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[Rule Change] Repurposing Covered Reverse Arrow Guideline

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Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
current covered reverse arrow guideline is going more or less completely ignored by mappers/bn's in higher difficulties to the point that it has no reason to exist in its current state. i think it should be moved into the diff-specific guidelines to keep modders from being confused about why it exists, which atm is primarily for lowdiffs anyway

uh so the fix would be to move it from general guidelines into diffspecific easy, normal, and hard (and maybe insane?)
tatatat
Can you please specify the gamemode?
Noffy

tatatat wrote:

Can you please specify the gamemode?
Reverse arrows only exist in standard gameplay, the guideline addressed is part of the standard rc...
Hollow Delta
Makes sense, but what good will not including the guideline in Insane+ diffs come from it? There are cases where covering reverse arrows in Insane+ would be detrimental to the map. It's also a fact that this is less of an issue in Insane+ diffs, but it can still happen.

My point is this change doesn't feel useful.
Topic Starter
UndeadCapulet
there are cases where literally anything would be detrimental to the map, but we don't have a spam of rc guidelines for them. current meta has lots and lots of covered reverses in expert diffs, so the guideline isn't doing anything in its current state.
defiance
I agree but I think it should only apply to e,n,h. Insane is usually the place where players are expected to have better reading skills (reading different types of stacks like 1/1 1/2 1/4) and better sightreading skills. So I think having covered reverses shouldn't be too difficult for insane players unless i am overestimating them.
Monstrata
I really don't think covered reverse arrows should become diff-specific. This heavily implies that it should be "okay" for higher difficulties. It should not. Covering repeat arrows in a way that makes them unreadable is an unfair gameplay mechanic.

I'd rather have this rule further clarified because a lot of cases of "covered repeat arrows" are actually fine, such as slider-head overlaps (which won't be obstructed by combo-burst) or slider-body overlaps (there's often enough visibility). It's mainly tail/repeat overlaps and overlaps with very little room in between slider/repeat arrow.

@quanhitter39: Just want to clarify: why "covered reverse arrow" is an "unfair gameplay mechanic" imo is because it's not a mechanic you can read/sightread. There is zero way of reading and expecting the repeat arrow because the only way you can tell if a slider is a repeat is if there is a repeat arrow, and if you can't see the repeat arrow, there's literally no other indicator. You would play the slider with the expectation that it is not a repeat. This is why it becomes an unfair gameplay element.

---

Possible ways of clarifying cases where covered repeat arrows should be unrankable, with diff-specific guideline in mind:

-Repeat arrows must be visible for at least 1/x a beat before they are meant to be played. (4/1 for E/N, 2/1 for H, 1/1 for I/X?) <--- Bearing in mind 1/1 at 180 bpm is approximately 350ms which is higher than AR 10 already.
-Repeat arrows must be visible for at least 3/4th's the AR of the difficulty. (would be more general)




Cases where the repeat arrow is obstructed by a slider-body should be considered case by case though, I can see some slider shapes being fine (linear/curved, simple shapes) while others with very complex designs potentially obstructing the location of the repeat arrow because of maybe the slider-ball covering the area the repeat arrow is supposed to appear.
Refills

Bubblun wrote:

Makes sense, but what good will not including the guideline in Insane+ diffs come from it? There are cases where covering reverse arrows in Insane+ would be detrimental to the map. It's also a fact that this is less of an issue in Insane+ diffs, but it can still happen.

My point is this change doesn't feel useful.

Guidelines can be broken if you can provide a valid reason to break it.

UndeadCapulet wrote:

(and maybe insane?)

Maybe, not actually yes to Insane difficulties.
pishifat
the reverse arrow guideline isn't at all clear about what's acceptable, so i can see how it's been ignored. i don't think allowing reverse arrow covering in all cases in higher diffs is okay though, and the guideline prevents people from doing obviously unreadable things with rc justification

Monstrata wrote:

-Repeat arrows must be visible for at least 1/x a beat before they are meant to be played. (4/1 for E/N, 2/1 for H, 1/1 for I/X?) <--- Bearing in mind 1/1 at 180 bpm is approximately 350ms which is higher than AR 10 already.
-Repeat arrows must be visible for at least 3/4th's the AR of the difficulty. (would be more general)


i'd have to do testing, but i think one of these ideas worded as guidelines could be the way to handle this
pishifat
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