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[Rule] Slider anchors/nodes...manipulate slider speeds

posted
Total Posts
108
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Slider anchors/nodes must not be used to manipulate slider speeds (whether they are normal nodes or red ones). Using extra nodes to make a slider "wiggle" is usually fine, but using so many that the slider gets scrunched up (which also makes the sliderball go crazy) or become a "hold slider" is abuse of the hitobject's intended use and is not allowed. AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) will also point out sliders that move in an "abnormal" way, so make sure to check that if you're unsure of a slider.

This rule is confusing to me. What is its purpose? Are we banning/limiting the use of crumpled sliders in any way?

I do not have a suggestion yet to clarify this rule, so please discuss. If it would help, give me an example of an unrankable slider according to this rule.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
This sort of thing seems to tie in with sliders overlapping themselves. However, in effective use, the number of people that consider it unrankable are split fairly evenly - it's a very viable thing to do if the music fits, but is often used poorly and in a manner that's hard to read (especially with the superior mmsliders)

In my personal opinion, it's a viable mapping technique that just needs people to pay closer attention to them to make sure they're not poorly done. (pretty much like any other technique.


If you can manage to have something like 1/2 slider -> 1/1 slider wiggled to the same length as the 1/2, I would 100% suggest that you have tick rate 2 (based off THE REST OF THE MAP) to make it even more readable. MoonFragrance is a huge user of this technique and he executes it perfectly more often than not.


Suggestion: scrap rule entirely, possibly leave a note in guidelines to older/non-new mappers that the technique is now okay within reason.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Crumpled sliders are not unrankable as they are, more like making them waaaaay too crumpled makes them unrankable because it becomes extremely slow and is a way around the slider speed limit that prevents hold sliders, as the rule says AIMod will catch any slider of these, so if AIMod says nothing, it's probably ok
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Why not make this a guideline? there are many cases that an appropriate mapping make the things this rule prevent be much, much, much fun to play.
Add the hold circles and the hold sliders feature... isn't that simple?
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Or simply, don't crumple sliders so badly that it causes aimod to barf.

HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
AIMod can sometime barf with a well-done slider too, actually. I remember modding one map where the AIMod said it, but the slider played in a cool way...

SPOILER
You should actually see it before saying anything

but yes... that one you posted would be unplayable
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Ah, this one is contained here

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
the path of the sliders that have a strange path, won't actually even be "clear".
So there's actually no need of this
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

Ah, this one is contained here

Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
the path of the sliders that have a strange path, won't actually even be "clear".
So there's actually no need of this
Actually it is clear, what isn't clear is the speed of the slider which is what this rule is trying to prevent from happening
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
then the slider mm posted have a clear path?
There aren't "clear" ways of slowing a slider other than the pretty readable zigzag.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
The speed of the slider can be read using tick spacing. The problem is when the slider uncrinkles and speeds up, or if the crinkling is done to an extreme.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
if the crinkle is extreme, the slider won't even be readable actually ...
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
you have to read velocity. sliders that overlap themselves will change the velocity, and thus become "unreadable" according to haku's rule.

I'm not convinced we need the slider anchor/node rule at all. It's not banning anything that isn't already banned by haku's rule.

edit because it's not worth a post: yes I know haku, I just didn't want to type out the name.
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
the rule I posted is actually the one posted in the draft
FireballFlame
280 posts
Joined May 2010
FireballFlame
I am strongly against this rule.

I've always seen changing slider speeds though crumpled sliders as a nice option to have. Not an "abuse of the hitobject's intended use" but an enhancement. Of course it can also be overdone, making them confusing, but in most cases I've seen, they are an easy-to-read and fun-to-play alternative to changing the slider speed using an inherited section. Actually, they can be even easier to read, because the optical clue is stronger, being a "thicker" slider in addition to the ticks.
Maybe even more importantly, they make it possible to change speed mid-slider, which, when used right, is great fun to play while being perfectly readable. For example, take a look at the last slider in Krison's Insane diff on this map, or the slow section after the break in this one.

The rule, the way it is currently phrased now and being a rule, would ban these things in the future, which I consider a needless loss.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
There's no need for a rule that is contained in another, actually. Needless to say, manipulating speed with slider, burai or even crunched up sliders aren't abuse of the object intended use but, correct use of the pbject intended use (giving a feel of the part the slider is following by making use of some particular shapes).

