Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Mapping Discussion
  4. Ranking Criteria
  5. Finalized/Denied Amendments

[Rule] Hitobjects must never be off-screen

posted
Total Posts
21
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Current Rule:
Hitobjects must never be off-screen. All mapsets are played from a fixed-screen viewpoint, so any hitobjects that are even partially off-screen can make it very difficult to read the pattern they are following. Test play your map to confirm this.

Suggested change:
The center of all hitobjects must never be outside the grid. This includes the centerline and endpoint of sliders. All mapsets are played from a fixed-screen viewpoint, so any hitobjects that are out of bounds run the risk of going off the edge of the screen in nonstandard modes of play.

Easy mod troubles



hard rock


Why this change?
A) The grid exists for a reason. Use it.
B) The current rule serves some purpose. That purpose should be extended to all modes of play at the minimum.
C) off grid sliders can be impossible in CTB. inb4 nobody cares about CTB. fuck you; I care.
D) The only reason the editor can handle negative x and y values is due to beziers and scale/rotate compatibility.

Isn't this overkill?
probably, but IMO if you can't place a circle there, you shouldn't be able to place a slider repeat there, or the middle of the slider there either. In fact, due to the grid being moved down 5 pixels in 1024x768, if you end up with a circle size 2.5 or less (only possible on easy difficulty) and put notes at the very bottom edge, they will be off screen.
more easy
So even following the grid isn't fool proof.

Who does this affect mostly?
symmetry mappers who want to use the whole screen.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
The CTB thing is a bug and only affects the most extreme of cases anyway.
Easy mod messes up 99% of maps in much worse ways than a hair of offscreenage.
No support.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
"It doesn't break anything" doesn't mean "it's perfect".

It never has, and never will. If you're leaving the grid in your map, you're mapping very badly (especially if you complain about "structure", someone skilled can make patterns within the grid).

Leaving the grid is just plain stupid. You might as well just disable the grid entirely if you think you can wave your sliders in and outside of it whenever you want.
RandomJibberish
osu! Alumni
1,833 posts
Joined August 2009
RandomJibberish
Personally I'd argue that not using all the available space is silly. I know I've needed to shunt slider tracks off the sides of the grid to accommodate patterns that were perfectly fine in every other regard and would have produced ugly overlaps or poor spacing if they were moved inside.

Arguably the grid should be a couple grids wider to accommodate the sides of the screen better, but for now the current rule makes most sense and prevents what the rule is designed to prevent - offscreen objects.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I agree with widening the playfield by two lv3 grids (16 osupixels) on each side. Then we can require slider tracks to never leave the grid.
As it is, sliders that leave the grid by no more than this amount don't cause any issues so shouldn't be banned.

We can bump that to 3 grids if the CTB issue is fixed.
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn

RandomJibberish wrote:

I know I've needed to shunt slider tracks off the sides of the grid to accommodate patterns that were perfectly fine in every other regard and would have produced ugly overlaps or poor spacing if they were moved inside.
Then that's your fault, not the grid's.

The ctb issue is easily fixed by mapping within the already placed boundaries. I'll stop beating around the bush and say my opinion clearly:

Any and all mapping techniques that require any note or slidertrack leaving the current boundaries of the mapping grid are inefficient, wasteful, and as a result are incompetent.

A skilled painter would not tape on extra material to his canvas,
A skilled gamer would not cheat by leaving a boss arena.



EDIT: I'm okay with mm201's suggestion.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
I don't see a problem with slider tracks leaving the grid, as long as they don't go too close to the edge of the screen for comfort. Even so, if a pattern already looks very good and very playable during actual gameplay, then splitting hairs over technicalities shouldn't be given the time of day.

Obviously, if a mapper keeps shunting sliders way off the grid for no reason, then they shouldn't have anything going off the grid. In summation, if it looks unreasonable, then it is.

DEEDIT: RJ, post screenshots of you leaving the grid with good reason. That way, people can see how it can actually work. I definitely agree with widening the grid, because the size is a bit too restrictive, given that there is a lot of space around the grid.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

RandomJibberish wrote:

I know I've needed to shunt slider tracks off the sides of the grid to accommodate patterns that were perfectly fine in every other regard and would have produced ugly overlaps or poor spacing if they were moved inside.
You obviously did not exhaust all of the possibilities.

RandomJibberish wrote:

Arguably the grid should be a couple grids wider to accommodate the sides of the screen better, but for now the current rule makes most sense and prevents what the rule is designed to prevent - offscreen objects.
The grid should be designed so that circle size 0 is exactly on the corner of the screen.

The current rule does not account for CTB, Hard Rock, or Easy. Saying these are "special cases" and can be dealt with accordingly is very tedious and will take a long time to come into effect because of the myriad of modes you have to try out and the inability of mod usage in test play. Saying these modes are "optional" or "unofficial" is enough to make me want them removed or unranked.

