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posted
Hello ladies and gentlemen, these past few days I've been noticing stuff about the taiko community I'm not awfully satisfied with at the moment, I'm not going to claim I'm right on this but this is what it feels like from my observation. Hopefully this can lead to something that can make people happier about the game mode.

First off I'm going to mention what you guys may have already predicted: Gimmick maps in TWC... Now I'm not going to say that this was necessarily a bad idea but I can say for sure that a lot of people are unhappy about this and I am one of them. What is wrong with gimmick maps in TWC? Well, not necessarily anything however they test different skillsets in taiko which is what the staff seems to be happy about with these gimmick maps...

However I'm not awfully fond of it, and many others aren't, the problem with these gimmick maps is as I said they check different skillsets in the game, which sounds good and all, however it is bound to scare some players away and perhaps even ruin the tournament for some. It's the same as introducing FL into TWC or even making songs that don't fit to the music cause that's a "skill".

Why are most people against FL and songs that don't fit the song? I'll tell you, it's because they don't find it fun, and it's the same with gimmick maps. Is it wrong to use gimmick maps because some people don't enjoy it or should everyone else grow a bone and accept it? Well, this is where I can't say right from wrong. However I think it's something people should pay attention to, if you're going to include unrankable maps in TWC, at the very least put a disclaimer in the rules page or something! (actually there might be one, I hope so but I haven't checked)... I think this goes over how I feel about gimmick/unrankable maps in TWC, sorry if I missed anything. In any case if I can't convince you to not use gimmick maps, we'll see how the TWC endures with them, I think TWC is something that should be welcome to about any taiko player, if you need tournaments with gimmick maps, take them somewhere else than TWC.



Secondly I'd like to go over modding, I can't say anyone is at fault here or anything but lately I feel like every map looks the same, maps are modded to fit this made up criteria which has been ingrained in everyone. This tends to lead to really uninteresting maps cause they're all the same, and makes it pretty undistinguishable who made the map... Why bother mapping for rank if the end result could have been made the same by anyone?

This might not be easy to fix and I don't have much to say on it, and you can say that mappers consent to this by accepting these mods, but is this really healthy for the game? I think these things that look like "flaws" should be accepted more frequently cause for all we know, they're not even flaws. Look at older maps and you'll see they're way more unique and interesting than newer maps imo (ignoring that we have some really hard maps now). In a sense you could say we've become too "good" at modding, but this makes everything look robotic and uninteresting.


Oh well that's all I had to say I think, if you have something constructive to say, do post. I don't think this will change much but I kinda hope so. Sorry if my writing was too hard to read, I'm not used to writing long essays.
posted
Gimmicks do test a different skillset but so do tech and speed maps. There's also maps in TWC that don't fit the music (hi primula / specific spot in the middle of pavor nocturnus). IMO Gimmicks have a place along with the other skills or else certain teams / players become far too dominant. Players who get scared away by one, at most two gimmick maps in a pool likely would have not gotten too far anyways as many of the gimmick maps are easier to play than the other maps provided in a pool.

As for modding I don't really follow the mapping scene much anymore but I'd imagine a large part of maps being the same is that there isn't a whole lot that can be done barring SV and gimmicks to make taiko "unique". SV is already used in some maps and a lot of gimmicks are currently not allowed in ranked simply because of how they abuse the editor. This leads to a lot of the maps being very similar in mapping style. There's not really a whole lot that can be done here IMHO but I'm sure someone will have a different opinion on the subject.
posted
For modding theres not much to do

Its just that since its probably what gives more pp
i mean, from what i see, theres been a bit of a rise of pp maps, and generally these are the ones that players like to prefer
so mappers act accordingly, or thats what i understand from verto's video

So far, one of the only ways to make something unique, is to change one's mapping style, for example KamizonoShinobu's style is pretty different from the other mappers like Chromoxx, just like Chromoxx's different from mine, but either mappers' beatmaps are very enjoyable for many players
But since most of the time people prefer something monotonous for pp, not much is done to make something different, because it pleases the public

Innovation is kinda dead when everyone prefers the same thing, so if we change, then probably the mappers will
posted
SV and gimmicks aren't necessary to make a map unique, just look at old maps which were made when modding was a lot less strict than now. PP is completely unreleated to what I'm talking about however I do think it has a negative effect on mapping as well.
posted
When I look at old maps I don't see anything unique about them compared to what we have today other than 1/6 not being used nearly as much and SV not being something common. 1/6 isn't "pp mapping" in all cases. Literally the only reason that old maps didn't do this stuff was the player skill back then was significantly lower and the old ranking criteria was very limiting in what was allowed in an attempt to mimic what Taiko no Tatsujin did.

I'd highly recommend looking at some of the unranked maps from 2011/2012. Many of them did things like we do today minus some of the gimmicks we've seen in more recent years.
posted
disagree, you can more or less guess who the mapper is in 2012~, in 2018 most (ranked) maps are entirely in the same style to the point where it's almost undistinguishable. I literally don't care about the increase in 1/6 or amount of SV being increased.

