal length spinner with half a beat of recovery time than a Kantan with OD3 does, also with half a beat of recovery time. And fwiw, this was actually tested with players of various skill levels (but all of them being Kantan players). None of them complained about the spinner.

There is no logic to holding the views of "RC is too hard to comprehend and interpretate" and "add this exception specifically for Kantan" simultaneously. Adding a specific exception makes the RC even more "convoluted" as that's yet another piece of information that you must take into consideration when modding.
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,420 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
Gonna conform with Raiden and Taikocracy. Spinners in low difficulties are rare anyways and the current guidelines are flexible enough to not make any change to them.
Okoayu
Nomination Assessment Team / Elite Nominator
4,959 posts
Joined May 2012
Okoayu
spinners behave whack with bpm and OD considered

in general the difference between both values seems to be either not existing (as in OD 3 and 4 have the same value for 7/2 and different values by 1 for 3/1)

Or be 1 Tick at both levels so it's not like it'd burdon the player more to play these, default skin spinner disappears when you hit all the notes in it taht are to spam so actually for the amount it would achieve this guideline would actually matter very little

would just rather not have it then i guess
pishifat
osu! Paragon
3,812 posts
Joined August 2013
pishifat
gonna archive this since it's not going anywhere :(
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