Not all Guidelines are created equals. I think we should (once we are finished) order the guidelines in order of importance. I wouldn't want this to devolve in to debates over specific order but I think it would be helpful to figure out generally which Guidelines are very important and which are less so. This would also give readers a sense as which guidelines are important right off the bat instead of being told by a MAT/BAT that the guideline is really important.
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Ordering Guidelines
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an excellent idea, though most guidelines are supposed to be equal in their magnitude to their particular topic, else they would be rules and not guidelines.
i am certainly all for a logical structuring based on that fact though
i am certainly all for a logical structuring based on that fact though
a guideline is "supposed" to be respectable in the 99% of cases....
some guidelines are respectable in less than 10% of cases as now.
some guidelines are respectable in less than 10% of cases as now.
Examples? And qualify how they are in the majority.
Make sure that you can pass each difficulty in your mapset. Continually test-playing your map is one of the best ways to spot mistakes and correct issues.this don't happen in at least 1 case from 5.
Beat placement should follow the time-distance equality rule (using distance snap while placing beats enforces this). This means that you shouldn't have some fast notes with a huge distance between them followed by closely-placed (but slow) notes. This gets really confusing if the player isn't the person who designed the beatmap! Having some logic to the beat placement should be one of your goals.mostly insane and harders than it ... still about 1 of 6
The song should not be too long. Aim for 3 minutes maximum; anything longer gets tiring. If you need help editing a song down to length, feel free to ask in the Beatmap General Questions forum.more than 180 secs of total time? might be about 2 out of 5 cases.. or even 1 on 2...
Use breaks where possible. Even if they are only 5-10 seconds, it allows a bit of recovery and hand repositioning for players. However, try to avoid longer breaks that are in excess of 15 seconds. Breaks should especially be used with Easy/Normal difficulties.Most cases? most maps i have bare more than 15 secs long breaks
Options such as letterboxing, countdown, and audio lead-in should be consistent between difficulties. Having cohesive settings throughout your mapset will look much more professional, although there are always scenarios where this is impossible. One difficulty might start at the beginning of the mp3, where a countdown is impossible but an audio lead-in is absolutely necessary; while another difficulty may start a few seconds in, where a countdown is usable but an audio lead-in is senseless.Can happen many times, but about 1 of 6
A maximum of three slider velocities should be used (including 1x). For example, you could have a single map using 0.6x, 0.8x, and 1x; or 0.75x, 1x, and 1.5x; etc. If more than three slider velocities are used, then they should make sense and be intuitive. If slider velocity changes are able to be merged (e.g. close values like 0.8x and 0.7x) while still flowing/working correctly, then they should be.about 1 from 5? 3 from 5 of mine Hard/Insanes use more than 4 SVs though...
Try to use the same tickrate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tickrates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.Higly depends on mapping style... more than half cases?
Try to have at least one spinner in each difficulty to create variety in the map and fluctuation among scores. However, if a spinner just doesn't fit anywhere in the song, then there's no need to force one.ahm... recommendation? 1 out 8 though
Make sure that your spinners are a reasonable length. Aim for a maximum spinning time of about 5-7 seconds; any longer can cause the player's wrist to get sore. If your spinner must be longer, then check with a MAT or BAT to see if it's acceptable.recommendation.. too somewhat like 2 cases from 9?
Slider tick hitsounds are discouraged. If you want to use them, then make sure that their volume is balanced (i.e. notably quieter than regular hitsounds). A very loud slider tick, especially when only used once or twice, would be extremely jarring.recommendation? like 1 case from 8
The number of maps by any mapper should not exceed the number of maps by the uploader: this means that if you have 2 diffs, no guest mapper can have more than 2 diffs; collaboration maps are exempt from this. Ask a BAT if you're unsure of who should upload the mapset.there is one even more heavier rule in the rules....
Guidelines mustn't be easily breakable... differently you can break something called Recommendation or Suggestion...
Some Rules could be better as Guideline as there are 1 good uses in 50 bad uses of some of them many times...
None of those are less than 10% (1 in 10) plus in reality the numbers of times they are applied is way higher than what you stated, can i ask you how did you get your numbers? because for statistics you need to take a pre defined number of maps chosen at random otherwise you're already messing up the number.