My problem is that modding has become too strict, I think mappers even limit themselves in what they map which is very well quality just to be agreeable to modders and whoever may rank the map.

I don't know about you but I'm not inclined to rank anything when it literally does not matter who maps for rank, the result will always be the same.
posted

Trapmaniac wrote:

Hello ladies and gentlemen, these past few days I've been noticing stuff about the taiko community I'm not awfully satisfied with at the moment, I'm not going to claim I'm right on this but this is what it feels like from my observation. Hopefully this can lead to something that can make people happier about the game mode.[...]
About gimmick maps being in the TWC, I don't really care too much for TWC so I'm not really aware of what they do look for in their mappool...
In my own approach to the matter, I think that official tournaments should be played with official maps of official songs specifically designed for the event. This is not a new idea, most other major rhythm games were doing this for more than 10 years now... If anything, about gimmick in TWC I'd say the players should be warned beforehand, since there are a huge portion of the playerbase which are not interested on gimmick maps and have very little experience playing that kind of stuff.

About modding, well, this is a bit more of my concern...
Modding has become so mechanical that even lately guidelines are being enforced as rules by some modders.
And I've found myself feeling that a lot of maps look the same, mostly the kind of 170~200 bpm anime rock songs, they all use the same patterns, and in a general point of view, players have become so used to the "standarized patterns" of these days.
Also, other thing I'm seeing here is that making a hard chart is kinda mandatory nowadays, like, I see lots of songs that aren't worth for more than 3* Oni yet we have a bunch of them being 5* with the [vocalmapping+made up beats] formula... That kinda makes them uninteresting to me, also, add the modding on these maps that changes a lot of patterns into being "more smooth", "playing better"...
Now that I meantion it... That another thing I don't really like about the modding scene... Maps are being specifically created to be easy to play with DT sometimes, yet they make patterns that don't make sense with the music and the mapper says "this plays better", as enforcing the idea of [patterns that players are most used to=better]--- The other scenario is that modders when you do some non-standard pattern in your maps they tell you to change them for patterns that "play better" ...

karterfreak wrote:

When I look at old maps I don't see anything unique about them compared to what we have today [...]
Modding back then was not as exaggerated as it is today that we have a really solid mapping meta established... You can say the meta was Taiko no Tatsujin back then, but TnT had (and still have nowadays) various different charting styles, so the "TnT meta" had more freedom...
Nowadays you have some of the most active modders telling mappers stuff like "your patterns are super ugly" or "your idea is stupid" just because they don't fit the idea of quality, and I'm not really complaining about that as if it was a huge problem because I know that the osu!std modding community is far close-minded than the Taiko one, but let's not pretend everything works perfectly.
posted
Bumping this to say that I genuinely think taiko community is falling into some sort of dictatorship. I kinda hope something will happen but I have little faith at this point.

I think the BN system is pretty bad, becoming a BN feels like it requires an unnecessary amount of work only allowing the most dedicated people in. Unfortunately I frankly don't think the way it is now really makes "quality" BNs come in, just people who can be bothered with this annoying way of getting in. I'm sorry if you feel criticized as a BN but honestly I feel this is necessary if this community is to improve. You might ask me "is the community really needing in improvement?" in which I'll say, do you really think all the people complaining about the way it is now are just complaining over nothing? Have you not noticed how many people in general complain about maps these days being stripped of creativity etc. when being ranked? People complain a lot here, and I think a lot of it is valid and has a solution (I'm not saying everyone complaining is necessarily correct, although I think something could be done regardless to "fix" their complaints)

I'm sorry if this looks like me starting drama for no reason, however I strongly believe I have reason to say this. It is not my job to fix this and honestly I'm not sure what the best solution is, but I'd be thankful if you actually saw something in my criticism.
posted
I 100% agree. The taiko community, especially the mapping community, is in an absolutely horrible state. Most of the the BNs are lazy, and the ones that are active, most of them prefer to check their friends' maps instead of new mappers that are working hard to get their maps out there. Quality control on maps has been horrendous, we have mappers getting maps ranked which can barely be played normally and require extra mods to help them even pass those maps, nevermind FC them. Mapping has become the same thing for everyone this year. It's like it's a contest to see who can rank the most inflated marathon possible (Backfire is winning it, congrats, but I think Nepuri might just beat you there with his Scattered Faith map, which has a cool SR of 10*!!!) Speaking of that map, a BN has just nominated it, knowing fully well that the map is almost impossible to play, and it just shows you the low standards that the BNG (not all of you) has resorted to.