Slider anchors/nodes must not be used to manipulate slider speeds (whether they are normal nodes or red ones). Using extra nodes to make a slider "wiggle" is usually fine, but using so many that the slider gets scrunched up (which also makes the sliderball go crazy) or become a "hold slider" is abuse of the hitobject's intended use and is not allowed. AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) will also point out sliders that move in an "abnormal" way, so make sure to check that if you're unsure of a slider.
+
Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
=
Sliders have to be readable by just seeing the path and/or listening to the music. Slider which move in an way that is ambiguos to the eye and to the ear cannot be used, as their appearance will be needlessly confusing to play. AIMod do point out some sldier that move in a really abnormal way, and giv eyou a way to check if you're using strange sliders.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

There's no need for a rule that is contained in another, actually. Needless to say, manipulating speed with slider, burai or even crunched up sliders aren't abuse of the object intended use but, correct use of the pbject intended use (giving a feel of the part the slider is following by making use of some particular shapes).

Slider anchors/nodes must not be used to manipulate slider speeds (whether they are normal nodes or red ones). Using extra nodes to make a slider "wiggle" is usually fine, but using so many that the slider gets scrunched up (which also makes the sliderball go crazy) or become a "hold slider" is abuse of the hitobject's intended use and is not allowed. AIMod (shortcut ctrl+shift+a) will also point out sliders that move in an "abnormal" way, so make sure to check that if you're unsure of a slider.
+
Every slider must have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end. Sliders which overlap themselves in a way that makes any section unreadable or ambiguous (including "burai sliders") cannot be used. This is so that no slider has an appearance that is confusing or impossible for the player to read. Additionally, the slider borders must never be covered up from the slider being packed in too tightly. However, sliders that cross over themselves are fine as long as the borders are clearly visible.
=
Sliders have to be readable by just seeing the path and/or listening to the music. Slider which move in an way that is ambiguos to the eye and to the ear cannot be used, as their appearance will be needlessly confusing to play. AIMod do point out some sldier that move in a really abnormal way, and giv eyou a way to check if you're using strange sliders.
Nuke this rule, use the 2nd one (already in). The sliders the first rule is preventing are what the 2nd rule prevents as well. Add in the AImod warnings as well.

The combination of the two is unnecessary, and I don't like the wording.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
I don't see what's the point in nuking this rule, are you saying that a slider should be allowed to wiggle enough to attain slider speeds lower than 0.5x?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
sliders that wiggle to attain slider speeds lower than 0.5x do not have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end.
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc

ziin wrote:

sliders that wiggle to attain slider speeds lower than 0.5x do not have a clear and visible path to follow from start to end.
are you sure
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
yep

post an example otherwise
ouranhshc
2,338 posts
Joined July 2009
ouranhshc
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
That's not obvious to a player who hasn't seen that kind of slider before.
Jarby
2,963 posts
Joined August 2008
Jarby

mm201 wrote:

That's not obvious to a player who hasn't seen that kind of slider before.
The approach circle on sliders is so big that it defeats the purpose. You'd have to throw your hand away from it completely (perhaps in fear) to miss it.
Wishy
2,974 posts
Joined September 2010
Wishy
Make this a guide-line, there are tons of sliders which path isn't "clearly" readable and still the play just fine. Super slow sliders can sometimes just fit the song, using slider speeds below x0,5, or x50000, if it fits the music/plays good it should be accepted.

Using as an excuse "some players may not read it!" is idiotic. Having to remove a possible good option for a map because some players might not understand them sounds completely retarded to me.

You know what? Most players can't see/understand/read a shit on maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/41823. Should then AR 10 be unrankable? Nope, and trust me even if you present with some weird slider where the path is hard to read (as those sliders With a Dance Number had before rank), you can still read them at first-sight by looking at the slider-ticks. Still this could be abused and making it a guide-line would be the best.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

ouranhshc wrote:

yet it'll be covered by the other rule

So this rule can be deleted.
Ps: the slider is so crunched to be half the lenght. Usually a fine (grid 4) zigzag produce a tremble and the slider is about like a 0,75x linear of the same lenght.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Jarby wrote:

mm201 wrote:

That's not obvious to a player who hasn't seen that kind of slider before.
The approach circle on sliders is so big that it defeats the purpose. You'd have to throw your hand away from it completely (perhaps in fear) to miss it.
I dunno; I've found myself being confused by that sort of slider, because I wasn't sure for how long I needed to hold left click. Ergo, I'd end up not completing the slider. That slider would feel like crap to play anyway and, without a longer release after the crumple, I don't see why it should exist.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

D33d wrote:

I dunno; I've found myself being confused by that sort of slider, because I wasn't sure for how long I needed to hold left click.
Then hold left click until forever and use right click on the next note. That's not the slider's problem; it's seemingly yours.