The CTB issue is due to the fact that ryuuta can't go further than x=0 and x=512. There are 64 osupixels on each side that ryuuta can't "hit". His plate has width, however, and simply ensuring that he can hit -10 and 522 on circle size 3, -22 and 534 on circle size 5, etc... would fix the CTB element.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
We don't need to accommodate larger than CS3 + Easy. Even then, I'd consider Easy mod irrelevant since the issue is little more than a slight cosmetic thing that hardly anyone will see.
The CTB thing is a bug.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
Grid size should be changed by:
(in Grid Size 2)
-1 bottom
+1 top
+1 on sides

to make the two rules the same. (CS3+easy should be CS1)

They are offscreen if they are off the wallpaper you're using usually.

Ah, actually the example of Easy mod in Gonz screenshot it's actually only the border. so it's a case by case.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
It's wrong to put something in a place that you can't put a circle, or even worse a slider that you can't reverse.

CS3+easy is cs 1.5. CS 0 would give a good buffer.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi
CS 0 isn't even used by the game anyway. If it's CS 1.5, CS 1 is a good way of measuring that. too withe the grid area that is a bit more on the bottom than the top (This caused the HD flipping outbounding).

It's more that the grid area need to be enlarged, to make it more applicable.

The case you pointed are really borderline though >.< (only the border is offscreen). But if in those cases the Offscreen Slider Bug during CtB appears, then it's the developer fault not giving enough to that problem.

I would not support this if the grid remain like it is now.
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d

Shiirn wrote:

Then that's your fault, not the grid's.

The ctb issue is easily fixed by mapping within the already placed boundaries. I'll stop beating around the bush and say my opinion clearly:

Any and all mapping techniques that require any note or slidertrack leaving the current boundaries of the mapping grid are inefficient, wasteful, and as a result are incompetent.

A skilled painter would not tape on extra material to his canvas,
A skilled gamer would not cheat by leaving a boss arena.
I just want to address this more specifically, because the wording of it really rubs me the wrong way. It is the grid's fault that sliders sometimes need to creep out of it, because it is very restrictive and it finishes nowhere near the sides of the screen. A tank could get past an object that's placed at the edge of the grid.

Mapping techniques which push objects out of the grid, with the grid as it is, are entirely the opposite of inefficient and wasteful. They make use of as much of the actual playing field as possible. As a result, your analogies are poor and irrelevant for the given reason.

I realise that you agree with the grid being too small, but please, as a MAT, be less bloody minded when you address this sort of thing. RJ maps very sensibly and doesn't work around restrictions without good reason. Hell, I do it myself. Whatever looks decent during gameplay and without mods should be acceptable--mods are extraneous and it's not stipulated that the mapper should have every mod in mind. That would be far too restrictive.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin

D33d wrote:

mods are extraneous and it's not stipulated that the mapper should have every mod in mind. That would be far too restrictive.
Hence the point of the rule. The fact that we can place objects outside the grid is a bug IMO. I know this won't ever become a rule, regardless of how I feel about it, so with any luck we can get the grid fixed, or at least bring to the attention of the abusers of this bug that it is a problem and should be avoided whenever possible.
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I would like to make this a rule, honestly, although I thought it was obvious. The rule needs to mention any sliderpoints though, not just the first and last ones.
peppy
19,318 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
Hit objects should never leave the screen. There is no reason for discussion on this in my eyes.
Luvdic
2,113 posts
Joined July 2009
Luvdic
What ziin is trying to discuss is not about allowing objects to be offscreen, but something more strict, by having all objects to be always inside the grid field. Why? Because some sliders can manage to have some portions of it to be outside of the grid field (while still being on screen), that may cause some bugs, such as a slider with a portion extended a bit to the laterals are unreachable in ctb mode.

My opinion about this is that it shouldn't be too strict as what ziin proposes, as long as all objects are reachable in ctb mode, and no objects goes offscreen while using HR mode is good enough for me.
peppy
19,318 posts
Here since the beginning
peppy
I think it would be easier to just fix CtB mode to allow catching fruits in said locations.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
Topic Starter
ziin
Hit objects can leave the screen in easy or hard rock mode when placed poorly. You can also place any part of a slider outside the grid except for the beginning of the slider (which can be achieved by reversing the slider).

Odaril wrote:

I would like to make this a rule, honestly, although I thought it was obvious. The rule needs to mention any sliderpoints though, not just the first and last ones.
I mention the center line of the slider, which would include any slider points.
HakuNoKaemi
3,828 posts
Joined October 2009
HakuNoKaemi

peppy wrote:

I think it would be easier to just fix CtB mode to allow catching fruits in said locations.
There is the NEED to balance better the grid.
There is usable space on the borders and the grid is slightly decentered

(in Grid Size 2)
-1 bottom
+1 top
+1 on sides

are the requested change, for information (in grid size 3, it is the double)

(an example is the Hard Rock mod, which let you see this decentering better)
D33d
1,697 posts
Joined April 2011
D33d
Really, if the grid was enlarged slightly, then we probably wouldn't have anything like this to worry about. It needs to be done.
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
1 / 21