The only way to get a good statistic is to:
Pick a random sampling of many ranked maps. Should be at least 100+.
Check which rules are broken.
Verify that there's a logical reason for the rule to be broken.
Note that since the last point is TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE, there's no way to claim any kind of statistic on the frequency of justifiable rule breaking.
Pick a random sampling of many ranked maps. Should be at least 100+.
Check which rules are broken.
Verify that there's a logical reason for the rule to be broken.
Note that since the last point is TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE, there's no way to claim any kind of statistic on the frequency of justifiable rule breaking.
my comments in red
I think the better example to contest rules is to find or create specific examples where it's broken. I highly recommend including a [Recommendation] section as I've been pushing in the past.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
Make sure that you can pass each difficulty in your mapset. Continually test-playing your map is one of the best ways to spot mistakes and correct issues.this don't happen in at least 1 case from 5. Someone can pass it for you. This guideline is fine, and most people can half time any map they make.Beat placement should follow the time-distance equality rule (using distance snap while placing beats enforces this). This means that you shouldn't have some fast notes with a huge distance between them followed by closely-placed (but slow) notes. This gets really confusing if the player isn't the person who designed the beatmap! Having some logic to the beat placement should be one of your goals.mostly insane and harders than it ... still about 1 of 6 I'd put this under recommendation, as this is almost always broken in insanes (with jumps). It definitely needs a rewording if we keep it under guidelines.The song should not be too long. Aim for 3 minutes maximum; anything longer gets tiring. If you need help editing a song down to length, feel free to ask in the Beatmap General Questions forum.more than 180 secs of total time? might be about 2 out of 5 cases.. or even 1 on 2... It says 3 minutes, not 3:00, so 3:30, would fit. Still, recommendationUse breaks where possible. Even if they are only 5-10 seconds, it allows a bit of recovery and hand repositioning for players. However, try to avoid longer breaks that are in excess of 15 seconds. Breaks should especially be used with Easy/Normal difficulties.Most cases? most maps i have bare more than 15 secs long breaks I don't understand what you said here, but 15 seconds is a long time. Two songs I checked at random were less than 15 secondsOptions such as letterboxing, countdown, and audio lead-in should be consistent between difficulties. Having cohesive settings throughout your mapset will look much more professional, although there are always scenarios where this is impossible. One difficulty might start at the beginning of the mp3, where a countdown is impossible but an audio lead-in is absolutely necessary; while another difficulty may start a few seconds in, where a countdown is usable but an audio lead-in is senseless.Can happen many times, but about 1 of 6 I can't honestly remember the last time I saw this
A maximum of three slider velocities should be used (including 1x). For example, you could have a single map using 0.6x, 0.8x, and 1x; or 0.75x, 1x, and 1.5x; etc. If more than three slider velocities are used, then they should make sense and be intuitive. If slider velocity changes are able to be merged (e.g. close values like 0.8x and 0.7x) while still flowing/working correctly, then they should be.about 1 from 5? 3 from 5 of mine Hard/Insanes use more than 4 SVs though... and I hate that you do that. Most of your maps use a very low SV too, which makes the difference entirely negligible IMOTry to use the same tickrate on every difficulty as it is a property of the music rather than the mapping. Using high tickrates to increase score/combo/difficulty is senseless.Higly depends on mapping style... more than half cases? This is incredibly subjective, but yeah, recommendationTry to have at least one spinner in each difficulty to create variety in the map and fluctuation among scores. However, if a spinner just doesn't fit anywhere in the song, then there's no need to force one.ahm... recommendation? 1 out 8 though 4/100 on a random count I just did. the 4 count were older maps that probably could have used a spinnerMake sure that your spinners are a reasonable length. Aim for a maximum spinning time of about 5-7 seconds; any longer can cause the player's wrist to get sore. If your spinner must be longer, then check with a MAT or BAT to see if it's acceptable.recommendation.. too somewhat like 2 cases from 9?Slider tick hitsounds are discouraged. If you want to use them, then make sure that their volume is balanced (i.e. notably quieter than regular hitsounds). A very loud slider tick, especially when only used once or twice, would be extremely jarring.recommendation? like 1 case from 8The number of maps by any mapper should not exceed the number of maps by the uploader: this means that if you have 2 diffs, no guest mapper can have more than 2 diffs; collaboration maps are exempt from this. Ask a BAT if you're unsure of who should upload the mapset.there is one even more heavier rule in the rules....