I was recently told to change two of my sliders for my current bubbled map because it won't be ranked otherwise. The slider played very well with the vocals, but I was told the bubbled would be popped even if the map was bubbled with the slider that was slow for the first 20% and resumed with normal sv afterwards. The path was clearly visible too.

All in all, this should be no more than just a guideline. One can easily know if a slider is unrankable based on intuition.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

those wrote:

D33d wrote:

I dunno; I've found myself being confused by that sort of slider, because I wasn't sure for how long I needed to hold left click.
Then hold left click until forever and use right click on the next note. That's not the slider's problem; it's seemingly yours.
Holding onto a slider and wondering when it will end does not constitute good gameplay. The player shouldn't be forced to guess. It should be obvious when a slider ends. This should be common sense, but much of the community appears to be devoid of it.
Cheer-no
Cheer-no
For what it's worth, I find mild crinkling to be 100% readable, especially with peppysliders. It doesn't slow down the sliderball too much, but it's something:


mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Those sliders are rankable.
I agree this rule is generally redundant given the other one requiring an obvious path.

those wrote:

Then hold left click until forever and use right click on the next note. That's not the slider's problem; it's seemingly yours.
The statement I made is that it's unreadable to someone who hasn't seen that trick done before. Anyone who's played this game for more than a couple months has surely run into it, and I would assume that Deed has and is able to play these sliders.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

D33d wrote:

those wrote:

Then hold left click until forever and use right click on the next note. That's not the slider's problem; it's seemingly yours.
Holding onto a slider and wondering when it will end does not constitute good gameplay. The player shouldn't be forced to guess. It should be obvious when a slider ends. This should be common sense, but much of the community appears to be devoid of it.
common sense in a rhythmn game IS guessing.

Guessing how the mapper interpreted the map while playing.

Seeing how some rule even defeats the purpose of calling a game "rhythmn game", I can maybe stop posting in those discussion ( but I can't do like other that abandoned teaching turtles to run like jaguars )
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Common sense in a rythm game is rythm, not guessing.

You shouldn't need to guess when to hit circles/sliders (nor even guess if a note is a circle or a slider) nor the path or when the slider ends.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

common sense in a rhythmn game IS guessing.

Guessing how the mapper interpreted the map while playing.

Seeing how some rule even defeats the purpose of calling a game "rhythmn game", I can maybe stop posting in those discussion ( but I can't do like other that abandoned teaching turtles to run like jaguars )
Theory: Readability
You are entitled to your opinion disagreeing with readability, but don't call people idiots for wanting the game to be readable.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
well, you "saintly" know the rhythmn of a map without guessing it.
The knownledge of the rhythmn of a map should descend from the sky, and the rhythmn in maps (all) should be the same. If common sense isn't guessing.
You unknowingly say "readable or not" without playing? you know the rhythmn of a map without playing? Guess is a NO.
So you really try to guess the rhythmn of a map while playing
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
Did you even read the thread? It clearly shows how most gameplay elements are readable with no guesswork.
I guess it's no use arguing with a brick wall.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
what you call guesswork is maybe heavy though.
So:
You can read a map without guessing how the element will be used
(guessing is a synonim of understanding, in osu! case, reading should mean understand)
You can understand a map without understanding ...
(uh? let's be more obvious, by using books)
You can read a book without understanding it.

Obvious contraddiction is obvious

going offtopic, and we're all agreeing this rule can be deleted as it's arleady covered by another rule
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Guessing isn't a synonim of understanding, guessing means that you have no idea what you need to do and you need to try a random guess and see if you hit or miss.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
guess is a instinctive type of understading, basically.
while guessing, you suppose something using your imagination
while understanding, you realize something using your intellect

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now

Off topic, close the discussion as a general consense about "deleting as it's arleady contained in another rule" has been reached
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now
This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Guess isn't "seeing whats rankable" as far I know...