All in all, I believe the BNG needs to be more active, and the way to do that is to make it easier for people to get into the BNG, since I know there are many, many modders who would love to take the role that most of the current BNs have not succeeded in taking on, and the QATs really need to kick the ones who are inactive. I won't name and shame, but you know exactly who they are. Speaking of which, I told a QAT member about a certain BN who had literally no activity and asked them what they could do about it, and their response was "idk i dont stalk them". I mean that just goes to show you how much they care about the taiko community. We're letting useless BNs just sit there with that badge they have and not doing anything about it. There is no creativity in mapping anymore, and great maps are rotting in the graveyard section because of the overall laziness of the BNG.
posted
I want to advise everyone to stay within Forum rules in this thread.
Please keep it civilised: https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Rules

Passive-Agressivity has no place here, incase this might get more heated.
posted
>sends me the rules page and tells me to stop being "passive-agressive" because he knows what I said is true
Learn to not be offended by some text please thanks
posted
linking the rules.. being professional is lame :roll::roll:

i wanted to comment on this thread with a few of my thoughts as well. (Not Heated, Genuine Concerns)

_DUSK_ wrote:

All in all, I believe the BNG needs to be more active,
i strongly agree with this. although they already kicked 3 for inactivity recently and a few others the previous cycle, i still see at least 2 more who havent done any bng work in a while. i always wonder how they are still bn even when they dont nominate maps for months?

i see a nomination feed from a discord im in and its 70% of the time the same mapper with the same nominators. everyone knows the issue with 'circlejerking' but now that the bng is as ded as ever its even more noticeable. the player base doesnt care (i think?) so its not an issue for them, but its an issue for mappers who want to get stuff ranked but arent getting a chance.

when i was a new mapper i pmed my map to every bn in the group at the time and 3/4 rather didnt reply or said no. i still get this today but its all ignores this time this really is a sad thing for new people who have potential but are being ignored because they are new. id really like every bn to be more open with requests and not stay hidden and maybe open them once every 2 months... the BN title is supposed to be a hefty job. so getting a good amount of requests shouldnt be an issue. also how hard is it to reply back.. seriously. just a simple yes or no cant be that hard.

nifty is a good example of an active bn. im glad he is in now because he is actually using his queue for anyone to post on. ofc with queues tho you can get denied, but then you can try again. with sending PMs or ingame msgs, for me, it makes me think im being a bother. "this person msging me again? i already denied them once to their face i dont want to do it again." this is what goes through my head when thinking about pming a bn for a map check. with a queue, its more public and you can see other people rqing too and makes it feel less 1on1.

(basically that whole paragraph is to tell bns to open queues because, news flash, mappers (especially new ones) use the modding queue forums.)

i myself dont even want to try to rank stuff anymore with the current bng. i feel as i have no chance with the.. what.. 4/5 active people? rather my song choice isnt to their liking or I'M not to their liking.

finals thoughts/tl;dr: the bng is ded, BNs should open queues more often, and be willing to help new mappers maps.
BNs should quit being exclusive and actually be active for a dying community that they hold a helpful title for.


i of course have no fixes for anything but i wish for a change eventually. hoping the next taiko bn cycle is promising and gives people (including myself) a lot more options than what is available now. (was hoping for at least 5 last time and only got 2 :/ )
posted
Hello,

I don't know much about gimmick maps for TWC.

However, regarding your modding concern, I also think we should be really careful with what we've been imposed.

"Perfection is boring". This is literally the issue here. A map that contains flaws can be good. And will actually be remembered longer because it would be recognized as something that was mapped by a "human" and not by some sort of software that would filter and "normalize" all maps in order to be some kind of "clones" of each others ...

You could say that "at the end QAT will judge so there's no problem" and in some cases it's, indeed, kind of "ok" because we know how "mapping" works... But for a total newbie, that would be like unnecessarily forcing his own idea to someone, and that shouldn't happen, especially from an experienced modder on an ending project. That would be -extremely- demotivating.

Regarding BNs activity, I must say... it's a disaster, and from the 2 words I exchanged with Raiden, QAT themselves don't seem to realize how atrophied their BN team is. Concretely, there's only 4 BNs that don't have their queue closed, and only 2 will judge from the map and not from the song before even downloading it. Adding to this, some BNs got kicked lately (or some others put on probation...) but the next cycle is yet far... So once more, the execution was a a failure.

I wish the best for this community =w=
posted

Yales wrote:

"Perfection is boring". This is literally the issue here. A map that contains flaws can be good.
No. It cant. You must obediently follow the rules and map things that play well, and is worth pp. Anything thats a gimmick, plays the other way than the meta maps, or are subjective IS bad, and should be normalized to look like other maps, so all the things will have maximum quality.

Just get rid of any ideas you had about the map, since they are subjective, dont use SV when unnecessary, because some people dont like it, make patterns playable to the fullest, since anything that play weird is uncomfortable, of course make the map gives pp points by adding a stream or two mixed with 1/6 quadruples, no one wants to play balanced map more than once, and you are fine to go for ranking. Try anything other and youll have to change it.

Didnt even want to respond in this topic, but i had to after seeing what Yales wrote.
If someone didnt get it. It meant to be satire...
posted
taiko sucks
posted
taiko sucks
posted

n1doking wrote:

taiko sucks

karterfreak wrote:

taiko sucks
posted

vrnl wrote:

n1doking wrote:

taiko sucks

karterfreak wrote:

taiko sucks
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