Guidelines mustn't be easily breakable... differently you can break something called Recommendation or Suggestion...
Some Rules could be better as Guideline as there are 1 good uses in 50 bad uses of some of them many times...
Actually, it's not. It's totally objective the way you put it, because the rule tests for logical reasons (which are objective as it comes). Entirely subjective things would just verify as false (because they'd invoke some fallacy, which would mean that they'd fail to have a logical reason), which is a perfectly valid result. The method presented can definitively produce a solid statistic... the level of justification might be high, by the numbers would still be valid and even useable.mm201 wrote:
Verify that there's a logical reason for the rule to be broken.
Note that since the last point is TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE, there's no way to claim any kind of statistic on the frequency of justifiable rule breaking.
what about using an actual statistical test?
that takes a looong time.
It will be a good idea to add a "Recommendation" section to the draft, as proposed some times by other peoples other than me.
Rule -> They should prevent All kinds of bugs, any copyright issues, anything regarding performance and so.
Guideline -> They should represent things that are unplayable and really difficult to even discern, but can play good if used goodly.
Recommendations -> They should prevent all kind of abusing and really suggest modders suggestion that'll be accepted ( " You must have a background image on every difficulty of your map. " is a suggestion a mapper will surely answer "of course "... )
Rule -> They should prevent All kinds of bugs, any copyright issues, anything regarding performance and so.
Guideline -> They should represent things that are unplayable and really difficult to even discern, but can play good if used goodly.
Recommendations -> They should prevent all kind of abusing and really suggest modders suggestion that'll be accepted ( " You must have a background image on every difficulty of your map. " is a suggestion a mapper will surely answer "of course "... )
Haku, it might be to your own benefit to get someone who speaks fluent english and french to translate for you
because it's a brain stress to figure out what you're saying, especially when you're being vague, and it leads you to think we're "misinterpreting you" (because face it, we are.)
because it's a brain stress to figure out what you're saying, especially when you're being vague, and it leads you to think we're "misinterpreting you" (because face it, we are.)
What part is vague/misinterpretable or badly written?
Other people arleady suggested this idea and some rules and guidelines really need a general revalutation too.
Other people arleady suggested this idea and some rules and guidelines really need a general revalutation too.
by the way, I disagree.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
It would be a good idea to add a "Recommendation" section to the draft, as proposed some times by people other than me.
Rules -> They should prevent all kinds of bugs, copyright issues, performance issues and so on.
Guidelines -> They should represent things that are unplayable and really difficult to even discern, but can play well if used correctly.
Recommendations -> They should prevent all kind of abuse and provide modders a guide for suggestions that will be accepted ( "You must have a background image on every difficulty of your map." is a suggestion which a mapper will surely answer "of course")
Rules = Do not break ever. "you must have a background image on every difficulty of your map" is a rule. Things that are "unplayable" aren't allowed under rules either.
Guidelines = Shouldn't be broken under normal circumstances. Limit severe eggpain difficulty.
Recommendations = Easily broken, but should only be attempted if you know what you're doing and have a good enough reason for doing so. This is what many guidelines have turned into (3x slider multipliers max, for example). Avoid breaking these to ensure a clean and complaint free map, because someone will complain if you do it wrong.
I think most burai slider should be highly avoided, not prohibited, for example... They're unplayable on most cases, but play good, very good, in some places.. so a Guideline would work better in those cases.
I said "unplayable but play good in some", maybe a few, "cases". A guideline would work decently in discouraging difficult-to-place tricks (hidden repeats are another example).
I said "unplayable but play good in some", maybe a few, "cases". A guideline would work decently in discouraging difficult-to-place tricks (hidden repeats are another example).
examples please
No Burai slider plays good because there's infinite possible paths on it.HakuNoKaemi wrote:
I think most burai slider should be highly avoided, not prohibited, for example... They're unplayable on most cases, but play good, very good, in some places.. so a Guideline would work better in those cases.