Seeing whats rankable and whatsnot is NOT guessing the rhythmn and the placement are linked
the current standard is the current draft of the new rules, as it's being applied

but yeah, it's goin' offtopic
Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke

D33d wrote:

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

I think Guess is more adapted to osu! even more now
This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
No, maps are getting better. Always have, ever since osu! started. Stop bitching. If you don't like some maps, then fucking live with it and it's your problem.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Natteke wrote:

D33d wrote:

This is why current standards suck. Maps are making less and less sense and it needs to stop. Mods need to be less about what is "rankable" and more about what is as far from ambiguous as possible, within reason.
No, maps are getting better. Always have, ever since osu! started. Stop bitching. If you don't like some maps, then fucking live with it and it's your problem.
I hold my hands up--I made a rather heated and clunky blanket statement. However, bad habits have crept into osu! and they're more common than they should be. It's pretty bad, yo. Lots of maps do feel like guesswork, simply because they're so inconsistent.

Aaaah also, if everybody "fucking lived with it," then I'm pretty sure that standards really would go out of the window. It's more than "some maps" which annoy those who matter, so it's clearly a problem. Please don't be so aggressive.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
guesswork DON'T means inconsistence. If a map need GUESSWORK it's consistent.
It's when a map don't need guesswork, but only "to read the places where circles appears" that it is inconsistent.
Old map had bad graphics, and most had bad consistency. But some map were fun to play, because the beatmap was really done to be played with some guesswork.
Now some rules even take off some good things (only some) but yet the only a small part of them need to be better.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

HakuNoKaemi wrote:

guesswork DON'T means inconsistence. If a map need GUESSWORK it's consistent.
It's when a map don't need guesswork, but only "to read the places where circles appears" that it is inconsistent.
Wait, what?
Could you please elaborate on this, because I don't get it...
If it's consistent, it means patterns, rhythms etc follow a larger pattern and thus can be sightread without guessing even if the isolated pattern would be considered borderline unreadable. If it's inconsistent you may need to guess because there's no clue how the map will behave. Yet you are claiming the complete opposite.
Also, I don't think you get that consistency does not mean the map must be repetitive - It just needs to follow a discernible train of thought. If it's seriously inconsistent, in most cases that means the map makes little to no sense.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
a map which can't be played by just guessing the rhythmn ( or by reflexes, for the peoples with ever-fast reflexes or ultrapro peoples ) and the placement, it's a map that isn't consistent and isn't readable while playing. You usually guess the easiest path while playing sliders, as example, or even think guess the time when you should click by listening to music and seeing the approach on map and guessing ithe distance.
A Guessable map is consistent because you can "imagine" where circle will appear, when to click and so, a map that is impossible to guess, mean that you can't imagine where to click or even when to click
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I think the word you are looking for is "intuitive". If a map is intuitive, it's more than likely readable.
"Guesswork" implies randomness, which is not readable
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
HakuNoKaemi please look up what "Guessing" or "Guesswork" means before posting again in here because your posts make no sense lately
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
No, he has a point. Bandying around words such as "guesswork" implies that there's not enough in the map's presentation to make it playable. Good maps are intuitive, which don't make the player guess what should happen next. Things such as barely readable sliders and dodgy jumps often lean more towards guessing. If experienced players can read maps which have lots of varying mid-phrase jumps and ambiguous sliders, then a map's right for that group. However, what's readable for them might not be as readable to others. The main thing with making a map immediately intuitive is that there's little guesswork needed.

Of course, a map can have some funky elements to make the player think a bit, as long as they're consistent and the map's lenient enough to let the player get used to them. That turns "guesswork" into "intuitive," especially when something's used to imply a change in style.
Luna
2,355 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
I agree with what you said, D33d, but Haku's post still makes no sense since he claims that maps are readable/consistent if guesswork is required. I assume he just doesn't understand the full meaning of the word but that changes nothing about the fact that it makes no sense.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
If you can't guess what's next, a maps isn't playable. If you can, a map is playable.To Guess means to Assume something by knowing little infos about it.
Guesswork is basically a work of guess ( a work assumed with little infos), and it's a simple synonymous of guess.
You are using the wrong word, as Guess isn't something random, if something is so easy to be assumed with little to no infos, so if while playing you can't guess (aka understand easily) what's next, a map won't be intuitive.
Search a word for "impossible to understand" and it will have the same meaning as random/not intuitive.
Something incomprehensible, abstruse isn't consistent. But something guessable is.
Last edited by HakuNoKaemi , edited 1 time in total.
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