I said "unplayable but play good in some", maybe a few, "cases". A guideline would work decently in discouraging difficult-to-place tricks (hidden repeats are another example).
well, you usually go to the end and return.
How that's hard if there is even a music cue?
How that's hard if there is even a music cue?
There's not infinite possible paths to it. There's 2-8 at the worse. I digress we shouldn't be making some things more lenient just so players can start using them. If we've allowed some burais to rank even with the rule, the system has worked. If we make it a guideline, then it just blows the door open for people to just start using them and thus abuse will increase.
My opinion is that a burai is unrankable only if there is not a clear path from beginning to end. If this is not met then it's unrankable.
Edit: Why are we talking about burais? That isn't even a guideline, it's a rule.
My opinion is that a burai is unrankable only if there is not a clear path from beginning to end. If this is not met then it's unrankable.
Edit: Why are we talking about burais? That isn't even a guideline, it's a rule.
Ok let's see.
1. Going to the end and returning
2. Going to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
3. Going back to the end, returning, going back to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
4. Going back to the end and returning x 4 then going back to the end and returning one final time.
5. etc...
See
1. Going to the end and returning
2. Going to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
3. Going back to the end, returning, going back to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
4. Going back to the end and returning x 4 then going back to the end and returning one final time.
5. etc...
See
Edit: Nvrm...
I'm talking about Burai Slider, a slider that goes back into it's same track, parallel to it covering it's own slider track, not perpendicular.
Edit: Are we really having the Burai Slider Discussion again?
Edit: Are we really having the Burai Slider Discussion again?
A normal slider can go foward and backward too.Sakura Hana wrote:
Ok let's see.
1. Going to the end and returning
2. Going to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
3. Going back to the end, returning, going back to the end, returning, going back to the end and returning one final time.
4. Going back to the end and returning x 4 then going back to the end and returning one final time.
5. etc...
See
I see no point... ban the cases from 3 and down. case 1 is pretty obvious, case 2 shold be backed up by music.
This is getting off topic. These are already unrankable without a clear doubt. Point out things that are actually ambiguous.
As an aside look up information into the subject before spouting your mouth off haku. You are showing your ignorance of what a burai slider is with your replies.
As an aside look up information into the subject before spouting your mouth off haku. You are showing your ignorance of what a burai slider is with your replies.
We are not ever going to change the burai slider rule.
That one is set in stone, pending some sort of client functionality to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Any further discussion on the matter is pointless. Direct conversation towards the topic at hand, or do not post at all, please.
That one is set in stone, pending some sort of client functionality to prevent it from happening in the first place.
Any further discussion on the matter is pointless. Direct conversation towards the topic at hand, or do not post at all, please.
That's from "Border Of Death", classical burai example.
I don't see why something like this is banned by a RULE O_O.
There are other examples of playable slider being taken as "burai" and causing general derank.
And this is inherent to a guideline reorder (making a rule go into guidelines)
They're not coming back. You're off topic as this has been established as something that is -not- changing.
Also, this thread is about separating guidelines from suggestions. Not downgrading rules to guidelines.
Also, this thread is about separating guidelines from suggestions. Not downgrading rules to guidelines.
>Thread about ordering guidelines and rules
>Somehow degrades into an argument over burai sliders
And we wonder why we're not getting anywhere. Get on topic.
>Somehow degrades into an argument over burai sliders
And we wonder why we're not getting anywhere. Get on topic.
yet not to separate guidelines from rules?
Topic Starter
This thread isn't to debate rules or guidelines, just to order the guidelines to give more clarity.
Guidelines don't require any more clarity. They're guidelines. They're are there to guide. To set the mapper on the right track.GigaClon wrote:
This thread isn't to debate rules or guidelines, just to order the guidelines to give more clarity.
There are also rules that can't be broken. It think it's clear enough.
Yeah, I don't really think that there needs to be any more subdivision to muddy the waters. Regardless of how effective some of the guidelines are, they're all worth following. Whatever isn't followed would either be ironed out or justified.
As plenty of people have pointed out there isn't any need for this. End of the discussion.